Smurfalypse Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 I have a game this Thursday against a buddy of mine who is an IG player, he will more than likely do a "Traitor Guard" list with some allied Daemons or CSMs. Either way this is not relivant to what i decide. My two choices are IG and Daemons. Each seems to have pros and cons. IG **Pros** Units and an HQ with Psychic Powers. Tanks Tanks Tanks (1 fast choice could be 3 hellhounds). Commisars in infantry units just has a good feel when they are rolling with some Word Bearers. Cheap HQ option. Lots of cannon fodder **Cons** Will have no daemonic presence in the force. Tanks and other good stuff are pricey pts wise. IG are squishy. Daemons **Pros** Daemons + Word Bearers = How it should be. HtH will be drasticaly improved overall. Plethora of MC choices or FMCs. Solid choices of troops/HQ all around. **Cons** Nothing is very cheap. As i am a fluffy Word Bearer player, all gods MUST be respresented equally :ermm: No psychic powers. Lemme know what you think and throw in more pros and cons please. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Few more Pros and Cons. IG: Pros: Veteran squads are cheap, can be upgraded to carry 3 special weapons per squad, may take 4+ saves. Valks are very nice weapon and troop carrying platforms. A way to give us chaos boys some air support. Anti-air (forget what the vehicles called) vehicles would be very nice as well. Twin linked autocannons able to track enemy air support? Yes please. Daemons: Pros: Alot of good FMCs to use, provide a powerful speartip. Good elite choices, may be able to substitute one of theirs for our weaker elite choices. Cons: Weaker troop choices. Deepstrike deployment is hard to sync with other armies. Other armies need to rush forward in order to sync with daemonic deployment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 I'm doing both, but also limiting the amount of units I take. It would be easy to get crazygonuts with buying allies and just end up with three or four new armies entirely. Which is probably what GW wants from us, but there you go. I try to keep my allies in nice, tidy numbers like 500 or 750 points. So far I like my IG meltavets better, but I haven't played a lot of games with either. Adding Vendettas to Chaos Marines is pretty awesome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiron Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 I would personally go for Daemons. I like their HQ, elites are definatelly more elite then any of ours and I am afraid that everyone will have IG as allies. However I am as well contemplating blob of ork boyz with warboss in the lead (close combat powerful cannon fodder) or some necrons (very nice mandatory troop and very viable fast - not even comparable with ours - HQ is however expensive job!). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118132 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydra Omega Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Either traitor guard/cultists or daemons would work great with Word Bearers, but don't feel that you absolutely have to balance representatives of each god. In the fluff, Marduk summoned whatever daemons seemed handy at the time. To fight IG, he summoned Furies. For genestealers, he summoned Bloodletters, for Dark Eldar, Daemonettes. Do whatever your Dark Apostle desires! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118141 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted July 11, 2012 Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 Either traitor guard/cultists or daemons would work great with Word Bearers, but don't feel that you absolutely have to balance representatives of each god. In the fluff, Marduk summoned whatever daemons seemed handy at the time. To fight IG, he summoned Furies. For genestealers, he summoned Bloodletters, for Dark Eldar, Daemonettes. Do whatever your Dark Apostle desires! I know it isnt mandatory, it is just something I personally would HAVE to do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artein Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 CSM and CD are 'battle brothers', right? I believe that CSM-IG has lower status of 'friendship' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HJL Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 ive been thinking about daemons myself, khorne seemed the obvious choice to me, bloodthirster is a combat monster and bloodletters are great against other power weapon squads. the problem for me is thus: how good are close combat daemons going to be in an edition of the game that has so heavily nerfed close combat? when bloodletters arrive they cant assault, so they get shot, they then have to charge, again getting shot. i can see that this is not going to leave much for a second charge or for any other action in the game. lets take a look. 10 bloodletters deepstrike off of an icon. say they land next to a tactical squad with a melta gun and rocket launcher. so 15 bolt shots, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 3.2 dead, melta kills 0.3, good hit with frag is going to hit 6, 3 wounds, 2 kills. so thats a total loss of 6 before they do anything, then they charge, the marines fire overwatch, thats 6s to hit so 15 bolt shots, 0.83 kills, melta 0.1 kills, and 0.1 from krak, thats another kill. now you only have 3 bloodletters left to charge at the squad :/ wifflebat Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 and then you pray the sm are not in cover and/or that you not happen to be an unlucky owner of the bloodies with axs models. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HJL Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 and then you pray the sm are not in cover and/or that you not happen to be an unlucky owner of the bloodies with axs models. Quite. I think the best daemons are goi g to be tzeench shooty ones. More shots plus 4+ inv = good day at the office. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118191 Share on other sites More sharing options...
