Best options vs. Flyers?

[DominicJ]

Doh, reply didnt work.

 

9 vendettas is 0ver 1100pts

 

All that and they are killing 8 in cover marines, average.

 

Ignore the vettas, kill the squishy guardsmen and hold the objectives, victory

 

And that assumes they come on early, if they fail reserve roles, chances are, there wont be anything left for them to reinforce.

[wabbitrage]

Doh, reply didnt work.

 

9 vendettas is 0ver 1100pts

 

All that and they are killing 8 in cover marines, average.

 

Ignore the vettas, kill the squishy guardsmen and hold the objectives, victory

 

And that assumes they come on early, if they fail reserve roles, chances are, there wont be anything left for them to reinforce.

 

Your answer is effectly

 

a) Don't bring any vechiles

:ph34r: Don't bring any terminators or Sang guard

c) Hug cover and don't leave it. After turn 1

d) limit squads serverly on upgrades as to keep them as cheap as possible

 

Your arguement is shot down completly by the fact even if you do have 4+ cover saves on all your units If you have to claim objectives however much you dislike it you're gonna have to leave cover. Even if you average 20pts per model which is a very conservative estimate of 8 marines a turn you're writing 800pts off your army as a loss by turn 6 (assuming all the flyers come in on turn 2).

 

The second part of your arguement is attack the squishy guardsmen. Cover saves benifit lower armour save units more simply for the fact usually their cover save is better than their armour. So hide in cover all you like against a guard player he'll just do the same except he'll have enough squads to go to ground with that units that havn't can return fire at full BS.

 

Tbh in the example of 27 TL-Lascannon shots the answer is not to 'simply ignore them'

 

I used the example of vendettas' to highlight how crazy they really are. You're unlikely to face 9 of them but in a tourny 6 of them wouldn't be a suprise to me. 2+ saves in sixth are all that much better, in a tourny you'll guarantee 2/3 of the armies you face will have an expensive 2+ save unit, those units will be prime targets for those Vendetta spam armies

 

I realise i'm repeating myself but an effective counter is needed rather than simply ignoring the considerable firepower

[DominicJ]

"a) Don't bring any vechiles

cool.gif Don't bring any terminators or Sang guard

c) Hug cover and don't leave it. After turn 1

d) limit squads serverly on upgrades as to keep them as cheap as possible"

 

Thats pretty much what I do anyway...

Except I take Termies.

 

You've also got to remember, thanks to the new turning and movement rules, getting lined up to shoot is going to be hard in itself, so those 27 TL LC arent going to be shooting every turn if you position well.

It looks very scary, and against certain lists, it is, but its at the mercy of dice and enemy.

 

99 times out of 100 you could look at the two armies and there would be a clear winner

 

Against a Pod army, it'll never survive long enough to get its vendettas on the board.

Against a Horde Guard Army, it'll fail to kill enough.

ect

 

Are any BA players running around saying their three Storm Ravens now rule?

I'm sure not, and I'll back three ravens over 9 vendettas any day.

[SevenExxes]

My LGS tells me that, since the Signum is featured in the Codex and not the rule book, it trumps rule book. Like a Codex should.

[wabbitrage]

"a) Don't bring any vechiles

cool.gif Don't bring any terminators or Sang guard

c) Hug cover and don't leave it. After turn 1

d) limit squads serverly on upgrades as to keep them as cheap as possible"

 

Thats pretty much what I do anyway...

Except I take Termies.

 

You've also got to remember, thanks to the new turning and movement rules, getting lined up to shoot is going to be hard in itself, so those 27 TL LC arent going to be shooting every turn if you position well.

It looks very scary, and against certain lists, it is, but its at the mercy of dice and enemy.

 

99 times out of 100 you could look at the two armies and there would be a clear winner

 

Against a Pod army, it'll never survive long enough to get its vendettas on the board.

Against a Horde Guard Army, it'll fail to kill enough.

ect

 

Are any BA players running around saying their three Storm Ravens now rule?

I'm sure not, and I'll back three ravens over 9 vendettas any day.

 

First of all 9 Vendettas' versus 3 stormravens...you sir, are having a laugh...

 

27 TL-Lascannons against AV 12?

 

now i think you're trolling me...

 

with regards to drop pod armies. killing 580/680 pts of guard in cover with go to ground?... don't think so...

 

However you have a valid point with regards to horde armies like orks. Nids have a lot of stuff which gets owned by lascannons, but a proper horde army yeah, you're right you'd struggle against it if you were usin' Vendettas'.

 

in a theorytical battle of 9 Vendettas' its a bit extreme however like i've said before. 6 Vendettas' would probably be about the right number to bring, leaving 970/1070pts in conventonal units.

