Biker command squads in 6th

[Bjornas]

I thought this subject deserved its own thread instead of being a part of the bikesquad or Khan command squad discussion (if mods don't agree feel free to merge).

 

So with 6th edition around, what has changed for these guys? From what I've gathered on various forums, the major things are that you don't need them all to be unique anymore since you don't allocate wounds in the same way. Second, Plasmaguns > Meltaguns. Third, how much AP2 do they need? Fourth, with the Relic Blade being AP3 it doesn't seem so obvious for the Captain anymore.

 

With this in mind I'm considering this loadout:

 

Captain on Bike w/ Artificier Armour, Relic Blade OR Thunderhammer. 180 pts. ~what do you think, RB or TH?

-Command squad on bikes:

Vet #1: Stormshield, Plasmagun, Powerfist.

Vet #2: Stormshield, Plasmagun, Powerfist. ~maybe this guy could make do with a Poweraxe if you go for a TH on the captain? That would save you some points to buy him a SS

Vet #3: Stormshield, Plasmagun, Lightning Claw. ~Meltabombs?

Vet #4: Stormshield, Plasmagun, Lightning Claw.

Apothecary.

Total: 405 pts, 585 altogether.

 

In my mind they need to be able to take on ANYTHING my opponent throws at them, especially his elites. This depends on the rest of your army ofcourse, but if you use a biker command squad you're not likely to have another hard-hitting CC unit. Some have debated on 4x Poweraxes but I think Lightning Claws + one or two str8 weapons are still the way to go.

 

Thoughts?

[Rage]

Woah! How expensive is that!!!? If that is the only hammer unit in the army then it'll be target 1 for anybody with half a brain and it;ll still die horribly to a 200 pt TH/SS Terminator Unit. Don;t consider the bike squad as the Elite killer, it isn't going to cut it in combat against them. Use Plasma guns to kill the elite stuff and use assault to carve up troops.

 

I've considered using a Captain with Art.Armour and Dual Lightning Claws, not as good as the RB or TH, does give a bonus attack and re-rolls for wounds so still handy for beating down on troops, which is the units roll for me.

 

So I'm considering,

 

Company Champion w/ Power Lance (Cheap power weapon and better ability to hit, also around to challenge squad sergeants and leave the IC to beat down on the rank and file)

Apothecary

3 x Plasma gun

Optional: Company Standard (nothing worse than a bike squad being pinned!)

 

Comes to 265 (280) + 185, still massively expensive but not quite as outrageous!

[Cmdr Shepard]

I agree with Rage, this unit is massively expensive and not only a fire magnet but even an unit with not amazing survivability.

You have just 5 models: even with FNP it's not very difficult to destroy it.

 

I'm trying to build a biker army but I wonder if playing command squad on bikes is an useful choice. They won't be so hard to kill in CC as it seems, especially for CC dedicated units. If you have to keep them away from combat why don't simply put the Captain in a standard bikers squad and charge only after you thinned enemy ranks?

 

Anyway Rage's build seem more reasonable in my opinion. If you want to field a command squad the champion is mandatory so he can accept challanges while your captain take care of the other enemies.

 

Just a note: Bikes cannot be pinned, if I remember correctly.

[Lord Ragnarok]

There was another thread about Kor'sarro, hit and run and a running a command squad with power lances. I really like the idea.

[ShinyRhino]

Just because you can put all that gear on your Command Squad doesn't mean you should. that's WAY too many upgrades for a 5-man unit.

 

First thing to do? Drop half of those plasmaguns. There's not a unit in the game that requires you to shoot eight plasma shots at them, and then follow up with a charge of powerfists and lightning claws. Anything that DOES need such a heavy-handed response is probably slow and you can kite it around with the bikes' 12" movement and 24" shooting range.

 

Every member of every squad that can carry them should now be packing a meltabomb. They're disgustingly easy to hit with now, and brutally effective.