techsoldaten Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Daemons are the better ally. I think it works out better for IG to ally with CSMs than the other way around. Here's what to consider about Daemons: * HQ options like Fateweaver and Epidemus can vastly improve the offense of your main army. * Bloodthirsters are just plain unfair to the enemy when paired with shooty CSM lists. There's a reason GW pulled them from the current codex, they make other gamers cry. * The troop options are actually useful and not too, too expensive. They have fear and other USRs that mean something. * The reserve rules can be a good thing when paired with a Daemon force. It gives you the ability to place allies where they are needed, even if it is a little unpredictable. Here's things to consider about IG: * IG Troops are unwieldy. You either have to take a veteran squad or spend a lot more on a full platoon. It's a choice between getting very little value for the points or spending a lot of points for a unit that is expensive and likely redundant with your other troops. * IG Commander buffs don't affect CSM allies because they are not BFFs. * The tank options are actually quite nice, but it's hard to justify paying for an IG commander and troop option just to get them. That's over 100 points minimum to get access to big guns, and it's not like you are going to need IG infantry support for a CSM army. Well, for anything other than meatshields. But those are expensive meatshields. * IG would benefit more from CSMs than the other way around. A winged DP could answer some serious questions about CC assaults. If you really want to pair up the two armies, make the CSMs the allies and just build a strong guard list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I wonder if it would be legit that if you summon Chaos Daemons off a CSM Icon, because of the "Battle-Brothers" level of alliance the Chaos Daemons get the summon rules for the Lesser Daemons and could therefore Assault upon arrival. . .? If each army can benefit from the powers/traits/etc of each other, I think there's a case for it unless there's something specifically mentioned in the 6th Ed rulebook that says otherwise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Have to also look at the senergy between the two via the allies matrix. The daemon are "battle brothers", while the IG are "Allies of convience", so you take some more penalties/cons from that as well vs. daemon allies. The other thing I have taken into consideration, even though it's only rumoured at this point, is that in the new codex we are supposedly going to have traitor guard units available. So while I am collecting and modeling up some traitor guard, I will also be grabbing daemons to ally with. I am also curios when it comes to the use of icons as tp homers for our daemon allies. One of the benefits of being battle brothers with them is that the daemons "are counted as friendly units for the targeting of psychic powers, abilities and so on." That to me makes me think that since it is one of the icons abilities that it should be so. Ok, going back to reading my BRB that finally arrived today, got some catching up to do. :unsure: ~BtW Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
HJL Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Thats how ive been playing it bearingtheword. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118402 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskie Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 and then you pray the sm are not in cover and/or that you not happen to be an unlucky owner of the bloodies with axs models. Quite. I think the best daemons are goi g to be tzeench shooty ones. More shots plus 4+ inv = good day at the office. That's what I said elsewhere. I also like Fiends. The Elite demons are definitely tasty but pricey. I wanna try without allies after the new codex for a while, build a pure CSM list. But I like most of the ally options, including Orks, Nobz Mob as Troops lead by Warboss. