Flyers and their tactical effectiveness

[Cmdr Shepard]

Greetings Battle Brothers,

 

The purpose of this topic is to discuss the tactical effectiveness of Flyers on the battlefield.

I believe flyers has been one of the most "hyped" additions to the game but I wonder if they are so advantageous are it seems; so effective to the point of becoming an essential part of our armies.

 

What's your opinion on flyers tactical effectiveness for our armies?

 

Since there is already a topic about counter-flyers tactics I thought we'd need a topic about using flyers themselves ;)

 

Let the brainstorming commence :D

[DerekLee688]

The way flyers were implemented means they will never be as powerful as they are now, because the missile launcher flak missile upgrade is not purchaseable until they do another update for every codex or 6ed codex to come out for every race.

 

So have your fun with flyers while you can. It's only going to get more balanced from here on out.

 

I plan to get some IG allies for my AV12 fliers, and a BA/GK storm raven to sub in for my tougher AV12 flier/dread carrier.

[Cmdr Shepard]

The way flyers were implemented means they will never be as powerful as they are now, because the missile launcher flak missile upgrade is not purchaseable until they do another update for every codex or 6ed codex to come out for every race.

 

So have your fun with flyers while you can. It's only going to get more balanced from here on out.

 

I plan to get some IG allies for my AV12 fliers, and a BA/GK storm raven to sub in for my tougher AV12 flier/dread carrier.

The current unavailability of flakk missiles isundeniably shifting the "balance of power" towards flyers. However I suspect units with a good amount of fire power (Long Fangs, for example) will able to bring a flyer down if they concentrate fire. Once they roll a 6 they won't have problems in glancing/pen the armor and, in the last case, a lucky roll will result in a dead flyer.

 

I have two Stormravens for my GK, two Stormtalons for SM and a Vendetta. I wonder if fielding 3 flyers (for example 2 GK stormravens with an allied IG Vendetta) will give me a relevant tactical advantage or if I could use those points (especially the ones of the two Stormravens) to field more "versatile" units.

I'm a huge fan of flyers but still I wonder about the best choice, tactically speaking, of course :(

[Lucien Eilam]

So have your fun with flyers while you can. It's only going to get more balanced from here on out.

Maybe, maybe not. Flakk missiles could be a +5 pt upgrade for anyone with a missile launcher, or a +50 pt upgrade only available to Space Marine Scouts, or anything in-between. No point speculating till the first Codex comes out.

 

My bet though is that the "balance" will fall with the new plastic kits retailing for £27.50 each rather than the upgrade to existing models that you don't even have to model. Follow the money. I'm sure flyers being the best anti-flyer unit is intentional.

[ShinyRhino]

Flyers feel balanced already, and they will become LESS useful as more and more armies have access to AA weapons.

They have a limited turn radius, minimum movement requirements, limited fire arcs, must start in reserves, and Flyer transports have to drop to Hover to dump out passengers. With proper maneuvering, you can mitigate or deny the effects of the flyer. It won't be EASY, but it's doable.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Flyers feel balanced already, and they will become LESS useful as more and more armies have access to AA weapons.

They have a limited turn radius, minimum movement requirements, limited fire arcs, must start in reserves, and Flyer transports have to drop to Hover to dump out passengers. With proper maneuvering, you can mitigate or deny the effects of the flyer. It won't be EASY, but it's doable.

 

So regarding to the original question: do you think flyers are an "advantageous asset" for our armies, or should we allocate those points for something else?

 

I think flyers are the best A/A assets so if we are about to encounter other flyers their inclusion in the army seems a must but what about the matches when we know our opponent will not field flyers?

[FlamingDeth]

While flyers seem useful it all comes down to how you're building your list. Since bastions and defense lines are available for everyone, I think that the only people who are going to have trouble dealing with them are he ones that are unwilling to buy/convert something new for their army. As for how to use fliers, kit them out with whatever your army is lacking. They're about as flexible as speeders.

[pingo]

Flyers with pintle-mounted weapons look very useful to me.

 

Ones with hull-mounted weapons, perhaps less so.

 

Not sure the OP's question is one that can be answered: at least not at this early stage.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Flyers with pintle-mounted weapons look very useful to me.

 

Ones with hull-mounted weapons, perhaps less so.

 

Not sure the OP's question is one that can be answered: at least not at this early stage.

At this early stage I'd like to know if Flyers are so useful to be an "auto-inculde" choice even against opponets without flyers in the armies, for example...

[ShinyRhino]

Flyers feel balanced already, and they will become LESS useful as more and more armies have access to AA weapons.

They have a limited turn radius, minimum movement requirements, limited fire arcs, must start in reserves, and Flyer transports have to drop to Hover to dump out passengers. With proper maneuvering, you can mitigate or deny the effects of the flyer. It won't be EASY, but it's doable.