 

All i'm saying though is you'll need a proper counter against flyers without gimping your army too much.

[Nachocuban]

Just remember, if you face a flier army and you are going first, dont be afraid to boost your fliers off the turn they come on so you can get teh drop on the enemy - dogfight style!

 

On page 80, Flyers, 2nd Paragraph down on the right side, it says that when a flyer enters from Reserve, you can face it in any direction, provided the resulting move would not force the flyer off the board.

 

Does this not include boost moves?

[Darklighter]

I faced a grey knight stormraven in a game last week (my terminators punched it out of the sky as it droped off some troops) and it's movment came up as a bit of a quandry. When I read zooming it read as if you could move at combat speed of 18" OR cruising speed of 36" and not between 18-36". I arrived at this, 1 because of the wording of the rule, and 2 the way Locked Velocity is worded seems to back this up. Am I wrong or have people over looked this rule?

[Mezkh]

I don't think that's the case, Invasion Beams (Necron FAQ) seems to indicate differently as well as it specifies a 24" movement range band.

 

Best way to deal with flyers is aggressively move on the ground element, whether Drop Pods, Jumpers or 24" Rhinos. BA are pretty well suited for this. Twin-Linking helps too, and we have the Dakka-nought, Prescience, and a few TL-Las/TL-AssC to help out with that.

 

Make sure you enforce the single initial pivot and the 45 degree hull mounted weaponry rules to the letter. If they're fudged, Flyers become a lot more powerful. Games with a single Stormraven have shown me what a pain the movement restrictions can be on a table filled with terrain and units to place the SR effectively on it's initial move so it can bring the TL MM and Bloodstrikes to good use.

 

If you're sitting in your opponent's half of the board, you almost force them into TL-Plasma range, for a start...

[Morticon]

Just remember, if you face a flier army and you are going first, dont be afraid to boost your fliers off the turn they come on so you can get teh drop on the enemy - dogfight style!

 

On page 80, Flyers, 2nd Paragraph down on the right side, it says that when a flyer enters from Reserve, you can face it in any direction, provided the resulting move would not force the flyer off the board.

 

Does this not include boost moves?

 

That was my assumption, yes!

[Morticon]

Am I wrong or have people over looked this rule?

 

Check at the beginning of the book. It notes that the listed movements are up to that number. (unless specified like the 18" min with zoom)

[Remmy]

I've started to look at a Dev squad as a new staple to my lists.

 

This unit would be useful against most armies, but still maintains a high threat to flyers.

 

5-6 man dev squad. 3 missile launchers. 1 Lascannon.

 

And and option for rerolls:

 

1 divination Libby with Primaris power (I will be running mine in terminator armor)

 

I rolled it out a few times tonight and it seemed to perform respectably against av12 flyers. Just use the signum on the lascannon.

 

I haven't been playing very long but it's one of the few units That I could come up with that I'd feel comfortable harassing stormravens with.

[Drown]

I'm playing a 1500 tourney sat and running a raven and battle bro's stormtallon. My local meta doesn't have a ton of guard with vendettas but we have necrons aplenty.

I'd be more than happy to post up some battle reps of those matches where I'm facing a flier heavy army if there is interest.

 

Tourney came and went and did not face 1 flier opponent :)

Too bad, was hoping to come back with something useful.

 

On another note, 2 dev squads LC 3xML with a reg libby for primaries are for sure going into my 1850 list. I went up against a couple and gave my talon a good amount of trouble.

[SevenExxes]

Ally with Imperial Guard and take a squadron of Hydras. They get the Skyfire special rule now. Also, they have "Auto-targetting systems" that ignore the Jink special rule.

[Darklighter]

Am I wrong or have people over looked this rule?

 

Check at the beginning of the book. It notes that the listed movements are up to that number. (unless specified like the 18" min with zoom)

 

The only thing I can find like that is the bold line on the second paragraph under "The Movement Phase" page 10. Is that what you mean, as I'm not convinced this proves me wrong?

 

Zoom is listed as a special kind of movement then give the rules for it separately. Zoom and Flat Out states it can move between 12" and 24" so why wouldn't it under Zoom? Again under Zooming and Shooting it states it can fire 4 if it's moves at combat speed or cruising speed? Also every other vehicle movement is listed as an up to move.

[dswanick]

Another option is a Whirlwind Hyperios (IA2, Pg.66). You guys do play with IA rules as "official" now right :)? With the IA 6th Ed Update you have a Twin-linked, R48", S8 shot with Skyfire and Interceptor for 115pts.

[Morticon]

Pg10

"In your turn you can move any of your units - all of them if you wish- up to their maximum movement distance."

 

Pg 71

"A vehicle that travels up to 6"is said to be moving at Combat Speed"

"A vehicle that travels more than 6" and up to 12" is said to be moving at cruising speed".

