Seahawk Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Didn't think anything of it until I reread the SM FAQ: Errata, Techmarine, Bolster Defenses: "For example, a normal ruin with a 4+ save for the walls and a 5+ cover save for the area terrain..." and I thought, "Why would there be two saves to speak of?" So I checked up on Area terrain, and sure enough, all Area Terrain provides a 5+ cover save. "Models in Area Terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured." (p.91) Then I checked up on cover saves, and found: "The type of cover save a model receives depends on exactly what he is sheltering behind." (p.18) And finally I hopped over to Ruins, where, to my chagrin, I found: "A ruin might be mounted on a base...in this case, treat the base as Area Terrain." (p.98) I couldn't find anything else. So that means all ruins (with a base) provide two cover saves: A 4+ if you're actually behind the walls, and a 5+ if you're just milling about in the middle, not actually behind anything. Wow, that makes model placement important. Finally though, a squad whose members are out on the sidewalk no longer gain a 4+ cover save! This is a VERY important change to the game that I feel people should know about if they didn't catch it before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Nice catch, Seahawk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 So that means all ruins (with a base) provide two cover saves: A 4+ if you're actually behind the walls, and a 5+ if you're just milling about in the middle, not actually behind anything. I'm at work, so I don't have my rulebook, but I remember very, very distinctly seeing this in the BGB. I.E. 4+ in a ruin, 5+ in a forest or the like, etc. There are also rules for jumping off the top of a ruin or building and taking falling damage as a result which is ridiculously awesome. But, anyway, you don't need the SM FAQ to back you up. :P I'm pretty sure it's in the book proper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingo Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 I like it. Makes those typical 'open-sided' ruins that GW kits build so well that much more interesting. Shooting 'into' them from an open side, rather then shooting 'through' them from a walled side are now two different situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoreDraconis Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Agreed! WYSIWYG terrain ftw! Gets even more interesting when you remember that we have "focus fire" now. Ah 6th edition...why you gotta be so cool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Also, there's a very clear rule in there that states "If your model can't fit somewhere, it cannot BE there" with regard to ruins and levels. That was a local house rule around here so it was nice to see it in practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Also, there's a very clear rule in there that states "If your model can't fit somewhere, it cannot BE there" with regard to ruins and levels. That was a local house rule around here so it was nice to see it in practice. Where, exactly, is that thade? Because I'm lookiung at Wobbly Model Syndrome, which would seem to be at odds with what you're describing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted July 11, 2012 Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 So that means all ruins (with a base) provide two cover saves: A 4+ if you're actually behind the walls, and a 5+ if you're just milling about in the middle, not actually behind anything. I'm at work, so I don't have my rulebook, but I remember very, very distinctly seeing this in the BGB. I.E. 4+ in a ruin, 5+ in a forest or the like, etc. I'm pretty sure it's in the book proper. Yes and no. Ruins provide a 4+ cover save yes, but Ruins, in and of themselves, are not Area Terrain. Only the base is Area Terrain (and all Area Terrain is a 5+), essentially making it a two-part piece of terrain: the ruins and the base. The ruins provide the 4+ and the base provides the 5+. Gotta replace your mental schema of what a "ruin" consists of, as it's not the same as it was in 5th edition :D. And yes, it's in the book proper, as I originally quoted :D. There are also rules for jumping off the top of a ruin or building and taking falling damage as a result which is ridiculously awesome.The title of said rule is hilarious too! Makes those typical 'open-sided' ruins that GW kits build so well that much more interesting. Shooting 'into' them from an open side, rather then shooting 'through' them from a walled side are now two different situations.Yes indeedy! They very much switched up the rules for ruins and buildings...I'm still soaking in new knowledge about it. @ dswanick: Page 98, MOVING WITHIN RUINS, 2nd sentence: "...and only if the model can physically be placed there." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoreDraconis Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 Kinda on topic, kinda off...but take a peek at the C:SM "bolster defenses" errata. Apply it exactly as indicated (replace only the last sentence). That don't seem right! Now look at the Blood angels and Grey knights entry for the same rule. looks like someone messed up :D Great that they're allowing techmarines to reinforce ANY terrain now instead of just ruins, makes things WAY less situational, but i hope they fix it to match in the SM FAQ or i'm calling shenans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted July 11, 2012 Author Share Posted July 11, 2012 Oh yea, you're right! C:SM Techmarines can only bolster Ruins, while C:BA and C:GK can bolster ANY piece of terrain! Dang, I'd love to have me some bolstered Aegis lines for my Ultramarines...oh wait I can: Allies! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoreDraconis Posted July 11, 2012 Share Posted July 11, 2012 It's clearly gotta be an error, im sure. the errata doesnt even really make sense the way it's worded in the SM FAQ. It states the terrain example twice and replaces the sentence limiting how many times you can reinforce. So if someone really wanted to be a beardy jerk, they could keep reinforcing a ruin down to a 2+ save and cite the FAQ as their excuse. Not that anyone would let that fly..but clearly they gotta fix it. When they do I'm sure they'll bring it in line with the other codices. Oh, and no reinforcing your fortification! They specify that in the GK and BA FAQs as well. (damn! :) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Does an error in an errata need an errerrata? Or is it like the double negative thing, where being wrong twice makes you twice as right, or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadieau Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Speaking of saves, what save does a building provide? How about a vehicle? Not being in one but being behind one. I have this elaborate terrain/building/armor value chart running through my head but it would be nice if a real rule covered it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Casman Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Being behind a vehicle would fall under Intervening Models, would it not? I'm not certain about being behind a building, but I would tentatively assign a generic 5+, if it isn't described in the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 C:SM Techmarines can only bolster Ruins, while C:BA and C:GK can bolster ANY piece of terrain! Dang, I'd love to have me some bolstered Aegis lines for my Ultramarines...oh wait I can: Allies! I'm sure the GK errata states you can't boost purchase 'fortifications'. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoreDraconis Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Does an error in an errata need an errerrata? Or is it like the double negative thing, where being wrong twice makes you twice as right, or something? haha! only GW...seriously...I've never seen such a sad showing for documents that are supposed to correct errors. I think they have a list of material types to help you determine the cover saves ,dont they? so if the building is stone and metal, 4+ If it's wood it's 5+ i believe. Tanks are more iffy, since they're units. Will have to look that up tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted July 12, 2012 Author Share Posted July 12, 2012 Intervening units are a straight 5+, no matter what type of unit it is. Walls are listed as a 4+ cover save on page 104, so I'd go with that for guys peeking around buildings. They got rid of the different materials chart, so it's a straight 4+ for any construction type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinyRhino Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Intervening units are a straight 5+, no matter what type of unit it is. Walls are listed as a 4+ cover save on page 104, so I'd go with that for guys peeking around buildings. They got rid of the different materials chart, so it's a straight 4+ for any construction type. It's also worth noting that if a unit has member behind a building who you cannot draw LOS to, they cannot be removed as casualties. And if they cannot be removed as casualties, there's no cover save at all for the ones in the open, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Intervening units are a straight 5+, no matter what type of unit it is. Walls are listed as a 4+ cover save on page 104, so I'd go with that for guys peeking around buildings. They got rid of the different materials chart, so it's a straight 4+ for any construction type. It's also worth noting that if a unit has member behind a building who you cannot draw LOS to, they cannot be removed as casualties. And if they cannot be removed as casualties, there's no cover save at all for the ones in the open, right? Isn't that the purpose of "Focus Fire"? If half the unit is getting a 5+ Cover save due to an intervening unit and the other half is in the open you can choose - to fire at the whole unit giving all the models the 5+ Cover save and potentially removing all the models, - or you can Focus Fire on the models in the open, nullifying the Cover save but not being able to allocate wounds to the guys in the 5+ Cover (in this case behind the intervening unit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoreDraconis Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Nope, focus fire deals with models occupying different cover save areas. There's a new rule that states if you cannot see it, you cannot kill it, even if it is in a unit you can target. No more firing on 2 dudes that are hanging out and getting hits on the whole squad. Great change imo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted July 12, 2012 Author Share Posted July 12, 2012 Nope, two different things. If the shooter does not have LoS to models in the target unit, those models cannot die no matter what. (Example: 3 guys in the open, 5 guys behind a building and out of LoS) If the shooter wants to focus fire on guys in the open as opposed to those in cover that he has LoS to, he's allowed to shoot at certain dudes instead. (Example: 3 guys in the open, 3 guys behind a 3+ cover save, 2 guys behind a building and out of LoS) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I understand that, but Cover saves are evaluated on a model by model basis - so if a model stands to benefit from a 5+ Cover save due to an intervening unit some part of it must be visible. Yes, if one guy is completely obscured by a tank - it can't be seen, it can't be wounded. It's also worth noting that if a unit has member behind a building who you cannot draw LOS to, they cannot be removed as casualties. And if they cannot be removed as casualties, there's no cover save at all for the ones in the open, right? There is no Cover save for model's in the open regardless of how many other model's in the unit are in Cover. The phrasing of this question was what made me think that an obscured but not non-visible model was what was being referred to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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