Anti Air for my draigowing

[Cmdr Shepard]

It may be a good choice for "target saturation". Opponents will usually focus their fire on Draigo and Paladins, the presence of two "feared" flyers may create a useful distraction.

Anyway I still wonder if Stormravens are an "auto-include" choice for our armies. I plan to play few matches in the next day against opponents I know they have no flyer. I wonder if I should play the duel stormravenes anyway or playing something else at 2000 pts.....

 

No, cos here is what happens;

 

You have three Stormravens (at best). All their anti-flyer and Flyers shoot them. They die/get disabled

Everything else goes into the Paladins, who either just got dumped out of the Ravens, or were foot-slogging anyway

Any attempt to Reserve your army is defeated by A: maximum 50% can be in Reserve and B: whatever is on the table getting focus fired even harder. This is especially painful for Draigowing, as they don't have many units to dilute fire to begin with.

 

Stormravens would be an auto-include, if GW had given us the option of either Mindstrikes or anti-tank rockets (or even a mix). Being forced to take anti-psyker frag missiles sucks. There is a reason BA players like their Stormraven, and ours gets barely any play. It's called Bloodstrike missiles. Sadly, allying BA can't help, because even with two detachments you can still only get 2 BA Ravens max, and you have to take mandatory 2HQ+2Troops, which is an additional expense Draigowing cannot afford.

 

There is another...ally, shall we say, who brings excellent Flyers that murder enemy Flyers and ground vehicles/MC's/heavy infantry. We can't talk about it here though.

I even made few "movement tests" with flyers and they are somehow problematic to move. Maybe things will change once we'll get more familiar with them but right noew I'm thinking to allocate the points of the two stormravens to something else for my incoming matches with my Hybrid Draigo Wing. I think I'll update my list as soon as possible.

[nurglez]

Please do let us know, My current list for 1500 points:

 

Draigo

Inquisitor, psycannon, terminator armour, daemon hammer, 3 servo skulls, Divination (assuming Prescience unless I get something much better, perfect timing, forboding or misfortune could all be great too)

 

10 paladins, 4 psycannons, 2-3 daemon hammers, 1-2 swords, rest halberds, psybolts

 

solodin, falchions

 

Psyrifle dread, searchlight

 

DK, greatsword, heavy incinerator, teleporter

 

I'd still prefer to swap the psyrifle dread and psybolts on the 10man for a second dk, but it's my concession to anti flyerness.

 

My usual list (draigo, 15 paladins with 6 psycannons, same dk from here) has even less anti flyerness in my opinion, and less scoring presence, though at least in a one out of 6 missions my heavy support will be scoring without having to use grand strategy :D

 

Haven't even considered what I will do at 2000 points, though I seriously doubt I'll need 2 force organisations :P

[Cmdr Shepard]

Please do let us know, My current list for 1500 points:

 

Draigo

Inquisitor, psycannon, terminator armour, daemon hammer, 3 servo skulls, Divination (assuming Prescience unless I get something much better, perfect timing, forboding or misfortune could all be great too)

 

10 paladins, 4 psycannons, 2-3 daemon hammers, 1-2 swords, rest halberds, psybolts

 

solodin, falchions

 

Psyrifle dread, searchlight

 

DK, greatsword, heavy incinerator, teleporter

 

I'd still prefer to swap the psyrifle dread and psybolts on the 10man for a second dk, but it's my concession to anti flyerness.

 

My usual list (draigo, 15 paladins with 6 psycannons, same dk from here) has even less anti flyerness in my opinion, and less scoring presence, though at least in a one out of 6 missions my heavy support will be scoring without having to use grand strategy :rolleyes:

 

Haven't even considered what I will do at 2000 points, though I seriously doubt I'll need 2 force organisations ;)

 

I'll update my list soon and I'll play a couple of game next week, I'll let you know the list and its performace.

 

Anyway I opted for a "Hybrid" list because when I'm really unlucky, it does not happen during every match but it still happens sometimes :) , my paladins start to encounter a lot of problems. With more bodies on the table I think I may counter it.

 

Talking about the models allowed in this forum I'm thinking about what play with the two stormravens' points. Maybe a TDA Inquisitor, an other Strike Team and a DK... what do you think?

I'll be fighting against a lot of anti-infatry weapons: how does DK perform under such circumstances?

