Space Wolves from Terra

[Darkseer]

Hey guys.

 

I was just rereading Prospero Burns and suddenly wondered what happened to the original Space Wolves that came from Earth before the Fenrisians were made into Space Marines?

Kormek Dodd (one of the Dreadnoughts) is obviously a Terran. But there doesn't seem to be any mention of the Terran Space Wolves apart from the appearance of this character.

And is the Rune Priest Long Fang a Terran? I can't quite remember. Judging by his age, you'd get the impression that he was.

 

If anyone could shed some light, that would be awesome.

 

Thanks

Adam

[TiguriusX]

I think they all died, probably attributed in part to aging decreasing combat skills.

 

Valerian is the loremaster and can probably give citations but I remember the terran wolf in prospero burns suffering from signs of old age. Taking a wild guess but that could have been our imperfection before Russ was found and pure wolves of fenris were used.

[space wolf]

Depends. If they were 1st Gen. Marines. (IE Thunderers) Then they probably eventually just died through the years. You have to remember with all of the legions, those first gen marines, were considered to be equal in status to the later, what we know as "real astartes" marines. So in the fluff, they may not attribute who was slightly more advanced then others, because it didn't matter to them. As long as the job got done, that's all that mattered. How do you think Luther of the Dark Angels got to be so respected. There was no way he would have been able to be implanted with Gene Seed, he was far too old.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Depends. If they were 1st Gen. Marines. (IE Thunderers) Then they probably eventually just died through the years. You have to remember with all of the legions, those first gen marines, were considered to be equal in status to the later, what we know as "real astartes" marines. So in the fluff, they may not attribute who was slightly more advanced then others, because it didn't matter to them. As long as the job got done, that's all that mattered. How do you think Luther of the Dark Angels got to be so respected. There was no way he would have been able to be implanted with Gene Seed, he was far too old.

 

I love when you make guest appearances. :P

[Darkseer]

Depends. If they were 1st Gen. Marines. (IE Thunderers) Then they probably eventually just died through the years. You have to remember with all of the legions, those first gen marines, were considered to be equal in status to the later, what we know as "real astartes" marines. So in the fluff, they may not attribute who was slightly more advanced then others, because it didn't matter to them. As long as the job got done, that's all that mattered. How do you think Luther of the Dark Angels got to be so respected. There was no way he would have been able to be implanted with Gene Seed, he was far too old.

 

The Space Marine legions were originally all from Terra. It was only once they found their Primarchs that they started recruiting from their Primarch's world/s.

For example, Khârn of the World Eaters and Garro of the Death Guard were both Space Marines from Terra. This did not make them Thunder Warriors.

You're getting confused between the proto-astartes and the adeptus-astartes.

 

But maybe they did just die of old age? Space Wolves do seem to age compared to the other legions.

[Captain Rolunde]

Also, for what it is worth Garro does mention how his physical age is less in comparison to the amount of time that has passed relative to it.

 

Periods of Cryo-sleep and Warp Travel time differential can make for some physically "young" Astartes despite the passage of many more years having passed them by.

 

So we can potentially see some Terrans lasting into their "prime" longer than others.

 

Also Iaction Qruze was a Terran and it seemed like he was the oldest living Luna Wolf and despite being pretty robust by human standards had lost a lot of his edge by the measure of an Astartes. He was very much showing the signs of his age.

 

So time could indeed take its toll on the Terrans, especially if they were spending most of their time active in "real time".

 

It's possible Garro and Qruze could have the same Imperial Calendar "Date of Birth", but their virtual ages were considerably different.

[Grimtooth]

Long Fang in Prospero Burns was indeed from Terra and he mentions how little remain within the Legion. With a combination of age combat, and the discovery of Russ on Fenris; Terran Wolves were probably replaced almost entirely by the time Prospero Burns occured.

[Toasterfree]

and in essence the wolf blade could be considered from terra, even though they are full wolves on reassignement.

[space wolf]

Depends. If they were 1st Gen. Marines. (IE Thunderers) Then they probably eventually just died through the years. You have to remember with all of the legions, those first gen marines, were considered to be equal in status to the later, what we know as "real astartes" marines. So in the fluff, they may not attribute who was slightly more advanced then others, because it didn't matter to them. As long as the job got done, that's all that mattered. How do you think Luther of the Dark Angels got to be so respected. There was no way he would have been able to be implanted with Gene Seed, he was far too old.

 

The Space Marine legions were originally all from Terra. It was only once they found their Primarchs that they started recruiting from their Primarch's world/s.

For example, Khârn of the World Eaters and Garro of the Death Guard were both Space Marines from Terra. This did not make them Thunder Warriors.

You're getting confused between the proto-astartes and the adeptus-astartes.

