Tanking characters (the insanity of 3++)

[daboarder]

Hello brothers,

 

I assume by now most of you have had the chance to peruse the new rules and get acquainted with them. Myself I've already had 6 games with my Nurgle marines and have notice some things that can be applied to our BA armies to make them far more powerful in the new addition.

 

We all know how the new wound allocation and LOS works, but have we all recognized the impact this will have on game play? Many people have suggested running their sergeants and characters at the back of squads to prevent them getting sniped or picked off. I propose the opposite, I propose to give sergeants pride of place at the for front effectively Increasing the survivability of entire units with a few specific rules interactions. (assume the presence of a priest)

 

Firstly consider the humble sergeant with SS and Power Axe. He hurts in combat and isn't too many points. He also effectively gives your entire squad a 3++ save, If he is at the front of the unit any wounds have to get through him first, so all those plasma guns are useless, the best thing is that if he has failed the 3+ against a wound that is AP- to AP4 he still LOS on a 4+ into another model any that still go through well he has a 5+ FNP save in almost all situations.

This is even better in combat as providing he is in base contact with an enemy model at the relevant I step he gets to tank any wounds done to the squad, all you have to do is allocate them to him essentially giving the entire squad a 3++/5+FNP save against any close combat attacks that are likely to worry them.

 

This combination of rules is going to drastically lower the damage taken by our basic troop squads on the way in. This versatility is increased tenfold when used by a character with multiple wounds as in minimizes the risk of botching BOTH a LOS and FNP roll and loosing the 3++. I propose here and now that the Best HQ choices in our armies are now the humble captain, he is a cheap wounds soak with access to a SS and multiple wounds turning any unit he is in into a rock that is ver hard to move.

 

Think about the possibilities.

 

with this in Mind sergeants with a SS and Power Axe have just become a staple in my list, Its only 10pts more than the old Power Fist mode and I no longer NEED the power fist as there is not much in the game that wont drop to either S6 AP2 and mass S5 (or S6 krak) attacks.

 

EDIT3: tidied it up.

[dswanick]

He also effectively gives your entire squad a 3++ save, If he is at the front of the unit any wounds have to get through him first, so all those plasma guns are useless, the best thing is that after he has failed the 3++ he still LOS on a 4+ into another model that still has a 5+ FNP save in almost all situations.

This seems to be a common misconception in 6th Ed. It is wrong.

In a unit of mixed saves (models with 3+ and one with 3+/3++ is a mixed save unit). You allocate wounds to models before rolling to save. You LoS when you allocate the wound. So in this example you allocate the wound to the Sgt with 3++ then make a LoS roll, on a success the wound is resolved on another model who then takes his saves. If you allocate to the 3++, and then roll the save it is now too late to LoS the wound to someone else. The model who made took his save looses the Wound.

[wabbitrage]

Ok in the example of a sergeant with a SS and Power axe. I personally don't think thats a good idea becuase since you're not getting they + 1 attacks for 2 ccws then you might aswell use a SS and PF.

 

For arguements sake lets just guesstimate a sergeants value at 30 pts (assault squad sergeant with jp) SS is +20 points PF is +25

 

Thats a 75 pt model. while the rest of the run at say 17.5pts un-upgraded.

 

Said squad takes 7 wounds (normal saves) and say 1 wound at AP2 for example say a plamsagun or metlagun.

 

If you have the sergeant at the front like suggested you're going to want to LOS. So first of all the player firing at your lovely squad decides to resolve the normal wounds first. its (Math) Hammer-time!

 

3.5 of those are gonna get LOS'd

 

So 3.5 wounds on your sergeant. you're likely to fail one or two and the likelyhood is you're going to lose your sergeant even with FNP (roughly 75pts)

Then 3.5 wounds on your squad.you're likely to lose another squad member (roughly 17.5pts)

Then since you've lost your 3++ he allocates the AP2 wound. 3rd member dead (roughly 17.5pts)

 

17.5 + 17.5 + 75 = 110 pt loss (100 with power axe)

 

You could have simply put your sergeant out of harms way. (17.5 x 3 = 52.3pt loss)

 

in the example (which is not tottally un-feasable) you lost nearly double the pts by putting your sergeant in harms way

[Morticon]

correct.

 

Only he has a 3++, so its an individual allocation and LOS before you resolve the wound.

