nurglez Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Right, so I'm still yet to play a game of 6th with my draigowing, but I've been thinking about it a lot. And flyers worry me, while Psycannon's are great, needing 6's then 6's to penetrate a stormraven or vendetta zooming around isn't the most sure fire way. While I can fit 5 psycannon's in a squad that reroll to hit (inquisitor with divination power thingy), I'd have to get them all in range, only shoot at 1 target and still maybe not even glance it. Now I don't want to use allies with my paladins, or fortifications (as they both don't fit the feel of my army, paladins asking others for help? really? or them dragging around a aegis defense line? neither feel right). Current list: Draigo, inquisitor, terminator armour, psycannon, divination + 3 servoskulls, 10 paladins 4 psycannons, solodin, DK with heavy incinerator, DK with teleporter, heavy incinerator + greatsword. Which gives me 3 options. 1 suck it up and try and down them with massed psycannon fire. 2 swap a dk for a psyrifle dread (while I don't like psyrifle dreads, I do have 2 that I can paint up for my GK's) 3 swap my other DK (personal teleporter, greatsword + heavy incinerator) for a storm raven (which I also have ready to be painted). Now I'm leaning towards the Psyrifle dread, as I like my shunting DK, and taking the psyrifle dread leaves enough points to add psybolts to the 10man squad and a falchion equipped paladin (I really like my 1 falchion pally). However I am open to suggestions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Even when Flakk gets FAQed into the game (after GW has sold enough Forts) we won't have access to it. Well, barely. The only ML we have in out entire army is a Dread arm option, isn't it? The only other real AA options are; 1) TL Autocannon Dreads 2) Psycannons with Rerolls (Divinity FTW) 3) At a push TL Razorbacks 4) Storm Ravens Or allies. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3117833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Now I don't want to use allies with my paladins, or fortifications (as they both don't fit the feel of my army, paladins asking others for help? really? or them dragging around a aegis defense line? neither feel right). am sorry your playing the wrong game then . Only you thing you can do without using ally or forts is using 2 SR as gunships. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3118598 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormshadow Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 The jeske has a way of ”always” taking in absolutes, but one or more Stormravens is often a good addition to any list. But it’s hard to fit Draigo and Paladins and Raivens in the same list when playing at 1500pts and below. I myself am going to try out a dual Raven dual DK Draigowing att 1800p. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3118633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 The jeske has a way of ”always” taking in absolutes, but one or more Stormravens is often a good addition to any list. But it’s hard to fit Draigo and Paladins and Raivens in the same list when playing at 1500pts and below. I myself am going to try out a dual Raven dual DK Draigowing att 1800p. I did it at 2000 pts. List in my signature if you want to give a look. I plan to test it soon. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3118657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Ignore the flyers? Flyers are somewhat limeted with the zoom rules and in hover mode the are open season for psycannons. Table the rest of the other guy's army and the flyers won't be too much of an issue in the long run. Most games are objective based so just grab the objectives and kill his groundpounders. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3118672 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted July 12, 2012 Author Share Posted July 12, 2012 Don't worry, I know the jeske talks from a ultra tourny view. While I do play the odd tourny, I still like to fit a theme, and a single storm raven is tricky to fit in and feels wastes if I don't also have a dread. It's also only my Draigo wing that I don't want to use allies with. This is the same list I didn't want to use Psyrifle dreads with and everyone told me that i was stupid for doing, but I managed fine :) I'll play test, 1 of my friends has 2 vendettas, another has 2 storms and a 3rd has 1 Dakkajet, so I shall see how I cope with them ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3118698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Flyers are somewhat limeted with the zoom rules and in hover mode the are open season for psycannons. you know how many flyers necron or IG run ? To win you have to be able to beat those two . you cant just ignore 3/4 of some necron builds. as points goes . he is runing 3 NDKs drop those and you have SR. And no am taking this from a tournament point of view [then I would have to ponder stuff like . 1999 limit games , no fortification at some tournaments , no ally at some tournaments etc] , ally are part of the 6th game just like MSU/mecha was an important part of the game in 5th . Could you ignore mecha in 5th ? sure , but non of builds were unable to do that and get a working list at the same time . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3118719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Please, Night Scythe spam is retarded and extremely expensive. IG Air Cavalry is the real problem, Vendettas are just amazingly cost-effective and unlike Night Scythes you can take them in squadrons. If you don't take Allies or Fortifications, you'll just have to ignore the flyers and as others have said, murder the ground infantry. Them's the breaks with Draigowing, Air Cav is basically the paper to your rock. With Allies and Fortifications though, you can bring friendly flyers and quad-guns to clear the skies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3118750 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted July 12, 2012 Author Share Posted July 12, 2012 I'm running 2 dk's. 1 for 260 points and 1 for 160 points, and If you must use allies or fortifications I guess Nid's have gotten screwed and no one in their right mind would play them? MSU in 5th was a valid tactic, not one I saw among my friends and I rarely played against it, when I did I just destroyed a few units each turn and let the shots bounce off Draigo/cover. My weaknesses are the same, slow moving, few units and lack of long ranged shooting. But I can deal with that :P As I said in my original post, I am trying to fit a theme/feel for my army. It may not do as well but I have more fun playing with units I like then units I don't. I really like my shunting DK, it's great for putting pressure on enemy units/vehicles, almost always heads straight for any vehicle with a demolisher cannon and helps distract my opponent. A storm raven can do all this, and also get taken out in 1 shot. I tried rolling 20 psycannon shots with rerolls to hit, and vs an armor 12 flyer I got about 4 damaging hits on average (I don't do math hammer, I roll and see the results). Of course, this is assuming I'm in range with all of them, but Taking a psyrifle dread and psybolts Could help me threaten armor 11 vehicles with my stormbolters too, and mess up the armor 10 flyers more easily. So I am definitely favoring the psyrifle dread currently, but play testing may change this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3118751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I guess Nid's have gotten screwed and no one in their right mind would play them? People still consider Nid's a playable army? /shudder At least they've got a few Flying MCs to deal with other Flyers though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3118833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 PsyDreads are fine, between their S8 and re-rolls you should do some damage to flyers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3118836 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I would assume that Dreads would be the defacto target for the Vendetta's triple Lascannons as they come flying on. Pew Pew!! Oh, all the Dreads dead to Lascannons? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3118850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Psybolts (S5 on your storm bolters) may be worth considering. A lot of these flyers are AV11 or worse, so smacking them silly with S5 shots will net you a Glance here or there...and you only need three. Even if they have shenanigans to prevent themselves from being Stunned, they still lose Hull Points when you roll 5 then 6 on one of your shots. How many storm bolters do you have? :( Taking Psybolts won't change the theme of your list at all...in fact it plays to it, as that's the best-of-the-best ammunition and we're talking about Paladins. I see only good things happening with your psycannons too. The inherent limitations of flyers is something else to consider as well: they can only turn ninety degrees and are moving in huge jumps on that table, crossing the long way in two turns in some cases. They are going to be tricky to arrange in a way that both puts out their optimal damage and doesn't result in most or all of them being in On-Going Reserves at the same time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3118894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I had the same reasonning as Thade. But then, I figured that with 1 shot in 18 (vs AV10) or 1 shot in 36 (vs AV11), it might not be a very good use (there's pretty much always something to shoot on the ground instead). With flyers not being as maneuverable, as Thade pointed out, I figure that the SR's turret might actually do most of the AAC shooting. So, lascannons or Assault cannons? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3118982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 The core Divination power allows re-rolls on misses, does it not? Some power did, I thought. :) That may help your storm bolters be more menacing to fliers. While I can't dispute the SR being somewhat better equipped to fire on other flyers, I sympathize with not wanting to incorporate one. If you do, though, make sure it's only occupant is an Eversor Assassin named Jet Li. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3119060 Share on other sites More sharing options...
