Who are our deadliest enemies in 6th Edtion?

[Cmdr Shepard]

Greetimgs Battle Borthers,

 

I believe one of the best way to achieve victory on the battlefield is obviously knowing the strenght and weakness of our opponents.

 

6th Edition is still at its very early stages but the world wide community already played countless match so I think we have enough data to analyse the "threat level" of the armies we'll meet on the table.

 

So, which armies are the most dangerous opponents for our Space Marine (every codex counts :devil: ) in 6th.

 

I consider this one a sort of "collaborative" project so feel free to add whatever knowledge and/or experience you have gathered.

[greatcrusade08]

i feel necrons have to be the biggest threat to vehicles, whilst IG and tau gunlines got a second wind with this edition.

 

6th ed = dakka love

[rpnightsend]

i feel necrons have to be the biggest threat to vehicles, whilst IG and tau gunlines got a second wind with this edition.

 

6th ed = dakka love

I'm going to disagree a little with you on that. IMO 6th made every unit better at what it does. Assault got assaultier, shooting got shootier. For the first point, I direct your attention to Hammer of Wrath, Challenges (no more hidden power fists deterring terminators from charging scouts), Random Charge Range+Fleet (you usually end up with the same or better distance then if you'd run then charged).

 

I've seen some canny ork players doing well, especially with the random charge range. Stormboyz with zagstruk are horrifyingly powerful now, and their bikes still have that 4+ cover.

 

Dark Angels chew through a lot of MEQ's too, plasma spam bikes and Deathwing are tough to beat, at least as far as I've seen.

[greatcrusade08]

i think hammer of wrath is offset by overwatch though

[Cmdr Shepard]

Necron's Gauss Weaponery is the bane of vehicles. 20 rapid firing Necron Warriors will destroy a Land Raider in about a turn.

 

It does not matter what edition you are playing IG is always effective :D. They can field whatever they wish: from Flyers spam to infantry hordes.

 

I think Orks will be dangerous too. They cannot run and assault via Waagh! but now they can shoot our units, then re-roll for charge distance; no longer suffer additional wounds if they lose combat and if we charge them they shoot us back with just a -1 to their BS.

Lootas will destroy our flyers with ease. Still just a -1 to their BS.

 

Just my opinion on these enemies.

[Schultzhoffen]

Necrons (shooting , combat is NOT to be underestimated, flyers). Orks - numbers, CC (Ork Biker Nobs...nuff said) and shooting (!?). Daemons (CC, MC Flyers). Tau (the Terrible, Terrible Tau -NEVER underestimate the Tau in the hands of a skilled player). Grey Knights (say no more). Eldar (these can seriously ruin your day).

 

Point is all armies can be a threat to Marines depending on list/opponent.

 

C: Space Marines are a "middle of the road army". Wonderful in fluff but so so on the board -mediocre CC, slightly better shooting. They're solid but not wonderful (they have some good rules/weapons/units but are not to be overestimated, either). SW and BAs (and GKs) are the "go to" Marine armies if you want to do really well/have the tools for virtually any situation (esp in Tournaments).

 

Best thing to do with C:SM is to build a balanced list and play the mission.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm most scared of Imperial Guard bringing a solid army to chew through whilst also bombarding us with fire from multiple Vendettas. How am I going to deal with that without a serious amount of luck?

[Cmdr Shepard]

I'm most scared of Imperial Guard bringing a solid army to chew through whilst also bombarding us with fire from multiple Vendettas. How am I going to deal with that without a serious amount of luck?

Indeed. At 200 pts an IG won't have a lot of problems in putting 6-9 Vendattas on the table (well maybe 9 is a little too much :P )

But this not ends here: what about their extremely long range barrage weapons? Since the shot is considered coming from the center of the "blast" the closest model may not be the one we carefully placed on the unit's front.

Beside, if I remember correctly, according to the new terrain's rules you get a 4+ cover for being in a ruin only if the "walls" are between the "shooter" and the "target". If the shot originates from the center of the template the model is just in area terrain, thus it receives a 5+ cover save. Am I right?

 

Leman Russ may be a issue too. Those 20 S5 shots from Punisher can be deadly esepcially with Pask (BS4 plus +1 to armour pen) since they are able to threaten flyers too, provided they are within range of course.

 

Luckily there is no IG "prolification" at my local gaming community. I have several models I plan to use as allies for my SM/GK armies but I know I'll have a lot of trouble if I'll ever meet a IG army on the table.

 

It's very difficult to annihilate their scoring units too: they have so many models to deal with....

[spartan249]

I think 2 army types are going to be the biggest threats to a typical SM army.

 

1: Flyer heavy armies. Most marines only have access to either the Stormtalon or Stormraven, and those occupy one FA slot each. Broken Guard bring unholy amounts of fliers with blistering amounts of anti-AV weapons, and Nidzilla is probably going to come swooping back in the form of Flyrants/Harpies/whatever else they can throw wings on, and Daemons with flying DPs and greater daemons everywhere. We simply don't have the firepower to fight those kinds of lists yet, while they will trample all over us with near impunity.

 

2: Shooting specialist armies. With the boost to firepower and mobility on everyone, Shooting armies got the biggest boost to efficiency. We as generalists are going to struggle to close the distance to engage these armies where they are weak because they will have more chances to move away and fire. The inclusion of allies rubs salt into this wound because not all shooting specialist armies will have the glaring weakness they are supposed to have, thus closing the distance will not be the end of the fight like it was before.