[daboarder]

So 3.5 wounds on your sergeant. you're likely to fail one or two and the likelyhood is you're going to lose your sergeant even with FNP (roughly 75pts)

Then 3.5 wounds on your squad.you're likely to lose another squad member (roughly 17.5pts)

Then since you've lost your 3++ he allocates the AP2 wound. 3rd member dead (roughly 17.5pts)

Your sergeant is not likely to drop form 3 wounds given his 3+/5+ save and even taking that into account that is the reason you don't kit them out with PF's too many points in one basket.

 

You also have to remeber that shooting is only a part of the game, the 3++ save is huge in combat where the opponent CANNOT high volume fire snipe your sergeant because you will likely have multiple models in base to base combat thus allowing your sergeant to effectively tank the armour save denying wounds wil the rest of the squad eats the others.

 

Basically the principle still works with a little moding and a good understanding of the risks.

[dswanick]

sorry got the order mixed up I'll edit it.

 

What I initially meant and somehow got lost tping was that you take any NON-AP3 wounds on the LOS but the plasma wounds and such are tanked by the sergeant. The end effect is the same a 3++ save for the squad essentially nullifying ANY low AP weapons the enemy has. They will try get round it by forcing you to take the large volume high AP saves first but you'll LOS half or better of those away and still get your 3+ followed by 5+ against those.

 

So 3.5 wounds on your sergeant. you're likely to fail one or two and the likelyhood is you're going to lose your sergeant even with FNP (roughly 75pts)

Then 3.5 wounds on your squad.you're likely to lose another squad member (roughly 17.5pts)

Then since you've lost your 3++ he allocates the AP2 wound. 3rd member dead (roughly 17.5pts)

Your sergeant is not likely to drop form 3 wounds given his 3+/5+ save and even taking that into account that is the reason you don't kit them out with PF's too many points in one basket.

 

You also have to remeber that shooting is only a part of the game, the 3++ save is huge in combat where the opponent CANNOT high volume fire snipe your sergeant because you will likely have multiple models in base to base combat thus allowing your sergeant to effectively tank the armour save denying wounds wil the rest of the squad eats the others.

 

Basically the principle still works with a little moding and a good understanding of the risks.

If your Sgt is the closest model to an enemy unit shooting it - said unit needs only 9 wounds to statistically saturate his 3+/4+/5+ and kill your Sgt. And that's assuming that the enemy doesn't maneuver to place him out of the direct line of fire.

[daboarder]

Wait a minute we've both made a mistake and I was right!

 

 

In a unit of mixed saves (models with 3+ and one with 3+/3++ is a mixed save unit).

 

This is the common misconception as well, Its based on what save is currently being used, this is why cover works its a model by model basis.

 

SO:

 

against Ap- to Ap4 wounds in the above scenario LOS comes AFTER the saving throws are taken.

 

However in Ap3 to Ap1 wounds LOS does indeed come BEFORE therefore the entire unit does essentially get a 3++.

 

Were now going to assume that all the models in the unit have the same SAVING THROW...

Allocating wounds pg15

 

If your Sgt is the closest model to an enemy unit shooting it - said unit needs only 9 wounds to statistically saturate his 3+/4+/5+ and kill your Sgt. And that's assuming that the enemy doesn't maneuver to place him out of the direct line of fire.

 

Yes that is a good point but the SS still gives you an effective 3++ save in combat.

[wabbitrage]

So 3.5 wounds on your sergeant. you're likely to fail one or two and the likelyhood is you're going to lose your sergeant even with FNP (roughly 75pts)

Then 3.5 wounds on your squad.you're likely to lose another squad member (roughly 17.5pts)

Then since you've lost your 3++ he allocates the AP2 wound. 3rd member dead (roughly 17.5pts)

 

Your sergeant is not likely to drop form 3 wounds given his 3+/5+ save.

 

Actually between 3-4 wounds you're sergeant is actually quite likely to die.

 

My point of allocating an AP2 weapon in their aswell was to highlight that your SS had no effect.

 

It would be madness to try and use your sergeant to tank wounds unless it was a desperate gamit or something

[daboarder]

So 3.5 wounds on your sergeant. you're likely to fail one or two and the likelyhood is you're going to lose your sergeant even with FNP (roughly 75pts)

Then 3.5 wounds on your squad.you're likely to lose another squad member (roughly 17.5pts)

Then since you've lost your 3++ he allocates the AP2 wound. 3rd member dead (roughly 17.5pts)

 

Your sergeant is not likely to drop form 3 wounds given his 3+/5+ save.

 

Actually between 3-4 wounds you're sergeant is actually quite likely to die.

 

My point of allocating an AP2 weapon in their aswell was to highlight that your SS had no effect.

