Close Range TEQ Hunting

[rpnightsend]

With the power weapon change in 6th, it seems like we can no longer just rely on any close combat unit to handle TEQ's. While range is always effective, I'd like to open a discussion of what units are best for beating them at close range.

I think there are 4 units that stand out for their ability to handle TEQ's at close range: Tactical Terminators, Hammernators, Legion of the Damned, and Honor Guard, so here's my analysis (I assume each squad has 5 members and has purchased no upgrades):

 

Tactical Terminators

Close Combat: Come stock with a power fist, perfect for punching through 2+ saves and denying Deathwing and Paladin their FNP. 2 attacks base matches everyone else on here, so nothing special here.

Shooting: 10 storm bolter shots is nothing to scoff at, and have a decent chance of taking one of those other TEQ's off the board. Throw in the fact they can overwatch and tactical terminators become a threat to a countercharging unit too.

Survivability: 2+ and 5++ ensures that only fists, hammers, and axes are punching through their armor in CC and the 5++ can serve to mitigate wounds caused by those two.

Mobility: Easily the most mobile unit here, they can deep strike, footslog, or ride in a land raider.

Options: For a handful of points you can give one guy a chainfist to make your opponent think twice about blocking you with a vehicle, and an assault cannon adds more firepower. Heavy flamers and CML's probably arent the best choice unless you're sure you're deepstriking/footslogging them.

Characters: Pretty much any character can take TDA, and none would be a bad choice to add to the squad.

 

Hammernators

Close Combat: Same number of attacks as tactical terminators, same S, same I, and same AP. Concussive won't matter against TEQ's

Shooting: None, decreasing their flexibility a bit

Survivability: The best unit here in terms of saves. a 2+ and 3++ will ensure these guys can take a beating

Mobility: Without shooting, footslogging them makes them less likely to get right in and start smashing faces, althought they're survivable enough to do it if they want.

Options: Switiching the lightning claws, but you don't want that if you're TEQ smashing

Characters: Like tactical terminators, they can benefit from almost any character joining them, with the addition of having Vulkan on the field boosting their combat ability

 

Legion of the Damned

Close Combat: Compared to the other options, Legion are the weakest unit in CC. Their consolation prize is the +1 WS on their sergeant and his ability to have 2 CCWs for an extra attack.

Shooting: Potentially the best shooting unit here, they have a plethora of options one of the best is the ability to rapid fire and still assault. Unlike tactical terminators, they cannot overwatch though (Slow and Purposeful disallows it).

Survivability: Against AP 2 weapons their 3++ makes them as survivable as Hammernators. Unfortunately, all 3 of the other choices have a 2+ base, making the LotD the most likely to be torrented to death.

Mobility: They must deep strike, but with rerolls on the scatter theyre a bit better at getting just where you want them. Considering their ability to rapid fire and assault, this can be ideal for putting them (hopefully) just out of range of a TEQ, shooting, and then charging the following turn.

Options: More than any other unit here, and a squad of 5 is cheaper without upgrades than the other choices. Their weapons are a bit expensive, but combined with their highly accurate deep strike and relentless they can be an excellent shooting unit. A power axe is a good idea for the sergeant.

Characters: None, as IC's cannot join them until they've hit the board, but if you didn't want to give them an IC in the first place it doesnt matter much.

 

Honor Guard

Close Combat: More attack than the other options, and with power axes they still ignore a 2+ armor, but they wont be wounding T4 on a 2+ or ignoring FNP.

Shooting: They have pistols for a quick round of shooting before you assault, but its not anything like Tactical Terminators or LotD shooting.

Survivability: No Invuln. Ouch. If your goal is to drown your opponent in attacks you can give them all power mauls and hopefully mitigate this problem, but if you want to ensure you're punching through that 2+ and use an axe, you're gonna take some power fist hits most of the time.

Mobility: Only unit here that can't deep strike, and without an invuln they'll be a prime target for AP2 shooting, so a transport is kinda a must. Worse still, with new transport rules, a land raider may be a must for you.

