Initiative step

[dizzy-xc]

Close combat is fought as a series of Initiative Steps. Each step starts with Pile In, then models MUST attack, then the step ends. There is no provision for Piling In and not attacking (the rules are extremely specific about this - if you are in this I-step then you MUST attack). Similarly, there is no wording in the rules that states that you may join an I-step but not be allowed to Pile-In. Therefore in the case of the Halberd you MUST pile in and attack in the same I-step.

 

The same is true of Unwieldy weapons. You attack at I-step 1, therefore you are a part of I-step 1, therefore your Pile-In happens at I-step 1. The wording is quite clear - page 23 and page 24 both use the phrase "Initiative" to refer to the same thing therefore there is no possibility of argument here: if you Pile In on an I-step you MUST attack. Unwieldy states that you take part in I-step 1, therefore I-step 1 is when you pile-in. Arguing that the Pile-In rule on p23 is not overridden by Unwieldy but the attack rule on p24 is - when they both use the same phrase and refer to the same thing - is fairly illogical.

 

I agree with this.

 

The problem is some of us are creating multiple sub categories of initiative and choosing which to use for what. The BRB doesnt do that. I quoted myself above and the rule was clear and simple, Initiative values can be modified by some things, weapons being among them. Once your initiative is modified, that is the one you use for Pile In. Simple and easy.

[JamesI]

Close combat is fought as a series of Initiative Steps. Each step starts with Pile In, then models MUST attack, then the step ends. There is no provision for Piling In and not attacking (the rules are extremely specific about this - if you are in this I-step then you MUST attack). Similarly, there is no wording in the rules that states that you may join an I-step but not be allowed to Pile-In. Therefore in the case of the Halberd you MUST pile in and attack in the same I-step.

 

The same is true of Unwieldy weapons. You attack at I-step 1, therefore you are a part of I-step 1, therefore your Pile-In happens at I-step 1. The wording is quite clear - page 23 and page 24 both use the phrase "Initiative" to refer to the same thing therefore there is no possibility of argument here: if you Pile In on an I-step you MUST attack. Unwieldy states that you take part in I-step 1, therefore I-step 1 is when you pile-in. Arguing that the Pile-In rule on p23 is not overridden by Unwieldy but the attack rule on p24 is - when they both use the same phrase and refer to the same thing - is fairly illogical.

 

I agree with this.

 

The problem is some of us are creating multiple sub categories of initiative and choosing which to use for what. The BRB doesnt do that. I quoted myself above and the rule was clear and simple, Initiative values can be modified by some things, weapons being among them. Once your initiative is modified, that is the one you use for Pile In. Simple and easy.

I agree with Dizzy and Puffin.

[Gentlemanloser]

Hmm. If, for example, a GK Halberd makes a GK I6 for all purposes;

 

Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a model's Initiative

 

What happens to sweeping advance and hit and run tests?

 

Now, if there *isn't* a differentiation between Initiative and Initiative Step, we're back to Quickening/Banshee Masks attacking at I10 with Unwieldy Weapons as Codex > BRB.

 

The only reason this doesn't work, is these powers change *initiative* and unwieldy changes *Initiative Step*.

 

If you want to rule they're both the same (and you cannot have a different I and I Step), then I'm gonna hit you with a Strike Squad full of I10 NDH. While running away from Power Axe Banshees.

[dizzy-xc]

So your way makes more sense where a marine piles in and then cannot attack?

[Gentlemanloser]

Yes.

 

Unless you think I10 Thunderhammers makes more sense.

[Mezkh]

Glad there is a bit more pushback on the pile in I(X) attack at I(Y) thing, always seemed an odd argument to me.

 

The sentence that states "certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a model's Initiative" says it all.

[Seahawk]

I10 NDH it is then. Have at it, gents! :ermm:

 

For that matter, I'll respond to some questions:

 

Where does it say that? How are you coming to that conclusion?

A model's Initiative is not modified by terrain or Unwieldy, and a simple glance at the rules reveals why. Here are some examples of things that do not modify the Initiative but instead tell you when to attack:

 

"...all of the unit's models must attack at Initiative step 1..." (BRB, p.22)

"A model attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative step 1..." (BRB, p.43)

"...the wielder of a Nemesis halberd strike as +2 Initiative." (C:GK, p.54)

 

These absolutely no not modify a model's Initiative in the slightest. It merely tells you when you can attack. Here are some examples that actually modify a model's Initiative:

 

"...the Librarian has...Initiative 10..." (C:SM, p.57)

"...a model wearing a Banshee mask has Initiative 10..." (C:E, p.31)

"...any enemy model that is in base to base contact with a Tyranid with...lash whips counts their Initiative value as 1..." (C:T, p.83)

"...any enemy model is in base contact with a model with whip coils they count their Initiative value as 1..." (C:N, p.44)

 

Can we understand the difference of language used with these? One set says "Attacks at X step" and the other says "Their characteristic is X." This is a very important distinction that has been overlooked.

 

 

To address other stuff:

- No, this does not give models two I values. It only has one, but attacks at a different step than normal. This is allowed because Advanced > Basic.