 

It would be madness to try and use your sergeant to tank wounds unless it was a desperate gamit or something

 

Any squad with access to plasma is NOT likely to do the required 9 wounds to kill a sergeant in one wound pool

 

Perhaps a sergeant tank is madness, but a Captain one...now that's got REAL possibilities.

 

Lets take your average tac squad, and I'll give you rapid fire range.

 

2 plasma shots lets say one plasma wound taking into account to hit and to wound rolls.

 

then one missile hit and wound (krak)

 

then 16 bolt gun wounds, 11 hits and 5-6 wounds.

 

so your largest wound pool is 5 I then get a 3+ save so 1-2 wounds on the sergeant

 

followed by a 4+ LOS (all wounds have the same "saving throw")

 

and finally a 5+ FNP

 

That is NOT likely to knock out my sergeant before the plasma is allocated.

[Taranis]

I see your reasons and like the idea. It's also another reason to bring Corbulo.

[dswanick]

Wait a minute we've both made a mistake and I was right!

No. I'm sorry if my statements ran together and got confusing. My comment on Mixed-Armor situations was in regards to AP1-3-type wounds. My math-hammer example was assuming AP4+ wounds. Let me seperate them -

I will assume that you want to use your (Ch) to tank the wounds, so he is up front of a 10 man squad.

 

If your opponent chooses AP1-3 shots first - you will allocate the wounds first to your (Ch) as the unit counts as Mixed-Save (3+ & 3++). You don't want to LoS these shots or he is not doing his job of "tanking" them. In which case he gets his 3++/5+, 5 shots should saturate that defense and kill the IC.

 

If your opponent chooses AP4+ first - you batch roll a 3+/4+/5+, in which case 9 shots saturates his defense.

 

The only benefit, really, is in the case of AP1-3 shots, you LoS the shot before making the save and pawn it off on the Red Shirt of your choosing. Choosing to avoid anyone with special wargear.

[daboarder]

yep that sounds about right

 

Not many units can put 9 definite WOUNDS on a space marine unit without resulting to AP3-2

 

it suffers against units such as Orks or Nids that rely only on volume of fire to get through your saves but Most units in the game operate on middling high Ap wounds mixed in with the occasional AP3-2 wound to kill marines.

 

I really think this has potential especially against those units that seem tailor made to kill marines using low volume low AP shots, and for xxpts you cna effectively deny them however many points they have spent on their unit to get the AP

 

how about this:

 

Plasma Vets, scar the Cr*p out of marine players and given the changes to the vehicle rules we will start to see al ot more of these

 

6 Plasma shots 3 hits usually 3 dead marines.

 

with a tank sergeant you get 3 wound covered by a 3++/5+FnP save greatly reducing the damage the squad takes ffrom a unit specifically designed to kill them.

 

Works even better in CC where I can cherry pick where the wounds go before rolling a thing unless you somehow manage to get only my sergeant in Base to base at the correct I step.

[wabbitrage]

yep that sounds about right

 

Not many units can put 9 definite WOUNDS on a space marine unit without resulting to AP3-2

 

it suffers against units such as Orks or Nids that rely only on volume of fire to get through your saves but Most units in the game operate on middling high Ap wounds mixed in with the occasional AP3-2 wound to kill marines.

 

I really think this has potential especially against those units that seem tailor made to kill marines using low volume low AP shots, and for xxpts you cna effectively deny them however many points they have spent on their unit to get the AP

 

Humour me.

 

1 tactical squad in a rhino moves 6" disembarks 6" then preceeds to rapid fire

 

the Sergeant is packing a combi weapon but lets say he fires it as a bolter.

Rhino fires a storm bolter.

The heavy weapon marine fires his bolt pistol instead due to higher chances of success.

Plasma guy rapid fires.

 

This to me is a normal day at the office as far as 40k goes.

 

thats 19 bolter shots including the rhino and bolt pistol.

Then 2 plasma shots.

 

Since the shooter can choose to resolve the bolter rounds first thats 19 bolter rounds at your sergeant if you place him to 'tank' the hits

 

19x(2/3) = 12.666 hits

 

12.666/2 = 6.333 hits on sergeant (Look out sir roll)

 

6.333/2 = 3.1665 wounds on your sergeant

 

Ok this is the law of averages only. However i wouldn't fancy my sergeants chances if it were mine. Also if you spend 65 pts on upgrading him up with a SS and PW you'd feel the loss when if he died just to standard bolter fire in which neither of your upgrades did jack for him.

 

Your arguement with using a captain is a lot more compelling and i can agree this tactic does seem very viable espeically with a 2+ save. For god's sake though don't do it with a sergeant.