[nurglez]

Slightly OT here :D

 

DK's have a problem, and that is T6. S3 weapons can plink away at him, so squads of imperial guard can hurt him. My DK almost always dies in my games, however he often takes out or distracts the enemy enough to help me win (many a time his Heavy incinerator has taken out something that my Paladins would have trouble with. Scouts/pathfinders in cover laugh off storm bolters and psycannons, but they don't laugh vs a str6 ap4 cover ignoring weapon :devil: ).

 

Dk's got a buff with being str10 due to doomfists, and they are also the only unit I have that can sweeping advance (apart from a dread).

 

So as long as you take a heavy incinerator on your DK, he should do well. a personal teleporter is expensive, but awesome (imagine that your opponent is hiding plasma or melta at the back of a squad, you shunt behind and cause 8 wounds out on 10 models, chances are the special's shall die!).

 

I love paladins, and will always use them for my GK, I have no power armored models at all. Sure sometimes I have been unlucky, but some of my best games have been where I've lost a bunch of paladins in the first turn and still managed to win or draw(at least 2 games in tournaments this has happened, and helped make it a brilliant game). I fully think that the best GK list is a mix of Draigo and Coteaz, for awesome elite troops and cheap scoring troops.

 

So your hybrid list is a take on the Draigo/Coteaz list.

Maybe increase your strike squad to 10men, inquisitor (hopefully with points for divination) and a DK. If no personal teleporter then servo skulls would help him deep strike more accurately and put his incinerator to good use (I can't imagine taking a DK without an incinerator).

 

My list for 2k points would be.

Draigo

Inquisitor, psycannon, terminator armour, divination and 3 servo skulls

10 paladins, 4 psycannons, 2 hammers, 1 falchion, 2 swords, 5 halberds, psybolts

5 paladins, 2 psycannons, 1 MCed hammer, 1 sword, 3 halberds

Psyrifle dread

DK, heavy incinerator, personal teleporter

DK, heavy incinerator, personal teleporter, great sword

2000 points

 

Of course Flyer spam will be scary to fight, but hopefully I can just focus fire down each flyer, and tank the hits (same way I coped with MSU spam).

[nurglez]

It may be a good choice for "target saturation". Opponents will usually focus their fire on Draigo and Paladins, the presence of two "feared" flyers may create a useful distraction.

Anyway I still wonder if Stormravens are an "auto-include" choice for our armies. I plan to play few matches in the next day against opponents I know they have no flyer. I wonder if I should play the duel stormravenes anyway or playing something else at 2000 pts.....

 

No, cos here is what happens;

 

You have three Stormravens (at best). All their anti-flyer and Flyers shoot them. They die/get disabled

Everything else goes into the Paladins, who either just got dumped out of the Ravens, or were foot-slogging anyway

Any attempt to Reserve your army is defeated by A: maximum 50% can be in Reserve and B: whatever is on the table getting focus fired even harder. This is especially painful for Draigowing, as they don't have many units to dilute fire to begin with.

 

Stormravens would be an auto-include, if GW had given us the option of either Mindstrikes or anti-tank rockets (or even a mix). Being forced to take anti-psyker frag missiles sucks. There is a reason BA players like their Stormraven, and ours gets barely any play. It's called Bloodstrike missiles. Sadly, allying BA can't help, because even with two detachments you can still only get 2 BA Ravens max, and you have to take mandatory 2HQ+2Troops, which is an additional expense Draigowing cannot afford.

 

There is another...ally, shall we say, who brings excellent Flyers that murder enemy Flyers and ground vehicles/MC's/heavy infantry. We can't talk about it here though.

I even made few "movement tests" with flyers and they are somehow problematic to move. Maybe things will change once we'll get more familiar with them but right noew I'm thinking to allocate the points of the two stormravens to something else for my incoming matches with my Hybrid Draigo Wing. I think I'll update my list as soon as possible.

 

Draigowing can Tank fire. While allies could bring us superior cheaper anti flyer fire power, but wheres the fun in that? My dark Eldar are looking forward to allying with my chaos, even though they are distrustful, because my Chaos and dark Eldar are scum. A stormraven can be good vs certain flyers due to its tougher armor, but it just feels like trying to beat your opponent at their own game :devil:

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Draigo

Inquisitor, psycannon, terminator armour, daemon hammer, 3 servo skulls, Divination (assuming Prescience unless I get something much better, perfect timing, forboding or misfortune could all be great too)

 

10 paladins, 4 psycannons, 2-3 daemon hammers, 1-2 swords, rest halberds, psybolts

 

solodin, falchions

 

Psyrifle dread, searchlight

 

DK, greatsword, heavy incinerator, teleporter

 

Looks good, let us know how you get on with it. Why the servo-skulls? I find they get cleared out pretty early by the enemy, unless you place in your own DZ

 

I'll be fighting against a lot of anti-infatry weapons: how does DK perform under such circumstances?