 

Every member with a stormshield is also overkill now that you don't have wound allocation to worry about. Two should suffice.

 

I'd pare the squad down to: plasmagun/stormshield, plasmagun, lightning claw/stormshield, powerfist, apothecary.

[Bjornas]

Woah! How expensive is that!!!? If that is the only hammer unit in the army then it'll be target 1 for anybody with half a brain and it;ll still die horribly to a 200 pt TH/SS Terminator Unit. Don;t consider the bike squad as the Elite killer, it isn't going to cut it in combat against them. Use Plasma guns to kill the elite stuff and use assault to carve up troops.

 

I've considered using a Captain with Art.Armour and Dual Lightning Claws, not as good as the RB or TH, does give a bonus attack and re-rolls for wounds so still handy for beating down on troops, which is the units roll for me.

 

So I'm considering,

 

Company Champion w/ Power Lance (Cheap power weapon and better ability to hit, also around to challenge squad sergeants and leave the IC to beat down on the rank and file)

Apothecary

3 x Plasma gun

Optional: Company Standard (nothing worse than a bike squad being pinned!)

 

Comes to 265 (280) + 185, still massively expensive but not quite as outrageous!

 

It's not outrageous, infact it's been quite common to equip them like that. No Stormshields? Try running your command squad up against 5 Terminators (or basically anything decent in CC) without 3++ saves and AP-negating weapons, it's not gonna work. My squad is only 140 pts more than yours, it's -nothing- for what you get in return.

 

I agree with Rage, this unit is massively expensive and not only a fire magnet but even an unit with not amazing survivability.

You have just 5 models: even with FNP it's not very difficult to destroy it.

 

I'm trying to build a biker army but I wonder if playing command squad on bikes is an useful choice. They won't be so hard to kill in CC as it seems, especially for CC dedicated units. If you have to keep them away from combat why don't simply put the Captain in a standard bikers squad and charge only after you thinned enemy ranks?

 

Anyway Rage's build seem more reasonable in my opinion. If you want to field a command squad the champion is mandatory so he can accept challanges while your captain take care of the other enemies.

 

Just a note: Bikes cannot be pinned, if I remember correctly.

 

It's 6 models :) And no survivability? T5, 3++ save plus FnP is about as much survivability as you can get. And regarding CC, man you underestimate these guys. 3 Relicblade attacks, 6 Powerfist attacks and 6 Lightning Claw attacks? You don't think that's gonna hurt? Don't forget that you blast away beforehand with 4 rapidfiring Plasmaguns aswell.

 

Keep in mind that Rage's squad is still 445 points (mine is 585) and the only real difference between that squad and a standard Biker squad is Feel no Pain. My experience with biker command squads is that it's go big, or go home.

 

/Bjornas

[Rage]

Cmdr Shephard: D'OH! Yeah, you're right. Brain is stuck in neutral!

 

As others have raised 5 FnP bikes is not that survivable, now if you add another Command Sqaud to the mix you now have 10 which becomes alot more survivable just by the virtue of having more, also gives two CC threats instead of jsut one that can be swiftly neutralized. Probably way too expensive for anything below 1850 pts though.

 

My squad is only 140 pts more than yours, it's -nothing- for what you get in return.

 

I wouldn't be charging any Elite CC unit in the game with my command squad, I'd be shooting them to death while staying well clear...Shoot the choppy, Assault the shooty!

 

You will kill anything you touch, I'm happy to admit that but everytime you do you'll get hammered by a whole round of firepower from the rest of the opponents forces after you've wiped out the squad. Take an ideal Vindicator round to the squad, you'll statistically lose 2 dudes, the vindicator has paid back its points...but then when does that ever happen! ;-) Torrent of fire will usually do it and each loss is hard to take because of their expense and the relatively small size of the army to start with.