[dswanick]

yep that sounds about right

 

Not many units can put 9 definite WOUNDS on a space marine unit without resulting to AP3-2

 

it suffers against units such as Orks or Nids that rely only on volume of fire to get through your saves but Most units in the game operate on middling high Ap wounds mixed in with the occasional AP3-2 wound to kill marines.

 

I really think this has potential especially against those units that seem tailor made to kill marines using low volume low AP shots, and for xxpts you cna effectively deny them however many points they have spent on their unit to get the AP

 

how about this:

 

Plasma Vets, scar the Cr*p out of marine players and given the changes to the vehicle rules we will start to see al ot more of these

 

6 Plasma shots 3 hits usually 3 dead marines.

 

with a tank sergeant you get 3 wound covered by a 3++/5+FnP save greatly reducing the damage the squad takes ffrom a unit specifically designed to kill them.

Agreed. My last game was against 'nids. I took 29 wounds from a Gaunt unit. With my Wolf Priest in 2+, and my Wolf Guard in 2+/5++, my 12 man unit took 6 casualties total, which is just about average. Just remember a Tac squad with Plasma Gun and Plasma Cannon (and you will be seeing a lot more of those) will probably put 5-6 AP2 and 6 non-AP wounds on your theoretical unit.

[SevenExxes]

Sanguinary priests are the new sergeants.

[Tamwulf]

BA Tactical Squad Sergeants can't take SS/Power Weapon. Only BA Assault Squad Sergeants can take that combo.

 

It's a bit on the expensive side, costing 1/3 the cost of a regular Assault Squad. You'll also have a Character that will get beat in close combat.

 

I'm not a big fan of the Power Axe, especially in a Blood Angel army. It's very easy for BA to get Furious Charge (+1 S), and the sergeant being described can only be taken by a BA Assault Squad, so it's also going to get Hammer of Wrath and should always be assaulting first. +1 attack at initiative 1 isn't all that, especially when it's on a character that is going to be challenged. Granted, it's cheaper then a P-fist, but the P-fist is an almost guaranteed wound/instant death if he lives.

 

The amount of firepower your opponent will have to direct towards this unit to make it ineffective also highlights a very important tactical consideration: What is the rest of his army doing? How will you capitalize on this?

 

In all the mathhammer above, I don't recall anyone factoring FNP saves. I don't know how you guys play your BA, but every unit I field is close enough/can easily get FNP. Using a Sanguinary Priest, this sergeant becomes an even better tank.

[Dragonet40k]

I'm not a big fan of the Power Axe, especially in a Blood Angel army. It's very easy for BA to get Furious Charge (+1 S), and the sergeant being described can only be taken by a BA Assault Squad, so it's also going to get Hammer of Wrath and should always be assaulting first. +1 attack at initiative 1 isn't all that, especially when it's on a character that is going to be challenged. Granted, it's cheaper then a P-fist, but the P-fist is an almost guaranteed wound/instant death if he lives.

 

Remember, the +1 S from FC and wielding a Power Axe stacks, giving you S6 on the charge, wounding most enemies on 2+, so the only thing you lose over a PF is the IDing T4 opponents. And against anything you'd want to ID, you probably won't survive to land attacks whichever weapon you're wielding.

 

I am tempted to try an army with the Sanguinor in it and playing with the list so that the Assault Sqd is the only squad with a Sergeant, to guarantee him having the Blessing.

[daboarder]

yep that sounds about right

 

Not many units can put 9 definite WOUNDS on a space marine unit without resulting to AP3-2

 

it suffers against units such as Orks or Nids that rely only on volume of fire to get through your saves but Most units in the game operate on middling high Ap wounds mixed in with the occasional AP3-2 wound to kill marines.

 

I really think this has potential especially against those units that seem tailor made to kill marines using low volume low AP shots, and for xxpts you cna effectively deny them however many points they have spent on their unit to get the AP

 

Humour me.

 

1 tactical squad in a rhino moves 6" disembarks 6" then preceeds to rapid fire

 

the Sergeant is packing a combi weapon but lets say he fires it as a bolter.

Rhino fires a storm bolter.

The heavy weapon marine fires his bolt pistol instead due to higher chances of success.

Plasma guy rapid fires.

 

This to me is a normal day at the office as far as 40k goes.

 

thats 19 bolter shots including the rhino and bolt pistol.

Then 2 plasma shots.