 

Dreadknights are insane against infantry, its complete overkill. They plink off its multiple wounds and 2+ armour, it can now challenge out sarge powerfists and dangerous characters to be even more invulnerable, and the greatsword basically means you get guranteed kills every turn (unless you roll double 1's a lot, which has happened to me). Mine usually loses two wounds on the way in, so it can be a close-run combat at times. Generally though, my DK eats at least two squads and a tank or two before getting shot/charged by something that can kill it.

 

Draigowing can Tank fire. While allies could bring us superior cheaper anti flyer fire power, but wheres the fun in that? My dark Eldar are looking forward to allying with my chaos, even though they are distrustful, because my Chaos and dark Eldar are scum. A stormraven can be good vs certain flyers due to its tougher armor, but it just feels like trying to beat your opponent at their own game

 

Eh, it depends on how the game plays out. If you fight a good IG player who knows how Vendettas work, you'll be fighting uphill (his lascannons end Paladins, and he outranges you by a lot, not to mention Veterans popping out with demo-charges and plasma guns for suicide drops). Very few other flyers have the same firepower and cost-effectiveness, so in most other cases you can probably ignore them (Doom Scythe is a problem though, BA Stormravens can drop Stormhammers into your face which Paladins hate). You might find Henchmen or allies worth bringing in to plug the gaps. Local meta is very subjective, so its really your call.

 

For the most part, I think Flyers will just be another support piece. You have to sacrifice a fair bit to take more than a handful, and none of them sport AV higher than 12 (so even if you don't Rend, psycannon and other S7 can still drop them on decent rolls). Draigowing can probably ignore them, but yeah you will be in a bad matchup in some games.

[thade]

You can Look Out, Sir! on a 4+ for any Draigo himself to dive in and save a Paladin with his 3++/Eternal Warrior. Instead of you always being able to do this, now it only happens on a 4+...a slight nerf, but not a total one.

[nurglez]

It is also slightly better for when you are hit by a high volume of instant death/low Ap wounds, and little to no easily saveable wounds.

 

For example. 7 demolisher wounds on a 10man with Draigo being furthest model. 4+ each one goes on Draigo.

 

Another thing to remember about flyers is that the toughest ones are generally transports too, and if they slow down they will get shot down pretty easy ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Another thing to remember about flyers is that the toughest ones are generally transports too, and if they slow down they will get shot down pretty easy

 

You still have to contend with that 5+ cover if they move at all, and 4+ if they move 12". Hitting on normal BS is nice though.

 

The problem is, most of the good flyers have ways to deploying their cargo without slowing. 'Shadow Skies' for us (which we never use), 'Blood Skies' for BA, 'Grav Chutes' for IG Vendettas, and Necrons just teleport their dudes using Night Scythes. They do scatter, but BA don't care due to DoA and the payoff when you do land without incident is huge (just ask anyone how they feel watching IG Veterans leap out and demo-charge+plasma gun their backfield units with relative impunity).

[nurglez]

True, but it add's to the cinematic-ness of the game (made up word go me!).

 

Just played my first 1500 point game vs Orks, and beat them pretty solidly. 20psycannon shots + 12 str 5 shots rerolling misses really did a number on his dakkajet (poor thing never even knew what hit it), 15 loota's in a battlewagon are damn annoying too.

 

While it wasn't an uber competetive list, neither is mine. Had great fun and a friend of mine who works in the store said GW would be faqing character units as they are a bit too powerful and it was only meant for the squad leader to be a character (which makes sense to me), however until I see it I won't play it (as my friends have been wrong before).

[Reclusiarch Darius]

True, but it adds to the drama of the game.

 

'Drama' is actually a pretty good word to use. Of course, English loves new words mangled from old ones, so props for 'cinematic-ness' lol.

 

Just played my first 1500 point game vs Orks, and beat them pretty solidly. 20psycannon shots + 12 str 5 shots rerolling misses really did a number on his dakkajet (poor thing never even knew what hit it), 15 loota's in a battlewagon are damn annoying too.

 

Yeah, I feel bad for Orks. Their primary way of dealing with Terminators (Nob Bikers) get pwned hard by our nemesis weapons, and Paladins just refuse to die to the spam shooting Orks rely on (unless he's rolling with a SAG). Kan Wall/Battlewagon spam is annoying, but you can still wrap around with your PaladinStar and murder it all (giving up charge bonus means little when you are 3A due to Bro Banner and WS5). Dunno why he bothered with the DakkaJet, it just bounces off TDA.