Options: giving the champion a thunder hammer or relic blade isnt a horrible choice, and the banner is a must have, as volume of attacks is their advantage over everyone else here.

Character: No need to worry about challenges, thanks to the champion, and a Librarian with force dome in the squad could mitigate that lack of an invuln. A chaplain would also help you with that scary number of attacks you have, especially if you went with a maul instead of axes. Additionally, they unfortunately require purchasing a Chapter Master elsewhere in the list, which may or not be a problem depending on your list.

 

What are your thoughts guys?

[Bannus]

Assault Terminators or Vanguard would be my first options. The 3+ save on the Vanguard isn't going to make much of a difference against TEQ's, but you can give one or two models (selectively) a storm shield to direct some attacks against to reduce your own casualties in the melee. However, because all the SM units that can engage TEQ's effectively are expensive and are likely to suffer as much as they can dish out, Space Marines are better off shooting at TEQ's than engaging in close combat with them.

[thade]

However, because all the SM units that can engage TEQ's effectively are expensive and are likely to suffer as much as they can dish out, Space Marines are better off shooting at TEQ's than engaging in close combat with them.

This.

 

Kitting Vanguard out to engage Terminators (or anything with a 2+, let alone the 5++) in CC makes them expensive and highly specialized. You'd need many of them with storm shields (because, frankly, one or two with shields will buckle under a wave of Hammer attacks).

 

When it comes to TEQ melee, fight fire with fire (i.e. TEQ). Otherwise, just stay at range and shoot the crap out of them.

[rpnightsend]

When it comes to TEQ melee, fight fire with fire (i.e. TEQ). Otherwise, just stay at range and shoot the crap out of them.

That would be exactly why i opened this discussion...

[thade]

I mean, yes. :) Did you expect/hope for some of us to have magic means of taking them out without using TEQ or shooting?

 

Here is a Vanguard load-out, off the cuff, that I do not recommend:

 

5 storm shields, one power axe (on the sergent...free power weapon), five guys total.

 

Use them as an escort to some insane combat-kitted Captain and/or Chaplain. Give the Captain a Power Axe and a power sword, so he can either exploit his initiative or punch through 2+ armor at need. Use the storm shield escort to soak whatever armor-ignoring attacks might threaten the captain (of course they can't help if he's in a challenge, but 4++ is not too shabby anyway). If you can, use the Vanguard sergent to soak challenges so the Captain can work the unit.

 

There you have a 3+ armor save crew kitted to engage 2+. I still think shooting the crap out of the terminators is better...but this idea seems fun, and I do in fact have the models built to try it (except the captain). Well, I have a Captain that's dual-wielding THs. That'll work for this experiment.

[Feste]

If you're talking close-range, rather than exclusively melee, what about something with lots of plasma. It always goes down nicely.

 

Another option would be something like a Dreadnought, preferably an Ironclad. It's AP2 attacks go at initiative, so it has the drop on them, and with hull points now there's no guarantee they'll drop it quick enough.

[thade]

I really like Dreads, I do, but I'm worried they've taken a bit of a hit in this edition; as it was they would go down pretty fast to anti-tank fire early on; even more so now. Though now we have some effective delivery systems for them (codecies with the luck enough to have a Storm Raven) to get them into melee quick.

[BassWave]

Well what do you mean by close range? Rapid fire range? Close combat fighting?

 

Since the change to power weapon rules, getting in an assault with any breed of terminators is a bad idea. I suggest either a plasma command squad, or a vindicator. My fondest memory in game is when I nearly wiped out a 5 man terminator squad with one demolisher round :P

[ak-73]

Plasma-fest Sternguards, best deployed in layered combat squads so that the TEQs ideally have to eat another round of shooting between combats. Oh - and Opportunity fire.

 

Alex

[Feste]

Maybe, but before the enemy could stun-lock Rhinos and transport and then focus on the Dreads. Now, that's not so much of an option. He can kill the Dreads at range sure, but that might mean there's a nasty present on his doorstep, with the new improved flamers.

