bystrom Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I've read through the rulebook, and spotted three different rules issues. While I know how I will be playing them (based on 5th edition), I'm still asking here as I want to know if I've missed something. The important question is regarding Infiltrate, the others are probably more semantic/philosophical. Infiltrate The first issue is Infiltrate, and is about being forced to infiltrate and whether Independent Characters can join a squad that has Infiltrate and doesn't use it (assuming they're not forced to). The quotes: Units that contain at least one model with this special rule deploy last [...] First, both players deploy their forces (apart from any units left kept as Reserves or that chose to use their Infiltrate special rule). So, while I would like to think that Infiltrate essentially works the same way as it did before, and a unit doesn't have to infiltrate, under Special Rules, I can find nothing that allows a unit to choose to use Infiltrate. The second part regarding the Infiltrate special rule is whether an Independent Character can join a unit with Infiltrate during deployment. An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment. Is a unit of Infiltrators a unit that uses Infiltrate or a unit that has the Infiltrate special rule? I'm pretty sure its the former, but I'll throw it out there to be thorough. Independent Character (IC) When a unit with an IC is destroyed, it says that [...] he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase. Can a unit charge the IC if they shot the unit (which is now destroyed), or is the IC a 'new' unit? Do Ongoing Effects disappear from an IC, because he 'becomes a unit'? I say, of course you can charge, of course the Ongoing Effects remain. Any doubt? Fear Lastly, reducing from zero to one, namely, what happens when a stationary vehicle is attacked in close combat by a Fear unit? Or, as I've just realized, what happens when a walker fights a fear unit? [...] a unit in base contact [...] must take a Leadership test [...] If the test is failed, [...] have their Weapon Skill reduced to 1 [...] [...] vehicles never take Morale checks [...] In close combat, Walkers fight like Infantry models. Now, it does say that the WS is reduced to 1. So vehicles shouldn't be affected. But what about walkers? They're essentially infantry in assault, and they only never take Morale checks, not Leadership tests. So what leadership do they use? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256325-infiltrate-ics-and-fear/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 As for Walkers, it sucks, but if you don't have said stat it counts as Zero, so you automatically fail the test. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256325-infiltrate-ics-and-fear/#findComment-3119284 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bystrom Posted July 12, 2012 Author Share Posted July 12, 2012 Where does it say that having a stat at zero means you automatically fail? On pg. 3 it only says if WS=0, if A=0, if Armour Save=0, if S/T/W=0, then this happens. On pg. 6, it tells how to roll a Leadership test, but nothing if it is zero. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256325-infiltrate-ics-and-fear/#findComment-3119327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feste Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 chose to use their Infiltrate special rule Doesn't that answer about whether you're force to Infiltrate. If it's dealing with people who choose to use their Infiltrate rule, then presumably units can choose not to use their rule. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256325-infiltrate-ics-and-fear/#findComment-3119335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feste Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Just before your quote regarding vehicles never taking Morale checks it states It is assumed, in all cases, that the crew's faith in their vehicle, and its considerable armour plating is absolute. This would assume that the intention is that they do not take them, because they will not become afraid. They don't just automatically pass the tests, they aren't even an issue. You can also see where it mentions that units embarked on a transport are Fearless. And regarding the IC, it doesn't say that he forms a New unit. Simply that he is now a unit of one. Therefore I'd imagine any effects continue and that he can be assaulted by a unit that shot at him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256325-infiltrate-ics-and-fear/#findComment-3119351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 The Fear test isn't a moral test though, but a Ld test. I've not got the book to hand, can't dig out a page reference or anything. But I'm still sure that if you're called to make a test you don't have a value in the stat for, you fail it. But I'm happy to be corrected if wrong. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256325-infiltrate-ics-and-fear/#findComment-3119360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feste Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Rather awesomely the section that deals with it called 'Vehicles, Leadership and Morale' (p 76), and never once uses the word Leadership... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256325-infiltrate-ics-and-fear/#findComment-3119368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feste Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 ... However, the section which states that if the model has a characteristic of 0 or '-' it automatically fails the test Is under Characteristic Tests, not Leadership Tests. Furthermore, Vehicles simple don't have a Leadership value to be tested, but not one that is listed as 0 or -. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256325-infiltrate-ics-and-fear/#findComment-3119369 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I've not got the book to hand, can't dig out a page reference or anything. But I'm still sure that if you're called to make a test you don't have a value in the stat for, you fail it. That's really not much help ;) I can't dig out a page reference or anything but I'm pretty sure that vehicles that must take a leadership test do so at Ld10. :lol: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256325-infiltrate-ics-and-fear/#findComment-3119379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 :P Feste kindly produced the quote in question. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256325-infiltrate-ics-and-fear/#findComment-3119392 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bystrom Posted July 13, 2012 Author Share Posted July 13, 2012 ... However, the section which states that if the model has a characteristic of 0 or '-' it automatically fails the test Is under Characteristic Tests, not Leadership Tests. Furthermore, Vehicles simple don't have a Leadership value to be tested, but not one that is listed as 0 or -. I'm guessing, what you're quoting is on pg. 7, right? On pg. 7, under Characteristic tests, it says: Such a test can be appplied against any characteristic that the model has, except for Leadership and Armour Save. Which means that even though someone with a characteristic of 0 or - automatically fail the test, this does not apply to Leadership. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256325-infiltrate-ics-and-fear/#findComment-3119785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feste Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I don't have BRB on me right now but yep that sounds right. That was my point though, you can automatically fail characteristics test but there's no provision to automatically fail a leadership test. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256325-infiltrate-ics-and-fear/#findComment-3120019 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bystrom Posted July 13, 2012 Author Share Posted July 13, 2012 Ah, ok, then I misunderstood you ;) As for Infiltrate, if you read through the description under Special Rules, there is no mention that you have a choice of using Infiltrate. If you have Infiltrate you deploy last. No ifs, no may, no choose, nothing. Compare this to for example Outflank, it does say that a unit can choose to outflank. This is in direct contradiction to the part in mission deployment, where it seems to assume that you do have a choice. So what I'm trying to say is that IMO there is no one answer to if you can choose to use Infiltrate or not, seeing as there is one place where it says you have to and one where it says you choose. Of course, in previous editions you could choose, so I will be going with choice. But RAW interpretation, it says you can and that you cannot, which is why I'm wondering if I've missed something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256325-infiltrate-ics-and-fear/#findComment-3120234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feste Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Maybe it's the semantic difference between 'can' and 'must'? In a similar vein, I feel that 'Infiltrators' are units that have the special rule Infiltrate and are using it. Not just anyone having Infiltrate no matter whether or not they're using it. Can't back that up in any way though, other than saying Infiltrate is a verb, which would make an infiltrator someone who's actively infiltrating. But that's probably one level of textual reading too deep. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256325-infiltrate-ics-and-fear/#findComment-3120523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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