Power swords/axe/mauls - which to choose?

[warsmith]

Hey all,

 

I've a small (600 points) blood angels force that I'm trying to get battle ready for when I help out with a local school club and I'm a little undecided as to what to put where power weapons wise. On first thoughts I had come up with the idea that axes on characters such as priests was a bad idea but having ready a few of the threads lately it may not be? At the moment I was thinking the following:

 

Jump Pack Librarian - Force Sword

Jump Priest - Power Sword

Jump Sergeant - Power Axe/Combat Shield (leads squad of 4 other marines with a meltagun).

Jump Sergeant - Power Axe/Combat Shield (leads squad of 4 other marines with a meltagun).

Jump Sergeant - Power Sword (leads squad of 4 other marines with a meltagun).

 

I was going to team each axe wielding sergeant with a sword wielding character to be the fall guy in challenges but now I'm not so sure so I throw this open to you guys to give me some suggestions and help.

 

Thanks in advance

 

Dan

[Morticon]

A lot is going to come down to what your local area meta is and who is fighting whom.

 

Math-hammer wise I believe it works like this:

 

Pwr Swords better than Pwr Mauls vs.

 

T4 and T5 @ 3+ save.

 

Pwr Mauls better than Pwr Swords vs.

 

T6 @ all save

Any T and 2+ save, 4+ save (or worse).

 

Pwr Lances better than Pwr Swds only when charging (so best on jumpers/bikers)

 

 

Axes are not factored in because they have lower Init - but with fists/hammers/axes

 

vs.

 

T2- T4 @ 2+ save (or worse) Axe is better (more attacks)

 

T5 + or (T4 or less with FNP) Fist is better.

[BloodTzar]

For sarges I started to make them :

 

LC + PF , as you have 2 special weapons you have 4 attacks each on charge and just pick your I.

 

~BT

[JamesI]

Spears I think would be best in a unit running around with Dante for Hit and Run and repeated charging.

 

I would generally go swords over mauls, unless it was an 4+ armor save heavy area. But I could see throwing a power maul into a squad like Vanguard or Honor Guard or DC that already have multiple power weapons. Though I would probably just go with a Chaplain for that.

 

Axe versus swords is the big one to me. I have used both and I like both. My current way of thinking is if I will have 2 power weapons in a squad, 1 is an axe 1 is a sword. But if I only have 1, go with the sword.

 

 

 

For sarges I started to make them :

 

LC + PF , as you have 2 special weapons you have 4 attacks each on charge and just pick your I.

 

~BT

I've considered this, but it seems really expensive. Though I guess its not as bad as my powerfist/stormshield sergeant.

[Xenith]

I've just hit upon the revelation that you want your priests to attack last.

 

If they pile in early, then they get more people attacking them back at lower I. If they pile in last, they get fewer attacks back. Of course, this relies on you hanging back with them in the assault phase and not getting into B2B initially.

 

Alternatively, they could attack earlier, and you could try and wipe the opposing character through directed attacks, etc.

 

Its swings and roundabouts, really. I think GW have done a good job in differing the weapons so there is no obvious choice, and by making I1 not as bad as it used to be.

 

The only way to work it out is by playing, and seeing what you like best, and what challenges end up like.

 

Either way, I think that combat shields are a bit of a waste of points.

[Brightguy]

I think your loadout is alright, if risky. When the ICs have Swords and the Sarges have Axes I feel you have to let the ICs take challenges. If the Axe carrying Sarge gets into a challenge there is too large a chance he never gets to attack, even with the Combat shield. That means a higher chance of losing your IC in the challenge or wasting the Sarge. Personally I'd rather have the sword on the Sarge (the 6+ combat shield probably isn't helping a lot) and the Axe on the ICs. Feed the Sarge into challenge. He gets a decent shot to do something, especially against fist and axe armed counterparts where he's swinging first. If not, then you only lose the sarge. Then the IC with the axe comes in at the end of the round and slams opposing troopers.

[warsmith]

Thanks for the responses and help guys. Its been much appreciated and I think I've come up with a plan!

 

For sarges I started to make them :

 

LC + PF , as you have 2 special weapons you have 4 attacks each on charge and just pick your I.

 

~BT

 

Wow! Thats extremely expensive! I'd love to have such redundancy in the units but just dont have the points for it as its only going to be for a 600 point force!

 

I've just hit upon the revelation that you want your priests to attack last.

 

If they pile in early, then they get more people attacking them back at lower I. If they pile in last, they get fewer attacks back. Of course, this relies on you hanging back with them in the assault phase and not getting into B2B initially.

 

Alternatively, they could attack earlier, and you could try and wipe the opposing character through directed attacks, etc.

 

Its swings and roundabouts, really. I think GW have done a good job in differing the weapons so there is no obvious choice, and by making I1 not as bad as it used to be.

 

The only way to work it out is by playing, and seeing what you like best, and what challenges end up like.

 

Either way, I think that combat shields are a bit of a waste of points.