boreas Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 With re-rolls, it's gets up to 1/9th of shots glancing AV11, much more reliable! But I don't like using an =I= just for AA purpose. He might get killed, he might miss his Psychic test, he might get stuck in CC with his squad, ect... But without SRs, Quad-guns or allies, a list is running out of option pretty fast :( Phil Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3119123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 With re-rolls, it's gets up to 1/9th of shots glancing AV11, much more reliable! But I don't like using an =I= just for AA purpose. He might get killed, he might miss his Psychic test, he might get stuck in CC with his squad, ect... But without SRs, Quad-guns or allies, a list is running out of option pretty fast :) Phil At 2k, you could could take up to four Inquisitors. How you'd justify all of them getting along for that long is another matter ;) but I bet "an Inquisitor and his apprentice" could give you a bit of redundancy there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3119234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted July 12, 2012 Author Share Posted July 12, 2012 My New list already includes a termy inquisitor with the Reroll power and a psycannon, I was factoring in the rerolls on 20 psycannon shots ;) Swapping the walking incinerator dk for a Psyrifle dread and psybolts on the 10man squad seems like the current plan ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3119466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormshadow Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Let us know how it works out :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3119783 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 TBH man, you should suss out the meta-game where you are. If Flyers aren't a major problem, you can get by ignoring them. If they are prevalent, then yeah you need Allies or Fortifications, Stormravens are too expensive for Draigowing to fit in except at 2.5k, and PsyDreads can only do so much before getting blown up (either by glances or lascannons to the face). Re-rolls on 6's isn't going to net you a lot of hits. Psybolts are a joke, especially against the AV12 flyers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3119948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Stormravens are too expensive for Draigowing to fit in except at 2.5k It may be a good choice for "target saturation". Opponents will usually focus their fire on Draigo and Paladins, the presence of two "feared" flyers may create a useful distraction. Anyway I still wonder if Stormravens are an "auto-include" choice for our armies. I plan to play few matches in the next day against opponents I know they have no flyer. I wonder if I should play the duel stormravenes anyway or playing something else at 2000 pts..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3120079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 It may be a good choice for "target saturation". Opponents will usually focus their fire on Draigo and Paladins, the presence of two "feared" flyers may create a useful distraction.Anyway I still wonder if Stormravens are an "auto-include" choice for our armies. I plan to play few matches in the next day against opponents I know they have no flyer. I wonder if I should play the duel stormravenes anyway or playing something else at 2000 pts..... No, cos here is what happens; You have three Stormravens (at best). All their anti-flyer and Flyers shoot them. They die/get disabled Everything else goes into the Paladins, who either just got dumped out of the Ravens, or were foot-slogging anyway Any attempt to Reserve your army is defeated by A: maximum 50% can be in Reserve and B: whatever is on the table getting focus fired even harder. This is especially painful for Draigowing, as they don't have many units to dilute fire to begin with. Stormravens would be an auto-include, if GW had given us the option of either Mindstrikes or anti-tank rockets (or even a mix). Being forced to take anti-psyker frag missiles sucks. There is a reason BA players like their Stormraven, and ours gets barely any play. It's called Bloodstrike missiles. Sadly, allying BA can't help, because even with two detachments you can still only get 2 BA Ravens max, and you have to take mandatory 2HQ+2Troops, which is an additional expense Draigowing cannot afford. There is another...ally, shall we say, who brings excellent Flyers that murder enemy Flyers and ground vehicles/MC's/heavy infantry. We can't talk about it here though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3120230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted July 13, 2012 Author Share Posted July 13, 2012 Doesn't matter as I don't want to take allies (did anyone read my first post?). My paladins don't need to take stinking allies, and they don't bring aegis defense line's with them either. They deep strike down and shoot the living snot out of their enemies, then assault and wipe out the rest :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3120585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Paladin Nurglez, you are an inspiration. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256214-anti-air-for-my-draigowing/#findComment-3120587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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