 

Pg 80

"Fliers have a combat speed of 18" and a cruising speed of 36"

[Darklighter]

Pg10

"In your turn you can move any of your units - all of them if you wish- up to their maximum movement distance."

 

Pg 71

"A vehicle that travels up to 6"is said to be moving at Combat Speed"

"A vehicle that travels more than 6" and up to 12" is said to be moving at cruising speed".

 

Pg 80

"Fliers have a combat speed of 18" and a cruising speed of 36"

 

I'm not saying your wrong Mort, but the rule for Zooming is written very badly. I can't see why they need to even make the distinction between combat and cruising speed or why it's not just stated that they can move between 18" and 36". It just seems like there might be more to it with way it's worded.

[Morticon]

The rules are essentially working together to produce the result for fliers or for regular vehicles.

 

Check the rules on page 71, then replace the word vehicle with Flier and the inches with the inches on page 81.

 

The way its written shows that for fliers Combat speed is not 6" but 18" and cruising is not 12" but 36".

It doesnt overrule the initial rules for vehicles which fliers are a subcategory of.

 

Additionally it doesnt say we must move 36" or 18" or that we can only move that- all it does is tell us that the number listed is the combat speed- that means we must turn to page 71 to actually see what combat speed means.

When we do that, we're told its a vehicle moving up to 6". In this case all we need to do is replace the number.

[Darklighter]

Additionally it doesnt say we must move 36" or 18" or that we can only move that

 

That sentence alone clears it up for me. Thank you for taking the time to help me with it.

[Morticon]

Not a prob matey :P

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Doh, reply didnt work.

 

9 vendettas is 0ver 1100pts

 

All that and they are killing 8 in cover marines, average.

 

Ignore the vettas, kill the squishy guardsmen and hold the objectives, victory

 

And that assumes they come on early, if they fail reserve roles, chances are, there wont be anything left for them to reinforce.

 

 

Not that it matters, but 9 Vendettas will kill ~16.875 Marines in the open or ~11.25 Marines in 5+ cover, per turn.

 

 

Edit: For comparison, 9 Necron Scythes will kill ~13.33 MEQ per turn and don't care about cover or not.

[CaptainLNH]

The best way to take out flyers, for us Blood Angels, is a Stormraven. Here is why.

 

We have AV 12 and negates melta, other flyers are 11 or 10 AV.

 

Every SR has 40 str. 8 ap-1 missles, that can be fired with Skyfire rule.

 

So, fire 2 missles, hit on 3s, 50% chance of penetration, ap 1 means plus 2 on damage table...... hehehehhehe

 

Then factor in assault cannon, 4 shots with possible rending, or a multimelta brought into range by moving 36" with plus one on damage from AP 2,

or even a typhoon launcher, with two str. 8 missles,..... hehehe

 

I have also used a SR with HBs and Plasma cannon to shoot Nid Harpies to bits, since they only have armor 4+, and the PC is TL,

[Morticon]

Doh, reply didnt work.

 

9 vendettas is 0ver 1100pts

 

All that and they are killing 8 in cover marines, average.

 

Ignore the vettas, kill the squishy guardsmen and hold the objectives, victory

 

And that assumes they come on early, if they fail reserve roles, chances are, there wont be anything left for them to reinforce.

 

 

Not that it matters, but 9 Vendettas will kill ~16.875 Marines in the open or ~11.25 Marines in 5+ cover, per turn.

 

 

Edit: For comparison, 9 Necron Scythes will kill ~13.33 MEQ per turn and don't care about cover or not.

 

Are we including the 18 heavy bolters the 'Dettas get for a paltry 90 points?

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Doh, reply didnt work.

 

9 vendettas is 0ver 1100pts

 

All that and they are killing 8 in cover marines, average.

 

Ignore the vettas, kill the squishy guardsmen and hold the objectives, victory

 

And that assumes they come on early, if they fail reserve roles, chances are, there wont be anything left for them to reinforce.

 

 

Not that it matters, but 9 Vendettas will kill ~16.875 Marines in the open or ~11.25 Marines in 5+ cover, per turn.

 

 

Edit: For comparison, 9 Necron Scythes will kill ~13.33 MEQ per turn and don't care about cover or not.

 

 

Are we including the 18 heavy bolters the 'Dettas get for a paltry 90 points?

 

Oh snap! I was just calculating the TL-LC.... so when you add on 18 HB shots, that adds 6.00 dead MEQ per turn.

 

So 9 Vendettas will kill 17.25 MEQ in 5+ cover ;)

[Morticon]

ill make your job more difficult- they can only fire one of those 2 HBs each - since zooming fliers only fire 4 weapons.