 

I'm also now leaning towards the idea of a power axe on the priest and trying to get them to pile in from the back.. As for combat shield I had 10 points spare and the bits in my bits box and I couldnt think of anything else to use the points on.

 

 

I think your loadout is alright, if risky. When the ICs have Swords and the Sarges have Axes I feel you have to let the ICs take challenges. If the Axe carrying Sarge gets into a challenge there is too large a chance he never gets to attack, even with the Combat shield. That means a higher chance of losing your IC in the challenge or wasting the Sarge. Personally I'd rather have the sword on the Sarge (the 6+ combat shield probably isn't helping a lot) and the Axe on the ICs. Feed the Sarge into challenge. He gets a decent shot to do something, especially against fist and axe armed counterparts where he's swinging first. If not, then you only lose the sarge. Then the IC with the axe comes in at the end of the round and slams opposing troopers.

 

Would you have a force axe on the librarain though? I'm still undecuded on this at the moment.

 

So, as I said at the top of the post I think I have a plan and the plan looks like this

 

Jump Pack Librarian - Force Sword

Jump Priest - Power Axe

Jump Sergeant - Power Sword/Combat Shield (leads squad of 4 other marines with a meltagun).

Jump Sergeant - Power Sword/Combat Shield (leads squad of 4 other marines with a meltagun).

Jump Sergeant - Power Sword (leads squad of 4 other marines with a meltagun).

 

So simply swapping the priests sword for an axe and the two sergeant axes for swords. It still doesnt feel 'right' but it certainly feels better.

 

Thanks so far guys.

 

Dan

[dswanick]

I've just hit upon the revelation that you want your priests to attack last.

 

If they pile in early, then they get more people attacking them back at lower I. If they pile in last, they get fewer attacks back. Of course, this relies on you hanging back with them in the assault phase and not getting into B2B initially.

The flaw in your thinking is that while a model armed with an Unwieldy weapon resolves his strikes at I1 he still piles in at his base I (of 4 for most marines). This will help him survive I5+ attacks but he will still be vulnerable to I2-4 dudes.

[eyeslikethunder]

yup you would only pile in last if you had affected by a concussive weapon, survived and then needed to pile in after(next round).

 

Concussive weapons make you I1

unwieldy make you strike at I1

[JamesI]

For sarges I started to make them :

 

LC + PF , as you have 2 special weapons you have 4 attacks each on charge and just pick your I.

 

~BT

I've considered this, but it seems really expensive. Though I guess its not as bad as my powerfist/stormshield sergeant.

I modeled one up with claw/fist and liked how it looked. I'll try it Monday.

[DominicJ]

I'm thinking fists mauls and axes are all good.

 

True mauls lose out to swords against power armour, but S6 is pretty handy.

 

Depends highly on who you play, but I'm less worried than I was about my chaplins mauls.

 

For people like Sanguinary priests, axes all the way, you want them OUT of combat, the last thing you want is a seargent with a pf to pile in and kapow your "heroes"

[sp4rky]

yup you would only pile in last if you had affected by a concussive weapon, survived and then needed to pile in after(next round).

 

Concussive weapons make you I1

unwieldy make you strike at I1

 

I'm not buying in to this... Unwieldy says in combat you fight at initiative step 1 so I wouldn't pile-in at i4 then attack at i1, I'd do it all at i1.

 

 

On topic - I have a Librarian in Terminator Armour with a Force Maul and he has done plenty of damage so far in my games. He's taken out a tank, killed terminators, and beaten up power armoured enemies. Admittedly that was with the help of re-rolling hits from Prescience and a bit of Iron Arm thrown in for even more strength :D.

 

I imagine that a maul would be much better on a Captain or on a Death Company marine (5 attacks on the charge at strength 7!) or anyone capable of getting lots of attacks.

 

 

I have found that almost overnight Terminators have appeared everywhere and Mauls are better than Swords in that particular fight. Axes, though, I'm still not sold on. I feel like it's a cheap man's Fist - cheaper in price, less strength but 1 more attack (assuming a pistol or something alongside it).

[dswanick]

Concussive weapons make you I1

unwieldy make you strike at I1

 

I'm not buying in to this... Unwieldy says in combat you fight at initiative step 1 so I wouldn't pile-in at i4 then attack at i1, I'd do it all at i1.

But that's exactly it :

- model's pile in to combat in the step equal to their Initiative characteristic. (BRB, Pg.23)

- model's attack with an Unwieldy weapon at Initiative step 1, regardless of their Initiative characteristic. (BRB, Pg.43)

- Concussive reduces the wounded model's Initiative characteritic to 1 until the end of the next Assault phase. (BRB, Pg.35)

[sp4rky]

Well blow me down. This is why I enjoy reading your posts in the OR forum, they're always insightful and helpful.

 

So I guess Mr Fist runs is whilst slowly lifting his arm then (some time later) punches something very hard :)

[Marik]

Concussive weapons make you I1

unwieldy make you strike at I1

 

I'm not buying in to this... Unwieldy says in combat you fight at initiative step 1 so I wouldn't pile-in at i4 then attack at i1, I'd do it all at i1.