 

Of course if you tailor the rest of the list to support your assualt then you may be on to something good, I think most of us are looking at standing back and shooting though. At which point I'd say drop the plasma guns, why take them when you should be killing whatever you hit anyway with that amount of attacks or go ShinyRhino's unit as that seems about right for whatever you'll ever need.

 

For 585 pts I'd much rather take Cassius, 5 TH/SS Termies (or Honour Guard) + LR. Sadly it again comes back to the old tale of what your Bike Command squad can do 'I' can do better and cheaper with other units. This is why I've tried to keep mine as cheap as possible and mainly shooting at the moment.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I agree with Rage, this unit is massively expensive and not only a fire magnet but even an unit with not amazing survivability.

You have just 5 models: even with FNP it's not very difficult to destroy it.

 

I'm trying to build a biker army but I wonder if playing command squad on bikes is an useful choice. They won't be so hard to kill in CC as it seems, especially for CC dedicated units. If you have to keep them away from combat why don't simply put the Captain in a standard bikers squad and charge only after you thinned enemy ranks?

 

Anyway Rage's build seem more reasonable in my opinion. If you want to field a command squad the champion is mandatory so he can accept challanges while your captain take care of the other enemies.

 

Just a note: Bikes cannot be pinned, if I remember correctly.

 

It's 6 models :P And no survivability? T5, 3++ save plus FnP is about as much survivability as you can get. And regarding CC, man you underestimate these guys. 3 Relicblade attacks, 6 Powerfist attacks and 6 Lightning Claw attacks? You don't think that's gonna hurt? Don't forget that you blast away beforehand with 4 rapidfiring Plasmaguns aswell.

 

Keep in mind that Rage's squad is still 445 points (mine is 585) and the only real difference between that squad and a standard Biker squad is Feel no Pain. My experience with biker command squads is that it's go big, or go home.

 

/Bjornas

1. I said "not amazing survivability" not "no survivability". There is a huge difference. Try to charge a 30 ork boyz hord ( soting nearly half of the command squad and let's see who wins)

3++ save does not mean invulnerability; it means you fail a roll every 3. Add FNP but it's not invulnerability.

2. Captain it's ok. He was never the problem

3. Bikers standard unit is much less. You may right the only difference is FNP but standard bikers should shoot then assault weakned units; not charging full units.

4. I didn't say it's bad. I said I would be careful to spend this points because there might be something unseful to add to your army. I'll probably add a command squad in my bikers army, if I'll ever build it, because it's even "fluff-wise" but I don't think it's an invulnerable unit as you seem to believe. The 4 plasmaguns may be the reason I'll include them in my list, though ;)

That's all.

[ShinyRhino]

In the end, the discussion over how to kit a Biker Command Squad really boils down to what its battlefield role will be.

Because Biker Command Squads (and foot Command Squads) are so flexible, you can give them a ton of jobs on the table.

 

Want special weapon saturation for point-and-click killing? Pile on the special weapons and go to town. The unit will be reasonably priced, but no more durable than a T5 Space Marine.

Need to carve your way through bog-standard power-armor troopers? Stock up on power weapons and a stormshield or two. You won't be a shooting powerhouse, but you'll bust PA heads like walnuts, while taking minimal damage in return due to T5 and those couple stormshields. Again, reasonably priced.

Want a Terminator-buster? Take some power fists or power axes and storm shields. You will hit at the same time as TDA with powerfists, but will have better saves. T5 even allows you a FNP roll against those powerfists you take in return. It's a high-risk unit, but fully capable of taking down most anything in the game.

 

If you want a do-all unit, Biker Command Squads can do that, but you'll pay through the nose for the chance. Just remember that some of the options are a little redundant. An all-plasma squad is capable of wiping out entire units of Terminators in a single volley. They may not need powerfists and stormshields because they'll strike first against the survivors with S4 attacks (3 per biker on the charge), PLUS get the FNP roll against any wounds caused by the surviving TDA.

The unit with plasma, fists, and shields carries the most "insurance", but at a cost. When you spend more on insurance, you can't afford to buy as many new toys. :ermm:

[Koremu]

I wrote this in 5th Edition. Every word of it is still true.