- No, this does not modify the value because then the value would be permanently that raised or lowered value and would affect Characteristic Tests rather unfairly for certain items of wargear or psychic powers.

 

What happens to sweeping advance and hit and run tests?

As in the rules, this is done on the unmodified values. As noted above, Characteristic Tests do not use the unmodified values.

[Splitwrist]

So I played a Necron player with a unit who's name escapes me but they had a special rule that made any model in base to base with it operate at INT 1. No problem that's easy enough to figure out. But because the unit had a INT level higher then my marines, more then a few times I would find myself using my model's orginal INT step pile in to reach base to base with these characters. So here's the rub once they come into base to base does there turn at the model's orginal INT end? Or do they get to finish their combat at the models orginal INT and then on the next turn operate at INT 1?

[Grey Mage]

Whipcoils state you count the models initiative as 1, regardless of its actual initiative- so youd pile in and strike at I1.

[Seahawk]

There are already a few topics about Initiative, so it'd be good to check them out. This is a good post about it <_<.

 

In your specific case, it would happen that the space marine Piles In at I4, but cannot attack until I1.

 

@Grey Mage - No, that wouldn't happen. The space marine is still I4 at the pile in step (when he's not in BTB) but then becomes I1 when he gets into BTB.

[dizzy-xc]

Well written Seahawk. Don't have my GK codex handy. How do NDH's attack at I10?

[Gentlemanloser]

The Quickening.

[Gentlemanloser]

"...any enemy model that is in base to base contact with a Tyranid with...lash whips counts their Initiative value as 1..."

 

So a GK with a NFH would attack at I6, then Pile in at I4 and be reduced to I1.

 

o_O

[dswanick]

Excellent summation, Seahawk. I was begin to think that I was the only one who was seeing the words for what they said instead of what I wanted them to mean.

[Raeven]

If you want to rule they're both the same (and you cannot have a different I and I Step), then I'm gonna hit you with a Strike Squad full of I10 NDH. While running away from Power Axe Banshees.

 

 

I am ruling that Pile In and Attack happens at the same Initiative step, not as seperate events. I don't see anything in the rules that seperates a models initiative step from it's modified or unmodified initiative, because the terms Initiative Step and Initiative are used interchangeably throughout the section between pages 22-24. Trying to interpret the rules based on old terminology is going to cause confusion, because Initiative Step didn't exist in the terminology until 6th edition. Pg 22 states it quite clearly, "a models Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat." A models initiative value must be changed to reflect it's gear and special rules, for the purpose of when it can attack. This change happens before pile in is even mentioned.

[dswanick]

That's fine, just so long as you are on board for Banshees wielding Power Axes and Grey Knights wielding Daemon Hammers at I10...

Just be sure to let your local group know that that's how you want to play it, I'm sure they'll let you. :D

[puffin]

That's fine, just so long as you are on board for Banshees wielding Power Axes and Grey Knights wielding Daemon Hammers at I10...

Just be sure to let your local group know that that's how you want to play it, I'm sure they'll let you. :D

Umm, except that Unwieldy clearly tells you which Initiative Step you MUST perform your actions in (I'll give you a clue: it's 1).

 

I agree with Raeven. The term "Initiative" between pages 22 and 26 is clearly referring to a single value which is your modified Initiative for the purposes of combat.

 

It works like this:

 

Do you have a special rule that determines which Istep you are in? (Unwieldy: you always use Istep 1)

If NOT, then determine which step you are in by checking your modified combat initiative (Quickening: I10, Halberd I+2, Characteristic).

 

Now perform ALL actions involved in that I-step (Pile In, then Attack).

[dswanick]

That's fine, just so long as you are on board for Banshees wielding Power Axes and Grey Knights wielding Daemon Hammers at I10...

Just be sure to let your local group know that that's how you want to play it, I'm sure they'll let you. :D

Umm, except that Unwieldy clearly tells you which Initiative Step you MUST perform your actions in (I'll give you a clue: it's 1).

 

I agree with Raeven. The term "Initiative" between pages 22 and 26 is clearly referring to a single value which is your modified Initiative for the purposes of combat.

 

It works like this:

 

Do you have a special rule that determines which Istep you are in? (Unwieldy: you always use Istep 1)

If NOT, then determine which step you are in by checking your modified combat initiative (Quickening: I10, Halberd I+2, Characteristic).

 

Now perform ALL actions involved in that I-step (Pile In, then Attack).

"Codex > Rulebook", BRB, Pg.7. "Quickening/Banshee Mask > Unwieldy", game...set...match.

[puffin]

Incorrect. Quickening/Banshee Mask are modifiers to the Initiative Characteristic whereas Unwieldy changes the mechanic involved in selecting the initiative step so that the models Initiative Characteristic is ignored. As the rule is changed there is no conflict. Unwieldy ignores Quickening/Mask.

 

Didn't you make that exact argument earlier?

[Gentlemanloser]

I don't get it.

 

The term "Initiative" between pages 22 and 26 is clearly referring to a single value which is your modified Initiative for the purposes of combat.