But that's exactly it :

- model's pile in to combat in the step equal to their Initiative characteristic. (BRB, Pg.23)

- model's attack with an Unwieldy weapon at Initiative step 1, regardless of their Initiative characteristic. (BRB, Pg.43)

- Concussive reduces the wounded model's Initiative characteritic to 1 until the end of the next Assault phase. (BRB, Pg.35)

 

 

But doesn't the example on page 23 have a model with a unweildly weapon making his pile-in at i1 and striking at i1.

[dswanick]

Concussive weapons make you I1

unwieldy make you strike at I1

 

I'm not buying in to this... Unwieldy says in combat you fight at initiative step 1 so I wouldn't pile-in at i4 then attack at i1, I'd do it all at i1.

But that's exactly it :

- model's pile in to combat in the step equal to their Initiative characteristic. (BRB, Pg.23)

- model's attack with an Unwieldy weapon at Initiative step 1, regardless of their Initiative characteristic. (BRB, Pg.43)

- Concussive reduces the wounded model's Initiative characteritic to 1 until the end of the next Assault phase. (BRB, Pg.35)

 

 

But doesn't the example on page 23 have a model with a unweildly weapon making his pile-in at i1 and striking at i1.

Would it surprise you that an example game didn't conform to the rules as written?

I remember reading a bat-rep involving Space Wolves when the new codex was first released, which included a pack of 9 Grey Hunters and a Wolf Guard Pack Leader and the pack had two special weapons - which can only be taken if the pack has 10 Grey Hunters not counting a Wolf Guard Pack Leader.

 

+Edit+ No, the example combat on Pg.23 does not state that the Sergeant with the Unwieldy Power Fist is Piling In at all - it simply states that the squad charges and then goes on to detail each model Striking at it's Initiative step.

[Marik]

Concussive weapons make you I1

unwieldy make you strike at I1

 

I'm not buying in to this... Unwieldy says in combat you fight at initiative step 1 so I wouldn't pile-in at i4 then attack at i1, I'd do it all at i1.

But that's exactly it :

- model's pile in to combat in the step equal to their Initiative characteristic. (BRB, Pg.23)

- model's attack with an Unwieldy weapon at Initiative step 1, regardless of their Initiative characteristic. (BRB, Pg.43)

- Concussive reduces the wounded model's Initiative characteritic to 1 until the end of the next Assault phase. (BRB, Pg.35)

 

 

But doesn't the example on page 23 have a model with a unweildly weapon making his pile-in at i1 and striking at i1.

Would it surprise you that an example game didn't conform to the rules as written?

I remember reading a bat-rep involving Space Wolves when the new codex was first released, which included a pack of 9 Grey Hunters and a Wolf Guard Pack Leader and the pack had two special weapons - which can only be taken if the pack has 10 Grey Hunters not counting a Wolf Guard Pack Leader.

 

+Edit+ No, the example combat on Pg.23 does not state that the Sergeant with the Unwieldy Power Fist is Piling In at all - it simply states that the squad charges and then goes on to detail each model Striking at it's Initiative step.

 

1) Hah, good point GW examples are well GW

 

2) Thanks for the edit update I don't have the big book in front of me so just working from my (shotty at best) memory.

[Venemox]

Well, then if a High I model piles in, makes his attacks, then gets concussed at a lower I (before 1): would he then re-pile in and re-attack at I 1?

[dswanick]

Well, then if a High I model piles in, makes his attacks, then gets concussed at a lower I (before 1): would he then re-pile in and re-attack at I 1?

Strictly by R.A.W. I would say yes, except that I would point out that R.A.W. also says that a model attacks with a number of attacks equal to it's A characteristic plus relevant bonuses for two melee weapons, charging, etc. and said model has already attacked with that number of attacks this fight subphase. So the only "benefit" I can reasonably see would be an extra Pile In move which just opens the model up to getting whacked by big I1 weapons.

[Dragonet40k]

Strictly by R.A.W. I would say yes, except that I would point out that R.A.W. also says that a model attacks with a number of attacks equal to it's A characteristic plus relevant bonuses for two melee weapons, charging, etc. and said model has already attacked with that number of attacks this fight subphase. So the only "benefit" I can reasonably see would be an extra Pile In move which just opens the model up to getting whacked by big I1 weapons.

 

Not sure, since I've still not got my BRB yet (/grumble), but you could potentially use it to move away from the models with I1 attacks to models that have already had their attacks?

[Mezkh]

Def go with axes on the ICs when you can, the +1 Str/AP2 is the best of both worlds, and just LOS precision wounds away on a 2+ = they will very much always get those power attacks in.

 

Sergeants are the fall guys in BA so I wouldn't spend many points on them. A spear on Jumpers wouldn't go amiss to get to that Str6 AP3 on the charge, but it would be the first thing I cut for points.