 

Another option for dealing with Termies is sheer volume of firepower. Ork Burnaboyz love TDA! It roasts up good. Sternguard with combi-flamers could do a decent, if expensive, approximation. And as they're a bit more useful than your standard marine in melee, they might even take a couple down in close-combat.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Ironclad Dreadnoughts have only gotten better in this edition (I'll explain in a moment), and I think they have a niche in countering Terminators. Seriously, hear me out.

 

What was good for ICDs in 5th:

 

1.) AV13 was difficult for S8 to penetrate.

2.) Defensive Grenades reduced charging attack numbers.

3.) Free extra armor prevented the ICD from losing attacks due to Stunned results.

4.) The only Terminator weapons that could consistently harm it were I1, and it's I4.

5.) S10 with no save removed FNP and could ID almost everything that could be ID'd.

6.) The ICD's hammer gives +1 on the vehicle chart (not relevant for Termies, but bears mentioning I think).

7.) Move Through Cover for good positioning.

 

These are all still true, but here's what makes it better in 6th:

 

1.) Defensive Grenades now grants Stealth within 8" of the firer. Yes it does, page 62. It's only a 6+ in the open, but its a save against melta, plasma, asscans, and CMLs (all TDA-borne weapons), and it links with the smoke launchers to give a 4+.

2.) The loss of anti-vehicular effects on Thunder Hammers; Concussive only affects models that "suffers one or more unsaved Wounds, (page 35)" so it's always I4 against I1 fists and hammers.

3.) Move Through Cover grants immunity to Dangerous Terrain Tests now, which is good for staying in cover to protect against pre-charge melta, etc, and if you're close enough the Defensive Grenades stack with this (so an ICD in a ruin being targeted within 8" -- ie, within 2d6 range of a combi-melta -- gets a 3+ save against it).

4.) Overwatching with a melta gun and heavy flamer (or two heavy flamers, if you play that way). Free hits on a small number of charging models is never a bad thing.

5.) A single Hammer of Wrath hit at S6, so there's a wound on a 2+ as well.

 

So most of these are defensive bonuses, which helps to ensure that the ICD survives combat. It didn't get any giant positives in terms of damage outpout on Terminators, but short of ace dice rolling, you should get a couple of Terminators before they're able to strike back (HoW, OW, and regular attacks all go before fists & hammers).

 

That being said, I still think quad-plasma command squad with a Null Zone Librarian is still the best for killing off Terminators.

[LoreDraconis]

Nice points! I hadnt even thought about the defensive grenades change. Getting a save vs a halfrage plasma shot is great.

 

5.) A single Hammer of Wrath hit at S6, so there's a wound on a 2+ as well.

 

 

I thought they got this too, but someone corrected me and when i went back to look, i couldnt find any reference in the rulebook ;) Are you seeing something I'm not? I would love for them to get another hit in.

[Koremu]

<obligatory>Vindicator</obligatory>

 

Failing that, Plasma. Or Melta.

 

Failing all of the above, Stern Guard wounding on a 2+.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Nice points! I hadnt even thought about the defensive grenades change. Getting a save vs a halfrage plasma shot is great.

 

5.) A single Hammer of Wrath hit at S6, so there's a wound on a 2+ as well.

 

 

I thought they got this too, but someone corrected me and when i went back to look, i couldnt find any reference in the rulebook :P Are you seeing something I'm not? I would love for them to get another hit in.

 

Nope, I can't find it either, though I'm pretty sure it was mentioned in the WD preview article I thought...

[Laughingdagger]

Ten man vanguard unit, 20 plasma pistols, one purpose.

 

To be the best gunslingers in 40k.

[minigun762]

Tactical Terminators

Close Combat: Come stock with a power fist, perfect for punching through 2+ saves and denying Deathwing and Paladin their FNP. 2 attacks base matches everyone else on here, so nothing special here.