 

So regarding to the original question: do you think flyers are an "advantageous asset" for our armies, or should we allocate those points for something else?

 

I think flyers are the best A/A assets so if we are about to encounter other flyers their inclusion in the army seems a must but what about the matches when we know our opponent will not field flyers?

 

No, I do not think Flyers are an auto-include for army lists, due to the restrictions I mentioned above. None of the current Flyers do anything for their respective armies that units in those armies cannot already do, except maybe the Doom Scythe for Necrons and its Death Ray. Usage of Flyers and Flying Monstrous Creatures is very much dictated by their movement requirements, fire arcs, the composition of the enemy army, and the terrain as laid out on the table.

Add in the fact that every player seems to be adding in a knee-jerk reaction unit (Aegis line, Bastions, etc) and you have some hostile skies for these new unit types.

Flyers and FMCs have undeniable utility and ability to compliment an existing build, but their balanced nature moves them from "must have" to "nice to have."

[Cmdr Shepard]

Flyers feel balanced already, and they will become LESS useful as more and more armies have access to AA weapons.

They have a limited turn radius, minimum movement requirements, limited fire arcs, must start in reserves, and Flyer transports have to drop to Hover to dump out passengers. With proper maneuvering, you can mitigate or deny the effects of the flyer. It won't be EASY, but it's doable.

 

So regarding to the original question: do you think flyers are an "advantageous asset" for our armies, or should we allocate those points for something else?

 

I think flyers are the best A/A assets so if we are about to encounter other flyers their inclusion in the army seems a must but what about the matches when we know our opponent will not field flyers?

 

No, I do not think Flyers are an auto-include for army lists, due to the restrictions I mentioned above. None of the current Flyers do anything for their respective armies that units in those armies cannot already do, except maybe the Doom Scythe for Necrons and its Death Ray. Usage of Flyers and Flying Monstrous Creatures is very much dictated by their movement requirements, fire arcs, the composition of the enemy army, and the terrain as laid out on the table.

Add in the fact that every player seems to be adding in a knee-jerk reaction unit (Aegis line, Bastions, etc) and you have some hostile skies for these new unit types.

Flyers and FMCs have undeniable utility and ability to compliment an existing build, but their balanced nature moves them from "must have" to "nice to have."

 

I just came from my local game store. Even though I hadn't the time to play a match I made some "movement tests" for flyers with a couple of friends.

I have to say it is problematic, especially if the table if filled with scenary. Flyers ignore terrain during movement but you have to find a place to place them :D

The other problem is arc of fire. Zooming 18" with a max 90° pivot will not make target acquisition easy. Unless you plan your trajectory carefully during each turn you may end with very few available targets.

I know there will be some time to become familiar with flyers but for now they don't see so "game changing".

 

Anyway, Flying MCs seem different: they are smaller and you usually want them to fly for a turn then charge the next one. You don't have to keep them on the sky for the entire match like flyers ;)

[ShinyRhino]

One thing I do see as limited utility are Flyer Transports. The need to go into Hover mode to be able to drop passengers is essentially saying "I'm trading this points-expensive Flyer in order to get this unit to Point X." Flyers in Hover mode are going to have a hard time not being blasted out of the sky (and landing on top of their recently-disembarked squad!). They're just too fragile for anything other than a late-game trooper dump.

[Cmdr Shepard]

One thing I do see as limited utility are Flyer Transports. The need to go into Hover mode to be able to drop passengers is essentially saying "I'm trading this points-expensive Flyer in order to get this unit to Point X." Flyers in Hover mode are going to have a hard time not being blasted out of the sky (and landing on top of their recently-disembarked squad!). They're just too fragile for anything other than a late-game trooper dump.

I strongly agree Flyer Transports. If you want a Flyer use it as Interceptor or Gunship.

[JamesI]

One thing I do see as limited utility are Flyer Transports. The need to go into Hover mode to be able to drop passengers is essentially saying "I'm trading this points-expensive Flyer in order to get this unit to Point X." Flyers in Hover mode are going to have a hard time not being blasted out of the sky (and landing on top of their recently-disembarked squad!). They're just too fragile for anything other than a late-game trooper dump.

I strongly agree Flyer Transports. If you want a Flyer use it as Interceptor or Gunship.

This is my experience so far.

 

I would only use a Flyer Transport for something I intend to drop off the turn the flyer arrives with skies of blood from my Storm Raven, but at that point I might as well deep strike it normally anyway.

 

I think Flyers are good, but as Flakk missiles or Aegis Defense lines become more common, they will diminish.

[KhorneHunter57x]

The other problem is arc of fire. Zooming 18" with a max 90° pivot will not make target acquisition easy. Unless you plan your trajectory carefully during each turn you may end with very few available targets.

I think this issue will matter for some flyers more than others. Those with Vector Dancer, or with non-fixed mount weaponry (such as the Stormtalon's chin mount Assault Cannon) will end up being more useful than others.

