Pile in clarifications

[Gideon999]

Hey all!

 

I think I have this right but just to clarify :

 

A model in an assault makes its pile in move at its Init value. Is this in lieu of attacking or does that model pile in AND get its attack once it is finished its pile in move?

 

Thanks!

[Morticon]

Charge -> then pile in at init -> and then attack at that init it just piled in at!

[Morollan]

Charge -> then pile in at init -> and then attack at that init it just piled in at!

 

Didn't we decide that you actually pile in on your normal Initiative but attack at whatever your modified Initiative is? So a MEQ armed with a fist piles in at I4 but attacks at I1.

[Seahawk]

Yep! Or a MEQ that goes over Difficult Terrain suffers the same.

[Morticon]

Charge -> then pile in at init -> and then attack at that init it just piled in at!

 

Didn't we decide that you actually pile in on your normal Initiative but attack at whatever your modified Initiative is? So a MEQ armed with a fist piles in at I4 but attacks at I1.

 

Yeh, sorry the above example is assuming you dont have a special weapon!

[Gideon999]

Ok so pile in and attack both then. Nice.

 

Seems odd though that if you attack at I1 that your pile in would still happen at I4 for example. Wouldnt that cause you to fall out of combat due to causalties caused after your pile in move but before your attack step?

[Seahawk]

Possibly, though it's unlikely. That's just the way they decided to write it!

[dizzy-xc]

Im confused. WHEN does the 'attacking at Initiative' happen? After pile in? Obviously with the exception of an uwieldy weapon or having moved thru cover... but what if you have a bonus to your weapon's initiative like a GK Halberd at +2? Do you pile in at I4 and then strike at I6? Or has the I6 strike already over now that peeps are piling in at I4 and then that marine gets to attack nothing?

[Seahawk]

Hmm, good one.

 

Their I is normal...but they strike blows at I+2.

 

Since the wording doesn't work with the new system...<heegergergurk> <system crash>

 

If I was me though, I'd play it that they attack at I+2 and then pile in at their normal I value, so backwards to normal, but hey that's what happens when they let MW write wacky rules...

[JamesI]

I'm hoping a FAQ changes this to pile in at the initiative you attack at, would make things like halberds make more sense.

[Morollan]

I'm hoping a FAQ changes this to pile in at the initiative you attack at, would make things like halberds make more sense.

 

Yeah, it was brought up in another thread and I must admit to giggling at the thought of all these GK's with their shiny halberds standing around doing nothing because their lovely weapons actually prevent them from fighting :)

 

As an aside, anyone else think it's wierd that halberds are normally treated as axes and are therefore unwieldy (I1)but in the hands of a Grey Knight they are suddenly I6?

[dswanick]

I'm hoping a FAQ changes this to pile in at the initiative you attack at, would make things like halberds make more sense.

 

Yeah, it was brought up in another thread and I must admit to giggling at the thought of all these GK's with their shiny halberds standing around doing nothing because their lovely weapons actually prevent them from fighting :unsure:

 

As an aside, anyone else think it's wierd that halberds are normally treated as axes and are therefore unwieldy (I1)but in the hands of a Grey Knight they are suddenly I6?

"Do not underestimeate the power of the fo... er Warp, yeah I meant Warp. I wasn't about to say Force." *whistles*

[MalachiOfRuss]

I'm fairly sure the RAI are that the Pile-In happens at whatever Initiative Step they are "fighting at." I know it doesn't explicitly say that, but it also doesn't explicitly say that they Pile In at their unmodified Initiative either. I'm inferring RAI because twice in the overall Fight Sub-phase section it mentions situations where models fight at Initiative different than their "normal" one (under Initiative Steps and the example in the top right of p. 23).

 

I know it doesn't explicitly say one way or another, and the wording is imprecise, but GW has a history of slightly sloppy wording and one can usually infer what they really meant.

[dswanick]

but it also doesn't explicitly say that they Pile In at their unmodified Initiative either.

That's because noone is saying Pile In haoppens at a model's unmodified Initiative. A model suffering from a Concussive wound would Pile In when the Initiative step equals their current, modified Initiative of 1 (which could result in a model Piling In twice in a Fight Subphase). But neither does it say that a model Piles In at the Initiative step at which they fight despite their current Initiative.

"any model whose Initiative is equal to the value of the current Initiative step,", BRB, Pg.23

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

A GK is I4, but strikes blows at I6 when wielding a halberd. This means that they get to swing at I6, but are only I6 for that one purpose. They Pile In at I4, and use I4 when they make a Sweeping Advance. Same with Unwieldly and Concussive. A Space Marine sergeant with a power fist Piles In at I4, and Sweeping Advances at I4, but strikes at I1.

 

Note the wording on the rules. "...the wielder of a Nemesis halberd strikes at +2 Initiative." They've got +2 I for the purpose of attacks, but not for other effects.

[Gentlemanloser]

I've had a text form my mate (with the rulebook) who's mentioned that Assault Grandes (bar Eldar Plasma ones) no longer work, due to a wording change.

 

Is this correct?

 

Is this like Initiative/Unwieldy all over again, where yu can be I10 but attack at I1?

 

:/

 

How do Assault Grenades effect pile in moves?

 

Or has his misread something?