Regardless of who the Captain is, Bike Squads and Bikers Command Squads have very different roles. The Command Squad is a flexible unit that can be equippped into a number of roles, few of which duplicate the standard Bike Squads role.

 

In my opinion, any Biker Command Squad setup that simply mimics the standard Bike Squad role will be found lacking, as at the end of the day the standard biker squad can do it and be scoring.

 

There are two real divisions in how you look to set up a Command Squad - they can be broadly characterised as "Cataphract" and "Heavy Dragoon". The former exploits the Heavy-Cavalry-esque traits of the Command Squad - the availability of Storm Shields, the presence of Feel No Pain, and wielding Power Weapons - to form a hard hitting strike unit to act as a primary strike force on the battlefield. Doing this requires a hefy investment of points.

 

Heavy Dragoon setups meanwhile exploit the ability of the Command Squad to pack multiples of the same special weapon. This is generally the cheaper of the two Biker Command Squad setups, but is not by any means weak, as it is able to apply a devastating amount of firepower onto a wide area of the table at will. However, it does rely on either the Captain or a "Defender" Veteran to provide for and protect against enemy assaults.

 

It is possible to do both of the above in a single unit - there's nothing stopping you from arming all four veterans with Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield and Plasma Gun as well as a bike if you want - but it will generally be prohibitatively expensive (445 points, not including the Captain, for the above mentioned 5 man squad). Once you are at the point where you can buy 5 Assault Terminators *and* a Land Raider for the points cost, you might want to rethink your cunning plan.

[Bjornas]

In the end, the discussion over how to kit a Biker Command Squad really boils down to what its battlefield role will be.

Because Biker Command Squads (and foot Command Squads) are so flexible, you can give them a ton of jobs on the table.

 

Indeed, and my argument for going 'all-out' is basically that your monster CC unit can also be a monster Dakka unit for an additional 60 points. Apart from the biker command squad, the only _good_ CC unit that we have is Assault Terminators and you usually don't field both of those :) I don't think a 'pure dakka' command squad would be worth its points, since you have the Captain sitting around doing almost nothing.

 

Now, while I am still defending my basic argument I've tinkered some with my squad and came up with this:

 

Captain w/ Bike, Thunder Hammer, Artificier Armour. 180 pts.

Command squad: 2 Plasmaguns, 4 Storm Shields, 2 Lightning Claws, 1 Poweraxe, 1 Power Fist, 2 Meltabombs. 375 pts.

 

Thoughts? I'm sticking to 4 Stormshields, but actually 4 Plasmaguns could be a bad thing since if he removes too many from the front, I can't assault!

 

In the end, like many of you pointed out (and Koremu and ShinyRhino especially), how you equip the squad should depend on what the rest of your army looks like. I posted my revised list below so you can see what I need my command squad to do. Post yours aswell, it could be a good way to get deeper into this discussion.

 

 

Captain w/ Bike, Thunder Hammer, Artificier Armour. 180 pts.

Command squad: 2 Plasmaguns, 4 SS, 2 Lightning Claws, 1 Poweraxe, 1 PF, 2 Meltabombs. 375 pts.

Tactical Squad. Heavy Bolter, Flamer, Rhino. 205 pts.

Tactical Squad 205 pts. Multimelta (?), Flamer, Rhino. 205 pts.

Bike Squad: 5 Bikes + Attack Bike w/ 2 Plasmaguns, Multimelta. Serg w/ meltabombs. 225 pts.

Bike Squad: 5 Bikes + Attack Bike w/ 2 Meltaguns, Multimelta. Serg w/ meltabombs. 215 pts.

Land Speeder w/ 2x MM. 80 pts.

Land Speeder w/ 2x MM. 80 pts.

2x Land Speeder Typhoon. 180 pts.

1750 pts.

 

 

/Bjornas