 

Now, if only they will give us a 40k-ified AC-130, with all of the guns in the port side... :cuss

[Grey Mage]

They are not mandatory to win the game- you need nothing more than an HQ and two troops, and that much only so you dont get disqualified :D.

 

Anyways.....

 

They are an important tactical consideration. You have to consider their presence on the field, and decide what you need to invest in to kill them. If you already have massed heavy weapons fire- such as a 15 strong set of lascannon heavy weapon teams I saw in a recent IG 1k list- you may not need anything more or less to get the job done. You might counter flyers with flyers of your own.

 

Or you might exploit them to soak up alot of fire or deal alot of damage on behalf of your army... 3 stormtalons escorting your rhinos/bikes for example. Does your opponent blast the squad on the ground, and perhaps save the objectives youll want to be taking.... or blast them out of the sky and likely have to ignore the vehicle on the ground? Forcing those kinds of choices means that cheaper flyers operating in a support role are very powerful IMHO. More so than flying transports like the Stormraven, wherein your opponent knows he MUST deal with it or face the full wrath of your hammer unit inside and its own firepower besides.

[Cmdr Shepard]

They are not mandatory to win the game- you need nothing more than an HQ and two troops, and that much only so you dont get disqualified :rolleyes:.

 

Anyways.....

 

They are an important tactical consideration. You have to consider their presence on the field, and decide what you need to invest in to kill them. If you already have massed heavy weapons fire- such as a 15 strong set of lascannon heavy weapon teams I saw in a recent IG 1k list- you may not need anything more or less to get the job done. You might counter flyers with flyers of your own.

 

Or you might exploit them to soak up alot of fire or deal alot of damage on behalf of your army... 3 stormtalons escorting your rhinos/bikes for example. Does your opponent blast the squad on the ground, and perhaps save the objectives youll want to be taking.... or blast them out of the sky and likely have to ignore the vehicle on the ground? Forcing those kinds of choices means that cheaper flyers operating in a support role are very powerful IMHO. More so than flying transports like the Stormraven, wherein your opponent knows he MUST deal with it or face the full wrath of your hammer unit inside and its own firepower besides.

 

What would you suggest if the opponent has no flyer and few vehicles, for example? Stormravens/Stormtalons don't kill a lot of infanty models per turn... Stormravens have hurrican bolter but they increase its cost...

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I think we lucked out with the Storm Talon, actually, because it addresses several of these issues.

 

1.) Zooming. With such a limited movement ability, the ST's Hover Strike mode lets you reset the direction you're facing. Now I know that non-Supersonic Flyers like the Raven can do this better by being Fast Skimmers, but we get a shooting benefit from it (BS5 and Pinning). Once you've done some shooting and reset your vector (if you survive) you can then go back to Flyer mode and start plinking targets again.

 

2.) Dual Role. If the enemy has no Flyers, the Talon can still be employed against ground targets by going into Hover Strike for the aforementioned BS5 and Pinning. With the exception of the lascannons, all of the weapon options on a Talon are prime for anti-infantry work.

 

Is it an awesome Flyer? No. I know that I'll be taking one or two for air defense for sure, though. Storm Ravens are dime a dozen where I'm at, so I need something capable of shooting those bastards down as quickly as possible, and right now, the Talon is our only real weapon against them.

[Disruptor_fe404]

One thing I do see as limited utility are Flyer Transports. The need to go into Hover mode to be able to drop passengers is essentially saying "I'm trading this points-expensive Flyer in order to get this unit to Point X." Flyers in Hover mode are going to have a hard time not being blasted out of the sky (and landing on top of their recently-disembarked squad!). They're just too fragile for anything other than a late-game trooper dump.

 

Isn't this something of a non-issue if you disembark before the flyer turns ninety and Zooms?

 

I guess losing out on the 6" of movement might be much for some people, but wouldn't the flyer already have covered a ton of ground?

[Grey Mage]

They are not mandatory to win the game- you need nothing more than an HQ and two troops, and that much only so you dont get disqualified :P.

 

Anyways.....

 

They are an important tactical consideration. You have to consider their presence on the field, and decide what you need to invest in to kill them. If you already have massed heavy weapons fire- such as a 15 strong set of lascannon heavy weapon teams I saw in a recent IG 1k list- you may not need anything more or less to get the job done. You might counter flyers with flyers of your own.

 

Or you might exploit them to soak up alot of fire or deal alot of damage on behalf of your army... 3 stormtalons escorting your rhinos/bikes for example. Does your opponent blast the squad on the ground, and perhaps save the objectives youll want to be taking.... or blast them out of the sky and likely have to ignore the vehicle on the ground? Forcing those kinds of choices means that cheaper flyers operating in a support role are very powerful IMHO. More so than flying transports like the Stormraven, wherein your opponent knows he MUST deal with it or face the full wrath of your hammer unit inside and its own firepower besides.