 

While it wasn't an uber competetive list, neither is mine. Had great fun and a friend of mine who works in the store said GW would be faqing character units as they are a bit too powerful and it was only meant for the squad leader to be a character (which makes sense to me), however until I see it I won't play it (as my friends have been wrong before).

 

Your friend is talking out of his other orifice. Character squads are rare, it's really just Deathstars at the moment, and people already know the hard-counters (bring S8+ and deny their armour).

[thade]

Neither here nor there, but personally I think "cinematic-ness" or perhaps "cinema-style" is a better choice than "drama", if only because the gamer vernacular for drama more often refers to tension between players. <3

 

Don't feel bad for Orks, they're fine. They still measure both their shooting and their assaults in "number of dice cubes" (i.e. sets of 36 dice) that they need to throw. Two or three "dice cubes" are not uncommon. Lootas are still mean, their troops are still Fearless over a small number, and Warbosses are basically designed - both in game-terms and story-terms - for challenges.

 

Nobz and Paladins do not have Squad Leaders. <3 Also consider that the current "wound allocation shenanigans" with Character units is a super far cry from ye olde wound allocation shenanigans. Back in 5th (I love saying that) Back in 5th you needed to do a single wound to every model in a Nob or Paladin unit before you killed anything. Now you just pile up on a flank and plaster that leading Paladin with bolts. 4+ to pass that wound off to a guy that's within 6" in the squad is not nearly as good as "just putting the wound wherever because they're all uniquely geared". It's going to be okay. <3

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Neither here nor there, but personally I think "cinematic-ness" or perhaps "cinema-style" is a better choice than "drama", if only because the gamer vernacular for drama more often refers to tension between players. <3

 

Good point. My gaming group always has drama of that kind. Mainly because the Chaos Daemons player refuses to get another army :) . I beat him with my Tau, it's depressing for me and him.

 

Don't feel bad for Orks, they're fine. They still measure both their shooting and their assaults in "number of dice cubes" (i.e. sets of 36 dice) that they need to throw. Two or three "dice cubes" are not uncommon. Lootas are still mean, their troops are still Fearless over a small number, and Warbosses are basically designed - both in game-terms and story-terms - for challenges.

 

Yeah, but their hit rolls at 5's and 6's (hence why both Lootas and Shoota Boyz love Overwatch, as its like another free shooting phase exactly). I've had the bucket o'dice used on me, but when they finish rolling, TDA still shrugs off most of it. I have an unspoken rule with my regular Ork opponent to not field Purifiers, and that was coming out of 5th (6th edition just made them even more daunting to charge). Yeah, Lootas are annoying, but we have the Dreadknight, whose incinerator and charge eats them in one go. Fearless is great, it means I can hide in combat and keep murdering them, then finish them off in time for my turn.

 

Nobz and Paladins do not have Squad Leaders. <3 Also consider that the current "wound allocation shenanigans" with Character units is a super far cry from ye olde wound allocation shenanigans. Back in 5th (I love saying that) Back in 5th you needed to do a single wound to every model in a Nob or Paladin unit before you killed anything. Now you just pile up on a flank and plaster that leading Paladin with bolts. 4+ to pass that wound off to a guy that's within 6" in the squad is not nearly as good as "just putting the wound wherever because they're all uniquely geared". It's going to be okay. <3

 

Kinda irrelevant, as they are all characters, so it's like having a unit of Sarges.

I'm also a fan of the new system, the old 'wound pools' look so dumb now with 'closest dude dies' and LoS the new standard. Now, Deathstars like Paladins can't abuse things as much, but still have a pretty good defense and most of their 5th edition durability is still there.

[thade]

Kinda irrelevant, as they are all characters, so it's like having a unit of Sarges.

That was, I think, both of our points there; I was simply throwing fuel on the fire for you.

 

 

I'm also a fan of the new system, the old 'wound pools' look so dumb now with 'closest dude dies' and LoS the new standard. Now, Deathstars like Paladins can't abuse things as much, but still have a pretty good defense and most of their 5th edition durability is still there.

 

I fully agree. The system is faster, makes more intuitive sense, has a lower learning curve, and balances out death-star units like that a good amount.