[dswanick]

I've had a text form my mate (with the rulebook) who's mentioned that Assault Grandes (bar Eldar Plasma ones) no longer work, due to a wording change.

 

Is this correct?

 

Is this like Initiative/Unwieldy all over again, where yu can be I10 but attack at I1?

 

:/

 

How do Assault Grenades effect pile in moves?

 

Or has his misread something?

"Models equipped with Assault Grenades don't suffer the penalty to their Initiative for charging enemies through cover, but fight at their normal Initiative in the ensuing combat.", BRB, Pg.61

"if at least one model in the charging unit moved through Difficult Terrain as part of its charge move, all of the models must attack at Initiaitve step 1, regardless of other Initiative modifiers.", BRB, Pg.22.

Well, the Difficult Terrain rule is pretty boilerplate. The Assault Grenade rule comes across as pretty clear - the only "flaw" I see is "but fight at their normal Initiative in" instead of "but fight at their normal Initiative step in". Probably a minor error, but maybe not.

[Gentlemanloser]

Aye, got the copy of the rulebook tonight, and saw that.

 

So Frags do nothing to change the Intiative Step 1 penalty that DT imposes. Yet Plasma do.

 

/sigh

[dswanick]

I've had a text form my mate (with the rulebook) who's mentioned that Assault Grandes (bar Eldar Plasma ones) no longer work, due to a wording change.

 

Is this correct?

 

Is this like Initiative/Unwieldy all over again, where yu can be I10 but attack at I1?

 

:/

 

How do Assault Grenades effect pile in moves?

 

Or has his misread something?

"Models equipped with Assault Grenades don't suffer the penalty to their Initiative for charging enemies through cover, but fight at their normal Initiative in the ensuing combat.", BRB, Pg.61

"if at least one model in the charging unit moved through Difficult Terrain as part of its charge move, all of the models must attack at Initiaitve step 1, regardless of other Initiative modifiers.", BRB, Pg.22.

Well, the Difficult Terrain rule is pretty boilerplate. The Assault Grenade rule comes across as pretty clear - the only "flaw" I see is "but fight at their normal Initiative in" instead of "but fight at their normal Initiative step in". Probably a minor error, but maybe not.

Aye, got the copy of the rulebook tonight, and saw that.

 

So Frags do nothing to change the Intiative Step 1 penalty that DT imposes. Yet Plasma do.

 

/sigh

I disagree - "So Frags do nothing to change the Intiative Step 1 penalty that DT imposes"

"Models equipped with Assault Grenades don't suffer the penalty ".

You, yourself, called it a penalty - which is what it is. It doesn't say "Models equipped with Assault Grenades don't suffer the modifier ".

So while the wording isn't utterly precise - it is still clear. Frag grenades negate the penalty of striking at Initiative step 1 for a unit with models which moved through Difficult terrain.

[Gentlemanloser]

Take a Strike Squad with Frags and quickening.

 

Thier normal Initiative is 10 (due to Quickening).

 

They charge through DT. This should somehow effect thier Initiative;

 

don't suffer the penalty to their Initiative

 

What penalty that is, I donno. I'm assuming the DT rules should make the units Initiative 1, *as well as* making them attack at 1.

 

So we don't get a Pile in at I10 (due to Quickening) but attack at I Step 1.

 

Sadly the DT rule doesn't do anything to a units Initiative. It only effects steps;

 

all of the models must attack at Initiaitve step 1

 

So, ignoreing Frags, the Strike would charge, then pile in at 10, but attack at 1.

 

So now, Frags come into play.

 

but fight at their normal Initiative

 

Which is Iniative Step 1, due to DT. Even though they are Iniative 10, and pile in at I10.

 

On the other hand, if they had plasma;

 

but fight at their normal Initiative step

 

They would pile in at I10, and attack at I10.

 

I'm guessing it's a typo that 'step' was left off the Assault Grenades rule, but it does effect thier use.

[dswanick]

I'm guessing it's a typo that 'step' was left off the Assault Grenades rule, but it does effect thier use.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread - this is my conclusion.

[dizzy-xc]

Ok, so what is the conclusion here if indeed 'step' was left out of the wording of that sentence? What purpose do frag grenades now have?

[puffin]

I'm beginning to wonder if people are willfully misreading the rules regarding Initiative Steps. It is quite clear from taking the rules between page 22 and 26 as a single entity that Initiative, for the purposes of the Fight sub-step - is congruous with Initiative Step. There is no Piling In at one step then fighting at another - you are either in a step (and therefore MUST FIGHT) or you are not in that step (and do nothing at all). See the other thread (why do we have two threads discussing the same thing anyway?)

[dizzy-xc]

As we mostly agree, puffin on the other thread, there is a distinction here that unweildy weapons modify the step and not your initiative, as pointed out by Seahawk, and a GK halberd modifies the Initiative and not the step. So with a GK marine and halberd, you would pile in and strike at I6, but a Marine with Power Axe would pile in at I4 and strike at I1.

 

You are saying that it is all one and the same, that said Marine with axe piles in and strikes at 1.

 

I get it, but am not sold on it. Seahawks post had some compelling points.

[puffin]

Again, the Unwieldy rule specifically states: "you're in Initiative Step 1". Why people are claiming you should also be in Initiative Step 4 (but only for the first bit, ignore the part about you MUST fight) is beyond me.