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristoff Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Until amended by a new book or FAQ/Errata/Amendment by RAW, units from the Chaos Daemons codex cannot use the Icons purchased by Chaos Marines to minimize their Deep Strike. Note that Icons only work for models in Terminator Armour, Obliterators and Lesser Daemons, not for units entering play using ump packs or other means of transport. Since no unit in Codex: Chaos Daemons qualifies as such and Daemons have no such inherent rules are part of their model, Marine Icons cannot officially be used to bring in Bloodletters, Daemonettes, etc. Oddly enough, the wording for DAEMON Icons just says it's for Friendly units, so Marines Deep Striking (Including Raptors) could come in off of theirs without scattering as easily as any Daemon. Sadly, this doesn't save the poor model that's being used for Summoning the Marine Greater Daemon. Just talk about it with your opponent/TO before hand and see if they will house rule it otherwise. I'd be fine with it, personally, provided only the Lesser Daemons from the Marine codex Assaulted upon arrival. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Just talk about it with your opponent/TO before hand and see if they will house rule it otherwise. I'd be fine with it, personally, provided only the Lesser Daemons from the Marine codex Assaulted upon arrival. I think the spirit of the rule would allow for it, and I'm sure the people I play would agree. An errata/FAQ would be nice, though. A new codex with clarified rules would be even better. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118494 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I'd certainly allow for it, as it is... like -Max- said...in the spirit of the rules....I think we'll just make it a house rule until it's clarified or changed... ~BtW Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118511 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biaz Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Personally I'm thinking traitor guard. I love them both, but guard fill in our much needed range/heavy support. We can already do the whole cc gig daemons offer us, but having a squadron of demolisher russ' will finally lay low that ridiculous draigo wing, and then you can throw in a few valks, psykers, what have you, and have an excuse to use that fantastic renegade command squad from forge world. Don't get me wrong, I love daemons, but I feel we need more shooty. Also I despise the greater daemon models. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I'm hoping there are some traiter units beyond just cultists in the upcoming chaos marine book allowing me to have my cake and eat it too, as it were. Either way, my allies will be daemons, since I have some already. I'll eventually be collecting a daemon army designed to fit within the double ally detachment allowed in games of 2k+. Not that I ever intend to run the full thing together in a regular game - any game using that many points of allies would likely be so large as to be running the Apocalypse rules anyway, which would negate any restrictions to begin with... but still, for my own neurotic reasons I'd like to be able to run my entire daemon army as allies to my chaos marines in larger games of 40k. Heck, I got rid of most of my chaos marines back in the day, maybe I could do the vice versa thing as well? Hmm. Anyway, I like the 'equal amounts of each alignment' plan, so my projected daemon list is something like: Herald of each god, probably on steed for stat buffs while maintaining IC status bloodcrushers flamers bloodletters horrors plaguebearers daemonettes furies seekers soul grinder nurgle daemon prince Not necessarily the most functional list, but should be good enough to win a couple casual games, and it's all models I like (particularly if I decide to spring for the FW nurgle prince. Haven't decided yet on that. Anyway, it's a ways out. I've got the bloodletters and daemonettes already, I'll probably pick up heralds for each and then either bloodcrushers or seekers. The rest of the daemons will come after I'm done refurbishing my chaos marine army to fit the new book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I think I'll be using IG at first because I've already played allied games with my CSM and Daemons. Plus I really like the hydra flak tanks (already have two converted for my renegade IG). Plus its fluffier I think for Night Lords to work with renegades than with daemons if they can avoid it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted July 12, 2012 Author Share Posted July 12, 2012 Seems fairly evenly divided on Daemons vs IG. I think for now i will go with some IG since i got some models and i want to play with some of the psychic powers. I do have about 1k pts of daemons sitting in a box because of our 3.5 codex and how much i used daemons as a Word Bearer player, but for tonight it will be traitor guard me thinks. Thanks a TON for all the advice and input folks, glad to see the forums are still active. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3118968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Mk.231 Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 and then you pray the sm are not in cover and/or that you not happen to be an unlucky owner of the bloodies with axs models. Not a problem for the bloodletters if they're holding axes, as Hellblades have been FAQ'd to count as power swords specifically, not just power weapons, so you don't have to go by what the model is holding to determine it's type. Just make sure your opponent is informed that even though the model is holding an axe, it follows the rules for a sword. This was probably done specifically so players with the previous release bloodletters wouldn't get screwed simply for buying those models instead of the newer/older ones, seeing as the work needed to convert those particular models to hold swords and be in line with the new models would be beyond many players abilities. Personally, those axes were the exact reason I didn't buy those models and just held onto the previous ones, well, the axes and the hooves, they didn't feel right for bloodletters, so I won't have any problem when I bring them out to play. To the topic at hand, I'll personally be going with Orks, it'll give me an excuse to actually paint that horde of them sitting in the draw ... and I already have them so no purchases are required to boost the size of my army. I don't quite have enough Daemons to make them worth it (only have 10 bloodletters and 5 flesh hounds, all the old ones and no model to fill the HQ slot) and I want to wait and see what non-marine choices we get in the new codex before buying up a bunch of guard as I only have enough Steel Legion to make a Command and a platoon, 1 sentinal and 1 normal Russ. I can't use my Eldar at all so, meh. Orks on the other hand I have a decent amount of, enough to cover 2 allied detachments should the need arise. Still not sure what to paint them as though, most likely Blood Axes to justify them fighting alongside non-orks and accepting munitions in payment (something Iron Warriors have in abundance), though Bad Moons have always appealed to me ... oh well, it's not relevant here anyway. With the Orks you get tougher meatshields than guard (and if you're downrange from bolters the difference in save is moot), who are better in melee (though now slower on the charge than they were), shootas are better than lasguns if you're not using "First Rank, Fire!", their ballistic skill is only slightly worse, open-topped vehicles to deliver your mobs directly to combat, a flyer option, terminator-opening mega-nobz who will be harder for power axes to take down since they won't be instant killed, Flashgitz that now ignore cover saves, extremely cheap grots for sitting on objectives while your more effective units lay into the enemy and to top it off, you even have the option to give your meatshields 5+ invulnerable saves if you've got the points to throw around. If the new Chaos codex doesn't have anything similar to beastmen (they were in the 2nd ed codex, which is still my favourite codex of any army from any edition), which is what I'm using as my lesser daemons as they seem fittingly generic, I'll likely end up converting up a bunch and using them as Orks, specifically to use as allies for my Iron Warriors. That way I can also take some cultists and have a very decent representation of what was available to a 2nd ed Chaos warband, more so if the generic daemons stay around (though I doubt it very much, which I'm ok with, I can live without daemons as long as I get cultists and can represent beastmen in the same force - I'm all about the little guys of Chaos), though if they don't I can always just make some possessed that look a lot more like bloodletters for a reasonable fix. As for the question of Daemons using the Chaos Marines icons: The way I see it, the wording doesn't allow it, but I'd be willing to let it go and allow allied Daemons to land within 6" and not scatter. Charging after landing however would be a no-no, since it's not part of the icon rules, it's part of the lesser daemon summoning rules and since you're not summoning the specific lesser daemons the rule applies to, it's not something you can do ... which is the main reason I'm not too keen on Daemon allies, but then, I've never had too much beef with the lesser daemons as they are (the greater daemons are another matter), especially once their own codex came out and the option was there to use proper daemons should I choose to. And I realise I didn't give any input about your question regarding the choice between Guard and Daemons (sort of got carried away with my own thing), generally, I'd have to agree to choosing Guard over Daemons, mostly for the reasons that have already been stated, but also because I'm biased in favour of traitors over daemons ... as you may have already noticed. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3119025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 ot a problem for the bloodletters if they're holding axes, as Hellblades have been FAQ'd to count as power swords specifically, not just power weapons, so you don't have to go by what the model is holding to determine it's type. Just make sure your opponent is informed that even though the model is holding an axe, it follows the rules for a sword. nice catch . still no frags is i1 without the extra S and ap 2[the demons of khorn with blades that in fluff are able to cut titan hulls bounce of terminator and art armor]. Orcs are nice idea. gives us access to dakka jets and/or shokka attack gun/lootaz. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3119219 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotherMoses Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 You're a Word Bearer. You're taking Daemons. Its in the bylaws. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256226-who-to-take-as-an-ally/#findComment-3119257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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