 

But maybe they did just die of old age? Space Wolves do seem to age compared to the other legions.

 

No I am not. I understand what you mean, but consider this: Luther of DA infamy was well passed the age he would have needed to be to be a "true" astartes. I don't remember where it is mentioned, but its said that they made exceptions like this for exceptional people in the primarch's service. They did as much as they could do and compensated with bionics. That did not make them thunder warriors, but it also did not make the true astartes. Thus they would age much more rapidly. That being said, I've realized that Luther wasn't from terra at all anyway, so really I'm just arguing a moot point. See what happens when you make me chase my tail? ;)

[Darkseer]

Yes, because in The Wolf At The Door, Bullveye says that Russ's finest warriors all insisted that they should be made into Space Marines.

The Emperor said they would all die in the process, but they insisted anyway.

1 in 5 survived the process, they formed the 13th Company and were known as the 'grey beards' because of their age.

However, this story was written before Prospero Burns, so it has some large differences compared to Dan Abnett's Space Wolves.

[Valerian]

Yes, because in The Wolf At The Door, Bullveye says that Russ's finest warriors all insisted that they should be made into Space Marines.

The Emperor said they would all die in the process, but they insisted anyway.

1 in 5 survived the process, they formed the 13th Company and were known as the 'grey beards' because of their age.

However, this story was written before Prospero Burns, so it has some large differences compared to Dan Abnett's Space Wolves.

 

Additionally, that doesn't jive with what the Studio has written about the 13th Company, either.

 

Valerian

[Loki-LaughingDeath]

There is one thing to remember about the Space Marines. The first creations were the Primarchs after they were lost to the warp, the Allfather decided to make the legions that would serve his sons and conquered Terra then started the Crusade. Part of the problem is the timeline on the recovery of the Primarchs and the gifting of their legions is unclear, but it was after earth was more or less firmly under the Allfather's command. If you figure that there were limited numbers originally generated until contact was made, not to mention the preferred fighting styles, roles and time, the surviving Terran marines would be a hardcore group of veterans with not a lot of survivors.

 

I was hoping that the Black Library would clear up this confusion but it has only added to the mystique of the founding.

[King Willy]

It seems that Astartes don't physically age, the various changes can be attributed to time dialaltion due to FTL travel, so ages a all over the place but the way it seems is that as they grow older they more get tired of fighting or not, some loss there edge like Qruze due more to changing times and just weariness but they still seem to be as capable as any other if they harden up, like Garro and Khârn.

 

As for Terrans, prob gone for the Wolves, even before Russ they would have been more reckless, the Gene-Seed must effect the psycology of the person as they change. So Attrition among the wolves would probably be higher then in other chapters, eventually there would only be the dreads to claim terra as a birthplace.

[Logan230]

It makes you wonder what the Legion was like when they were just the VI Legion Astartes. World Eaters were the War Hounds, Death Guard were Dusk Raiders; I wonder if they will ever hint at what we were like before Fenris. I also believe that the Legions were each recruited from different regions of Terra. References in The Thousand Sons points in that direction when Ahriman states that he and his brother were from the Nordafrik conclaves, also considering the names legionaries had.

 

On a side note, think of the amount of recruits that the AllFather and early Legion Masters would have gone through to build the legions, even if they had higher acceptance rates than in the current Imperium, they must have taken in entire generations to build the legions. With the chaff either going to the Imperial Army, or if they are into the implantation cycle, be too deformed to be of use to anybody. Even on a hive world of Terra's class, after all the wars and the Unification War, I am kinda surprised he was able to build the army he did.

[frostclaw222]

They age, but they're just functionally immortal, and do not lose combat effectiveness. To be fair, that's as far as they know, per what Long Fang says. They just don't lose effectiveness in combat. Witness Long Fang in Prospero Burns. He seems old and tottery in peaceful moments, then explodes into action. They just become less able without the chem and bio-engineered boosts their altered physiology provide. Half-Heard is treated much the same way in the early Heresy novels.

 

Let's also bear in mind that it's suggested at least one of the two mystery legions fell to the Wolves to dispense with. Ergo, if this was early on in the life of the VI, then the majority of the troops would have been Terran, and those numbers would have been replaced by Fenrisians. So, destroying a brother legion would severely reduce the number of line Terran Wolves quite neatly.

 

For the record, during the Heresy era, there are three types of astartes running about: proto-astartes, the Thunder Warriors; line astartes (those made on Terra or the Legions' various recruitment planets), and the quasi-astartes the Emperor sometimes rendered due to the request of the primarch, like Luther, like the 13th Grey/Longbeards described in the short story. All but a few Thunder Warriors are dead and gone by the time the Heresy comes to light. Kor Phaeron and Luther probably represent the best of the rest of the quasi-astartes at that time, as well.