Shooting: 10 storm bolter shots is nothing to scoff at, and have a decent chance of taking one of those other TEQ's off the board. Throw in the fact they can overwatch and tactical terminators become a threat to a countercharging unit too.

Survivability: 2+ and 5++ ensures that only fists, hammers, and axes are punching through their armor in CC and the 5++ can serve to mitigate wounds caused by those two.

Mobility: Easily the most mobile unit here, they can deep strike, footslog, or ride in a land raider.

Options: For a handful of points you can give one guy a chainfist to make your opponent think twice about blocking you with a vehicle, and an assault cannon adds more firepower. Heavy flamers and CML's probably arent the best choice unless you're sure you're deepstriking/footslogging them.

Characters: Pretty much any character can take TDA, and none would be a bad choice to add to the squad.

 

Looking at this choice in more detail, 10 storm bolter shots will average roughly 1 dead terminator every 2 turns. Considering that they're 3++ save is twice as good as you're stock 5++ save, so you need a significant body count advantage before you assault. Just for comparison, lets say we originally had 5 of each type of terminator and over the course of 4 rounds, the tacs were able to kill off 2 hammers before assaulting (I'm going to ignore the charge bonus in the calculations below).

 

 

5 tacs vs 3 hammer/shields

10 power fists @ WS4 = 5 hits @ S8 = 4.1 wounds @ 3++ = 1.3 unsaved wounds

6 hammers @ WS4 = 3 hits @ S8 = 2.5 wounds @ 5++ = 1.7 unsaved wounds

 

Result of 1 round (rounded to nearest whole number) = 2 dead tacs and 1 dead hammer.

 

Next round:

6 power fists @ WS4 = 3 hits @ S8 = 2.5 wounds @ 3++ = 0.8 unsaved wounds

4 hammers @ WS4 = 2 hits @ S8 = 1.6 wounds @ 5++ = 1.0 unsaved wounds

 

Result of 2 round (rounded to nearest whole number) = 1 dead tacs and 1 dead hammer.

 

So we've used up the equivalent of 5 game turns (4 shooting and 1 assault) to thin down the two squads to 2 tac terminators and 1 hammer terminator, at this stage, its a flip of a coin who wins.

 

TL:DR

Hammer terminators are roughly twice as good as tac terminators when fighting each other.

 

Going

[rpnightsend]

Yes minigun, you are right in that regard, but tactical terminators have a number of other options, including overwatching if theyre charged, taking an assault cannon, and shooting before they charge, all of which could change those figures you have above

[minigun762]

Yes minigun, you are right in that regard, but tactical terminators have a number of other options, including overwatching if theyre charged, taking an assault cannon, and shooting before they charge, all of which could change those figures you have above

 

Very true, personally I've always valued the flexibility of tac terminators over the brute force of hammer/shield ones.

[thade]

Very true, personally I've always valued the flexibility of tac terminators over the brute force of hammer/shield ones.

I feel the same way, and Tac Termies have benefited a great deal from the edition changes. Heavy Flamers, Assault Cannons, and CMLs (kraks) and Storm Bolters are all nice for Overwatch, and the Assault Buff to 2+ armor is kind of huge for them.

[Reinholt]

Shooting, in my order of preference: 3 vindicators, 2 vindicators, 1 vindicator, plasma command squad, any other squad toting a ton of plasma (Sternguard), anything that can bury them in wounds.

 

Close combat, in my order of preference: Hammernators, Standard Fist Terminators

 

That's pretty much how I think they should be handled; either shoot the crap out of them or fight fire with fire in close combat. Gearing up any CC squad to take on terminators for marines ends up being more expensive than just taking one's own marines.

 

Not a fan of the ironclad because against fists or (worse) hammers, the sheer number of glancing hits you will take over the course of a combat will kill it. Still, it can be a roadblock, but unlikely to eliminate a unit of hammernators and probably is about break even with tactical terminators... assuming they don't wreck it with the assault cannon or CML they are toting first.