 

What would you suggest if the opponent has no flyer and few vehicles, for example? Stormravens/Stormtalons don't kill a lot of infanty models per turn... Stormravens have hurrican bolter but they increase its cost...

Stormtalon with Assault Cannons and Skyhammer missiles- or cyclone missiles- can put out a respectable hail of anti-infantry firepower at medium range, and as a flyer has enough durability to make the AC worth it- as opposed to on a landspeeder, where you want 36"+.

 

The Stormraven though? What youre really looking at in that case is a much, much better and cheaper landraider. At 200-230pts you have approximately to slightly less firepower compared to a standard landraider, can move much much faster, still assault out of it, carry squads just as large AND a dreadnaught, and find it more survivable against many weapons. The real weapon is the squad inside though, not the 'Raven itself. Wich is why its going to be a bigger target- because you want to stop it, and explode those inside it while you can- until it offloads its cargo. That urgency will also increase its target priority.....

 

Blood Angels might be able to do some interesting things by loading cheap assault squads into it for the psychological effect without spending quite so many points... and then use that to help screen their jump infantry and bring in VV via the homer... in a similar way that many use Vindicators as a distraction for their other armor.

 

For C:DA I might suggest a counts-as ravenwing, using allies from C:SM... a biker captain, troops bike squad, and the stormtalon as their alternative to the support 'speeder they would otherwise be able to take. Gives you some AA firepower, another scoring unit, and a decent CC character- while the Core of the army runs things like Deathwing with some actual Ravenwing Landspeeders for supporting Firepower.

 

C:SW is going to have issues though... however, my thoughts for them are more thinking towards just using the anti-aircraft power of an aegis line, and attaching a Wolf Gaurd Pack Leader, fairly naked, to a LF squad simply to split-fire the gun it has. Effectively giving you a LR-lascannon shot or a Quad gun in your LF squad. Expensive, but keeps the squads firepower intact while allowing them to preform AA duties. Taking allies for the Stormtalon from C:SM... I only see on combo that would interest me, wich is a Libby with GoI, a small squad of sniper scouts for objective camping, and the stormtalon.

 

C:BT might also enjoy that combo- the boost of a large group of sniper scouts versus monstrous creatures never hurts... but the libby would need to be switched out for a Chaplain I think.... not that they would mind eh?

 

C:GK can get along with its S:8 TLAC dreads, no worries for them at all. The Stormraven seems redudant to me however, as they already have a huuuuge amount of speed, if they want it. Still a niche unit for them IMHO.

 

Now all that changes if FW rules are allowed... in wich case Imperial Navy flyers are excellent choices, and will likely remain so in the new book. I would certainly consider bringing a Lightning or Thunderbolt in any marine army.... or Helltalons for chaos.

 

It also would allow the use of the Storm Eagle, a game-changing unit for both C:SW and C:BT, and to a lesser extend C:DA. Maxed out assault squads in a fast moving assault vehicle that also loads up significant firepower- equal to 2 whirlwind shots a turn, with options for more!- is amazing for the measly 200ish points it costs. I could see assault armies based around these working in story-book SM fashion, supported by landspeeders for significant anti-tank work and help against further infantry... with the squads of Bloodclaws, WGTDA, etc inside loaded down with hidden power-weapons, mixed to balanced effectiveness against virtually any threat.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Very detailed and useful analysis, Grey Mage B)

 

The Stormraven though? What youre really looking at in that case is a much, much better and cheaper landraider. At 200-230pts you have approximately to slightly less firepower compared to a standard landraider, can move much much faster, still assault out of it, carry squads just as large AND a dreadnaught, and find it more survivable against many weapons. The real weapon is the squad inside though, not the 'Raven itself. Wich is why its going to be a bigger target- because you want to stop it, and explode those inside it while you can- until it offloads its cargo. That urgency will also increase its target priority.....

The only problem I see in using the Stormraven as transport is the fact it has to become a skimmer in order to deploy its cargo. It seems, unless I forgot something, Stormravens cannpt disembark models while zooming. I'll check BA Faq soon but I'm sure GK one does not mention any change for "Shadow Skies". If they could deploy troops during zoom, with the related checks of course, they would be amazing.

 

Now all that changes if FW rules are allowed... in wich case Imperial Navy flyers are excellent choices, and will likely remain so in the new book. I would certainly consider bringing a Lightning or Thunderbolt in any marine army.... or Helltalons for chaos.

During 5th there were a significat "resistance" against FW rules at my local gaming community. Then I started to talk with people and it seem they are less opposed right now. I believe I'll be able to find a fair group of "FW-friendly" players in a couple of weeks. Now FW rules are expressly permitted in local GW campaign, for example. This made several persons to change their mid ;)