 

Obviously, I'm counting Custodes and Primarchs (and the Grey Knights) as separate development threads, though since the primarchs provide the geneseed, I suppose you could count them as pre-uber-astartes, but I prefer to keep them wholly separate for tidiness's sake.

 

As for any conflict with the 13th as laid out in the short story and in later works like Prospero, it is entirely likely that the 13th refered to by Bulvye (sp?) in the short story was pre-Mystery Legion smackdown, and could be gone. Or could have been killed off sometime thereafter, but before Prospero, and the 13th reconstituted under the same banner. Whole companies could have died before the Heresy, and it would have been looked at as terrible, but sustainable losses, since the geneseed implantation protocols were so much more efficient and reliable than they are in M41-42. Numbers would have been much easier to replenish.

 

/fluff nazi and canon conflict reconciliation mode

[Captain Rolunde]

/snip/

...As for any conflict with the 13th as laid out in the short story and in later works like Prospero, it is entirely likely that the 13th refered to by Bulvye (sp?) in the short story was pre-Mystery Legion smackdown, and could be gone. Or could have been killed off sometime thereafter, but before Prospero, and the 13th reconstituted under the same banner. Whole companies could have died before the Heresy, and it would have been looked at as terrible, but sustainable losses, since the geneseed implantation protocols were so much more efficient and reliable than they are in M41-42. Numbers would have been much easier to replenish.

 

Aren't the 13th pretty much a "catch all" for lost, fallen and/or crusading Companies?

 

If so I would think that this gives a lot of leeway on cannon use and potential conflicts.

[Emperors Immortals]

Also the closer to Terra you originated in the first days of the crusade, the less stasis due to warp travel you would experience. ie being shunted to the front would necessitate an extended period of warp travel, not so for astartes fighting near Sol.

 

if that helps :)

[Valerian]

/snip/

...As for any conflict with the 13th as laid out in the short story and in later works like Prospero, it is entirely likely that the 13th refered to by Bulvye (sp?) in the short story was pre-Mystery Legion smackdown, and could be gone. Or could have been killed off sometime thereafter, but before Prospero, and the 13th reconstituted under the same banner. Whole companies could have died before the Heresy, and it would have been looked at as terrible, but sustainable losses, since the geneseed implantation protocols were so much more efficient and reliable than they are in M41-42. Numbers would have been much easier to replenish.

 

Aren't the 13th pretty much a "catch all" for lost, fallen and/or crusading Companies?

 

If so I would think that this gives a lot of leeway on cannon use and potential conflicts.

 

Sort of. There's The 13th Company, lead by Jorin Bloodfang that was lost either a) pursuing the Thousand Sons after Prospero, or b) pursuing Abaddon after the Scouring. Then there's the 13th Company as represented by the Annulus, which includes the original 13th, but now also represents all Great Companies that have been lost, destroyed, or recounted oaths of fealty.

 

V

[Grimtooth]

They age, but they're just functionally immortal, and do not lose combat effectiveness. To be fair, that's as far as they know, per what Long Fang says. They just don't lose effectiveness in combat. Witness Long Fang in Prospero Burns. He seems old and tottery in peaceful moments, then explodes into action. They just become less able without the chem and bio-engineered boosts their altered physiology provide. Half-Heard is treated much the same way in the early Heresy novels.

 

Let's also bear in mind that it's suggested at least one of the two mystery legions fell to the Wolves to dispense with. Ergo, if this was early on in the life of the VI, then the majority of the troops would have been Terran, and those numbers would have been replaced by Fenrisians. So, destroying a brother legion would severely reduce the number of line Terran Wolves quite neatly.

 

For the record, during the Heresy era, there are three types of astartes running about: proto-astartes, the Thunder Warriors; line astartes (those made on Terra or the Legions' various recruitment planets), and the quasi-astartes the Emperor sometimes rendered due to the request of the primarch, like Luther, like the 13th Grey/Longbeards described in the short story. All but a few Thunder Warriors are dead and gone by the time the Heresy comes to light. Kor Phaeron and Luther probably represent the best of the rest of the quasi-astartes at that time, as well.

 

Obviously, I'm counting Custodes and Primarchs (and the Grey Knights) as separate development threads, though since the primarchs provide the geneseed, I suppose you could count them as pre-uber-astartes, but I prefer to keep them wholly separate for tidiness's sake.

 

As for any conflict with the 13th as laid out in the short story and in later works like Prospero, it is entirely likely that the 13th refered to by Bulvye (sp?) in the short story was pre-Mystery Legion smackdown, and could be gone. Or could have been killed off sometime thereafter, but before Prospero, and the 13th reconstituted under the same banner. Whole companies could have died before the Heresy, and it would have been looked at as terrible, but sustainable losses, since the geneseed implantation protocols were so much more efficient and reliable than they are in M41-42. Numbers would have been much easier to replenish.