 

Quickening = I10

Unwieldy = I1

 

Codex > BRB

 

Do you have a special rule that determines which Istep you are in? (Unwieldy: you always use Istep 1)

 

Quickening and Banshee masks are special rules. Codex ones that trump BRB unwieldy.

 

Unless. Iniative and Initiative Step are seperate.

[puffin]

Unless. Iniative and Initiative Step are seperate.

 

Yes, they are. Initiative is used to determine the Initiative Step you're in (unless you have a rule that tells you directly).

 

As said before:

 

1. Are you under the instruction of a special rule that tells you directly which step you are in? If so, that is your step.

2. If not, determine your step by using your modified combat Initiative (now look at your I characteristic and apply modifiers like Quickening and Halberd). You now know what Initiative Step you are in.

 

I don't understand how you think a rule that says "Your initiative is 10" overrides the rule "Unwieldy models always fight in Initiative Step 1".

[dswanick]

Unless. Iniative and Initiative Step are seperate.

 

Yes, they are. Initiative is used to determine the Initiative Step you're in (unless you have a rule that tells you directly).

 

As said before:

 

1. Are you under the instruction of a special rule that tells you directly which step you are in? If so, that is your step.

2. If not, determine your step by using your modified combat Initiative (now look at your I characteristic and apply modifiers like Quickening and Halberd). You now know what Initiative Step you are in.

 

I don't understand how you think a rule that says "Your initiative is 10" overrides the rule "Unwieldy models always fight in Initiative Step 1".

Because Codex > Rulebook, and you and Raeven are arguing that "Initiative" = "Initiative step" :

Close combat is fought as a series of Initiative Steps. Each step starts with Pile In, then models MUST attack, then the step ends. There is no provision for Piling In and not attacking (the rules are extremely specific about this - if you are in this I-step then you MUST attack). Similarly, there is no wording in the rules that states that you may join an I-step but not be allowed to Pile-In. Therefore in the case of the Halberd you MUST pile in and attack in the same I-step.

 

The same is true of Unwieldy weapons. You attack at I-step 1, therefore you are a part of I-step 1, therefore your Pile-In happens at I-step 1. The wording is quite clear - page 23 and page 24 both use the phrase "Initiative" to refer to the same thing therefore there is no possibility of argument here: if you Pile In on an I-step you MUST attack. Unwieldy states that you take part in I-step 1, therefore I-step 1 is when you pile-in. Arguing that the Pile-In rule on p23 is not overridden by Unwieldy but the attack rule on p24 is - when they both use the same phrase and refer to the same thing - is fairly illogical.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either "Initiative = Initiative step" and I10 from Banshee Mask/Quickening allows a model to Pile In, Fight, Purse, etc... at I10 or "Initiative step ≠ Initiative" in which case you may find yourself Piling In and Fighting in different Initiative steps depending on the rules involved.

 

Further

Unless. Iniative and Initiative Step are seperate.

1. Are you under the instruction of a special rule that tells you directly which step you are in? If so, that is your step.

Unwieldy, for example, doesn't tell you that your model "acts" in Initiative step 1, only that its attacks are resolved in that step.

[Seahawk]

It doesn't. It just means you pile in at I10 and strike at I1 ;).

 

As brought up in another thread: A Grey Knight with a Nemesis Force Halberd would attack at I6, then Pile in at I4 and be reduced to I1 when confront by Wraiths with whip coils or Tyranids with lash whips, due to how GW chose the wording for the assault phase.

[dswanick]

I think the fundamental disconnect in the two camps on this debate can be summed up thus :

Is the "Initiative step" of the "Fight sub-phase" rule a monolithic whole which can not be sub-divided?

- if this is your view then you are arguing that a model's Pile In move, it's "who can fight" determination, and its Attacks can not be individually handled in seperate Initiative steps.

Or, is the "Initiative step" further sub-divided by the rules for "Start of Initiative Step Pile In", "Who can fight?", "Number of Attacks", Rolling to Hit", Rolling to Wound", and "Allocating Wounds"

- if this is your view then you ar arguing that a model's Pile In move, "who can fight" determination, and its Attacks can be individually altered by a rule which only address one or another.

Player turn
- Movement phase
- Shooting phase
+ Assault phase
 - Charge Sub-phase
 + Fight sub-phase
  - Choose a Combat
  + Fight a Combat
+ Initiative steps
	 - Start of Initiative step Pile In
 - Who can Fight?
 - Number of Attacks
	 - Rolling to-hit
 - Rolling to-wound
 - Allocating wounds
 - Saves
  - Determine Assault results

[MalachiOfRuss]

I think a model Piles In at whatever modified Initiative it makes its attacks at. At what step a models makes its Pile In move all hinges on the interpretation of the wording "fights at." Personally, I think RAI are that a model Piles In at whatever Initiative Step it is "fighting at."

 

That said, if the model is not in Base to Base with the Wraith with Whip Coils after it completes its Charge Move, then moves into b2b during Pile In, I would agree that it is reduced to I1 immediately and therefore does not swing until I1.