[nurglez]

my friend brought his dakkajet because I wanted to play against it, he loves the model and I bought it for him as an early birthday present. He had 2 battlewagons, one of which he kept as a mobile bunker for his loota's. Due to their range they could happily spray shots at me, one turn he caused 14 wounds on me, with Draigo as the closest, I calmly roll 13 saves and pass off the wound to a unwounded paladin :tu:

 

My friend (who said they might do away with unit's of characters) might be talking out of his arse, or he might not. We never know with GW when they will faq stuff or how they will. He heard rumor of it due to the GW open day thingy they had (I think the main point is a squad of paladins shooting can all precise shot, which is kinda over powered, let alone LoS).

 

My DK tried to take on the looters and battle wagon on his own, and died to over watch when he charged in (he only had 1 wound left due to a tank shock and his whole army shooting at him the previous turn).

 

So far so good, though I will still need to face off vs my imperial guard friend (2 vendetta's) and my angels sanguine friend (2 storm ravens). Should be playing nids soon but I'm not worried by them... :)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

my friend brought his dakkajet because I wanted to play against it, he loves the model and I bought it for him as an early birthday present. He had 2 battlewagons, one of which he kept as a mobile bunker for his loota's. Due to their range they could happily spray shots at me, one turn he caused 14 wounds on me, with Draigo as the closest, I calmly roll 13 saves and pass off the wound to a unwounded paladin

 

Ah k. Well Ork players can make anything work, its kinda the style of their army. As your proved them, its basically a giant paperweight against TDA models with two wounds apiece. So he might wanna think about getting a SAG in the future.

 

My friend (who said they might do away with unit's of characters) might be talking out of his arse, or he might not. We never know with GW when they will faq stuff or how they will. He heard rumor of it due to the GW open day thingy they had (I think the main point is a squad of paladins shooting can all precise shot, which is kinda over powered, let alone LoS).

 

Precision Shot is only on 6's, so even with re-rolls from 'Prescience', you won't generate that many anyway. It does come in handy, but Paladins are so expensive that a bonus like that is more icing on the cake. If it gets taken away, it won't be too much of a nerf, but I don't see the need to.

 

My DK tried to take on the looters and battle wagon on his own, and died to over watch when he charged in (he only had 1 wound left due to a tank shock and his whole army shooting at him the previous turn).

 

Yeah it sucks. Knights unfortunately lack long-range anti-tank options outside the PsyDread (who is pretty chancy against Battlewagon front AV, good if you can get side angles on them though). Something to consider for the future is a Tech-Marine with a conversion beamer. With 'Prescience' from Coteaz, he has good odds of getting the blast on the Battlewagon and with S10 AP1, you'll probably blow it up. That gets the Lootas out in the open, and the Dreadknight then doesn't have to take additional Overwatch fire.

 

I've had the same problem with my Dreadknight, it's almost always the case he gets into enemy lines with only 2 wounds left. I can't really advise much more than make use of LOS blocking terrain and shunt cleverly.

 

So far so good, though I will still need to face off vs my imperial guard friend (2 vendetta's) and my angels sanguine friend (2 storm ravens). Should be playing nids soon but I'm not worried by them...

 

Only two Vendettas? PsyDreads should be able to blow one up a turn if you focus them. Their lascannons are going to hurt though, the poor Dreadknight probably won't live long. Storm Ravens could be a problem if he takes plasma cannons, but they're more expensive than Vendettas as will be their cargo, so again PsyDreads focusing should work.

[Brother_Fatiswon]

sry if i missed it, read thru the tread twice... what was your reasoning behind the solo-dual-blade-din?

[nurglez]

sry if i missed it, read thru the tread twice... what was your reasoning behind the solo-dual-blade-din?

 

Rule of cool. I had 5 points spare so thought I would use him (I realize that a batter choice would be a hammer or sword armed solodin).

[thade]

sry if i missed it, read thru the tread twice... what was your reasoning behind the solo-dual-blade-din?

 

Rule of cool.

This is the best list-building response I've seen in a while. <3

[nurglez]

And here he is, the solodin ;)

 

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c397/nurglez/utf-8BSU1BRzA0NjguanBn.jpg

[Brother_Fatiswon]

sry if i missed it, read thru the tread twice... what was your reasoning behind the solo-dual-blade-din?

 

Rule of cool.

This is the best list-building response I've seen in a while. <3

 

Agreed.

 

i've being MIA from the boards and last i saw you were doing the 10+5+2 NDK... and for my own draigowing, neither NDK or psyfileman dreads work in terms of where my fluff is based.

 

i'm been mucking about with (pre-6th) running 3-5 solodins armed with warding staffs for speed bumping/trapping , but, now that the 6th is out, i think i may switch out to running 3 solodins all with hammers for deep striking triangle AV trapping