 

Since the shooter can choose to resolve the bolter rounds first thats 19 bolter rounds at your sergeant if you place him to 'tank' the hits

 

19x(2/3) = 12.666 hits

 

12.666/2 = 6.333 hits on sergeant (Look out sir roll)

 

6.333/2 = 3.1665 wounds on your sergeant

 

Ok this is the law of averages only. However i wouldn't fancy my sergeants chances if it were mine. Also if you spend 65 pts on upgrading him up with a SS and PW you'd feel the loss when if he died just to standard bolter fire in which neither of your upgrades did jack for him.

 

Your arguement with using a captain is a lot more compelling and i can agree this tactic does seem very viable espeically with a 2+ save. For god's sake though don't do it with a sergeant.

 

 

It not much but the rhino should be taken out of this equation, its an entirely different wound pool.

also if the sergeant manages to roll a 6 to hit then his attacks are a different wound pool as well.

 

your right about the SS getting overwhelmed but I don't think its as easy as all that.

 

And the point still stands, do this with a captain and that 2+LOS roll makes the tactic much much more effective. you have 3 wounds a 3++ save and 5+ FNP to stop anything like that tearing the squad apart.

[Mezkh]

I would love to play a game against 'Sergeant tanks'.

The reasoning why has really already been covered :lol:

 

Sticking Belial out in front of the DW unit is a different story. But regular old Sergeants, doesn't work I'm afraid.

 

Doesn't work with Corbulo either by the way.

[daboarder]

again I reiterate, can we get some thoughts on tanking sergeants in combat? a 3++ against any power weapon or fist attacks that is for the whole squad sounds pretty good to me, provided the sergeant is in B2B.

[Morticon]

Doesn't work with Corbulo either by the way.

 

Actually it works famously with Corbulo (and other 3+ save guys)

 

Saves are defined as: Armour, Cover and Invulnerable. So, yes- he can tank - take the hits, do his FNP and then LoS it as per same save allocation.

 

In the event of AP1/2 and 2xT weapons, you just LoS from the start.

[daboarder]

Doesn't work with Corbulo either by the way.

 

Actually it works famously with Corbulo (and other 3+ save guys)

 

Saves are defined as: Armour, Cover and Invulnerable. So, yes- he can tank - take the hits, do his FNP and then LoS it as per same save allocation.

 

In the event of AP1/2 and 2xT weapons, you just LoS from the start.

 

Actually mort LOS comes Before FNP roles as its re-arranging the allocation and FNP happens when you suffer the wound. Basically you only get FNP on each models wounds.

[Mezkh]

Doesn't work with Corbulo either by the way.

 

Actually it works famously with Corbulo (and other 3+ save guys)

 

Saves are defined as: Armour, Cover and Invulnerable. So, yes- he can tank - take the hits, do his FNP and then LoS it as per same save allocation.

 

In the event of AP1/2 and 2xT weapons, you just LoS from the start.

 

It's poor use of Corbulo. If he fails that 2+ roll he's dead against a lot of common weaponry - the humble krak missile for a start. Then you've lost your FNP/FC bubble, reroll if unused, and all that Combat capability.

 

If you can guarantee you won't get shot by Str8+, maybe, but how rare is that?

 

Battlecannon? Free Corbulo kill.

 

In assault, tanking is more viable yeah. Still, I don't think you'll see more SS assault sarges than you did in 5th :/

[darth_giles]

again I reiterate, can we get some thoughts on tanking sergeants in combat? a 3++ against any power weapon or fist attacks that is for the whole squad sounds pretty good to me, provided the sergeant is in B2B.

I'd just as soon take a cheap BP/PW sergeant and have more marines. All this talk of death stars, and nobody's thinking about how they're going to claim enough objectives to win.

[wabbitrage]

again I reiterate, can we get some thoughts on tanking sergeants in combat? a 3++ against any power weapon or fist attacks that is for the whole squad sounds pretty good to me, provided the sergeant is in B2B.

 

against MEQ it probabbly gives you a few options against deathstars. Against cheap sergeants who don't buy PW or PF (dunno about anyone else but i'm more inclined to dual pistols) it wont be ideal as you'll only get to use your axe against 1 model due to challenges. Even in this case their sergeant gets his attacks first and could cause some /facepalm if he died to normal attacks. Best case scenrio he'll get lucky in cc and roll good on saves against a captain or chappy but since you're not going to carry the power fist (even though you're losing the +1 attack anyway) he wouldn't care they both got 4+ saves and several wounds.

 

Against guard squads it gets even worse

 

Against grey knights it depends on what the unit comp is. Stands a chance of doing pretty well though but i wouldn't get my hopes up.