 

/fluff nazi and canon conflict reconciliation mode

 

The 13th Co as represented in Wolf at the Door that you refer to as quasi-Astartes were full blown Astartes. They were nothing like Luther.

[frostclaw222]

See, I didn't think there were any in there, but someone's remark above led me to believe I'd overlooked something. Guess it's time to reread that story. Regardless, only one in five of Russ's original thegns (or whatever he called the warrior chiefs in his service) became quasi-astartes, from what the fluff suggests.

 

And wasn't it Cormec Dodd, not Kormek? Did somebody drag their orkish into our dreadnought?

[Grimtooth]

See, I didn't think there were any in there, but someone's remark above led me to believe I'd overlooked something. Guess it's time to reread that story. Regardless, only one in five of Russ's original thegns (or whatever he called the warrior chiefs in his service) became quasi-astartes, from what the fluff suggests.

 

And wasn't it Cormec Dodd, not Kormek? Did somebody drag their orkish into our dreadnought?

 

They were NOT quasi-Astartes.

 

When Russ reunited with the Emperor, all of his warriors that had fought for him for years insisted on being turned in Space Marines despite the Emperor telling them would die from the process. Hundreds of them did die, but the fluff says, "almost two score" survived the process.

 

They were not given some of the organs and then augmented by bionics like Luther or Phaeron, they were full fledged Space Marines, just made at a much older age then normal.

[Quillen]

Ramses is sorta right. They were Space Marines but it was done a little different because of their age and they had a really high failure rate. That is one of my favorite short stories. It's how imagined them working. Human with compasion but tempered by their oaths of fealty and willing to do the Emperor's will. You're with us or against us. There is no middle ground. Great short story.

[Grimtooth]

Ramses is sorta right. They were Space Marines but it was done a little different because of their age and they had a really high failure rate. That is one of my favorite short stories. It's how imagined them working. Human with compasion but tempered by their oaths of fealty and willing to do the Emperor's will. You're with us or against us. There is no middle ground. Great short story.

 

Wolf at the Door highlights the dual nature of the VI Legion when it comes to humanity. Killing xenos is one thing, but it was all about blood and sacrifice in the belief that they could bring that planet into the Imperium.

[hmk17]

They age, but they're just functionally immortal, and do not lose combat effectiveness. To be fair, that's as far as they know, per what Long Fang says. They just don't lose effectiveness in combat. Witness Long Fang in Prospero Burns. He seems old and tottery in peaceful moments, then explodes into action. They just become less able without the chem and bio-engineered boosts their altered physiology provide. Half-Heard is treated much the same way in the early Heresy novels.

 

Let's also bear in mind that it's suggested at least one of the two mystery legions fell to the Wolves to dispense with. Ergo, if this was early on in the life of the VI, then the majority of the troops would have been Terran, and those numbers would have been replaced by Fenrisians. So, destroying a brother legion would severely reduce the number of line Terran Wolves quite neatly.

 

For the record, during the Heresy era, there are three types of astartes running about: proto-astartes, the Thunder Warriors; line astartes (those made on Terra or the Legions' various recruitment planets), and the quasi-astartes the Emperor sometimes rendered due to the request of the primarch, like Luther, like the 13th Grey/Longbeards described in the short story. All but a few Thunder Warriors are dead and gone by the time the Heresy comes to light. Kor Phaeron and Luther probably represent the best of the rest of the quasi-astartes at that time, as well.

 

Obviously, I'm counting Custodes and Primarchs (and the Grey Knights) as separate development threads, though since the primarchs provide the geneseed, I suppose you could count them as pre-uber-astartes, but I prefer to keep them wholly separate for tidiness's sake.

 

As for any conflict with the 13th as laid out in the short story and in later works like Prospero, it is entirely likely that the 13th refered to by Bulvye (sp?) in the short story was pre-Mystery Legion smackdown, and could be gone. Or could have been killed off sometime thereafter, but before Prospero, and the 13th reconstituted under the same banner. Whole companies could have died before the Heresy, and it would have been looked at as terrible, but sustainable losses, since the geneseed implantation protocols were so much more efficient and reliable than they are in M41-42. Numbers would have been much easier to replenish.

 

/fluff nazi and canon conflict reconciliation mode

 

There's actually a difference in what the Dark Angel's books describe and Wolf at the Door. Luther is quasi-astartes as it was the safe option for those past prime, who would otherwise have died during the full process. It rendered them nearly identical in several areas while bringing their expertise into the fold.

 

Wolf at the Door specifically states the 13th were full Astartes, having refused to settle for anything less in following Russ. As a result most of them died during the process, the survivors were rounded into the 13th.