 

As always, I think IG are still the top dog in this edition, and I'm predicting that most of the power gaming crowd will go for either main IG with varied allies or a Marine codex with allied IG.

[Grey Mage]

Eldar. Eldar make a living on killing marines with absolute certainty. And with Mechdar being less in the meta now than Footdar, youll see a huge return to those units that can kill marines quickly and without hassle because now Eldar players will have the points invested in things that kill you, instead of waveserpents.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I think 2 army types are going to be the biggest threats to a typical SM army.

 

1: Flyer heavy armies. Most marines only have access to either the Stormtalon or Stormraven, and those occupy one FA slot each. Broken Guard bring unholy amounts of fliers with blistering amounts of anti-AV weapons, and Nidzilla is probably going to come swooping back in the form of Flyrants/Harpies/whatever else they can throw wings on, and Daemons with flying DPs and greater daemons everywhere. We simply don't have the firepower to fight those kinds of lists yet, while they will trample all over us with near impunity.

 

2: Shooting specialist armies. With the boost to firepower and mobility on everyone, Shooting armies got the biggest boost to efficiency. We as generalists are going to struggle to close the distance to engage these armies where they are weak because they will have more chances to move away and fire. The inclusion of allies rubs salt into this wound because not all shooting specialist armies will have the glaring weakness they are supposed to have, thus closing the distance will not be the end of the fight like it was before.

 

As always, I think IG are still the top dog in this edition, and I'm predicting that most of the power gaming crowd will go for either main IG with varied allies or a Marine codex with allied IG.

 

IG Vendettas-spam armies will be scary indeed. They can field flyers in a 3:1 ratio and they are extremely qualfied in destroying Marine flyers. 3 TL Lascannon each can hurt. I haven't foud a way to counter them,yet. Even though we can kill one of the per SM flyer we can destroy max 3 per turn and they will bring some of our flyers down in the process and sice IG field flyers in squadron will get a single victory point (assuming we kill all three of the them) while they get 1 VP for each of ours.

 

Daemons Flying Circus is another annoying army for us. I know we can ground them but they will retain their own invul save and with their movement they can close distance fast and then assault where we cannot shoot them.

 

I'm mainly a Space Marine player (from nearly every codex ;) ) but those two armies are a little tempting. :)

 

Anyway I plan to ally my SM with some IG models, just to try out the new allies rules but I know I couldn't counter the IG flyers spam list with ease. Luckily IG players are a rarity in my gaming community ;)

[Jupiter]

Eldar. Eldar make a living on killing marines with absolute certainty. And with Mechdar being less in the meta now than Footdar, youll see a huge return to those units that can kill marines quickly and without hassle because now Eldar players will have the points invested in things that kill you, instead of waveserpents.

 

Respectfully going to disagree here; my main opponent is Eldar (played 4 games against him in 6th so far and countless in 5th) and his list is about as anti-MEQ as eldar can get (dark reapers, tarpitting farseer + dire avengers, banshees [before 6th nerfed them], you get the pitcture). I've found them much easier to deal with in 6th, and I think it might have to do with the new BGB missions. For the new FA/HS scoring missions, many of their choices there are frankly fragile enough to rack up VPs quickly. Also, fleet, having been nerfed, allows you a little more room for comfort when getting inside their danger zone.

 

However, when facing eldar with C:SM in 6th, I'd suggest the following:

-They're much more mobile (48" on jetbikes :lol:??). Don't even think about playing aggressively against them unless the mission dictates you do.

-Focus your shooting on the things that WILL kill you asap (dark reapers, FIRE DRAGONS!! etc), then worry about the other stuff.

 

My only really awful experience against eldar in 6th was trying to clear out a backfield objective in ruins held by pathfinders (now surprisingly more effective with the sniper buff) and reapers. I had nothing to get in close, not even a single HF speeder (as I was being outmanouvered by the rest of his force) and I threw an ungodly amount of firepower at the rangers. I think I killed 1 all game. :D

[Captain Idaho]

I agree; chasing Eldar will allow them to split you up, limit your ability to reach out and touch him (i.e. firepower) and frustrate you to the edge of sanity!

 

The best way I've found to hurt Eldar is to force them to come to us. Their range is fairly short, so hitting them at range will force them to come to you. If you plan for certain objectives with your force whilst hitting the opponent's list hard, the Eldar player will have to step into the meat grinder and take losses. Once taking losses, the Eldar player will then lose mobility and get bogged down, thus granting you the chance to turn them over.

 

Of course, Eldar are devious and their players are often competetant. I've ALWAYS struggled against Eldar, getting mostly draws against them. However, the best results I've ever had have come from forcing the opponent to come to me. My last game against the evil Eldar (with victory to either of us resulting in a tournament prize placing) ended in a draw because I was unlucky and he was lucky at the end and snatched a draw, but I had the advantage initially because I hit him with firepower at range and forced him to come to me.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I agree; chasing Eldar will allow them to split you up, limit your ability to reach out and touch him (i.e. firepower) and frustrate you to the edge of sanity!

 

The best way I've found to hurt Eldar is to force them to come to us. Their range is fairly short, so hitting them at range will force them to come to you. If you plan for certain objectives with your force whilst hitting the opponent's list hard, the Eldar player will have to step into the meat grinder and take losses. Once taking losses, the Eldar player will then lose mobility and get bogged down, thus granting you the chance to turn them over.

 

Of course, Eldar are devious and their players are often competetant. I've ALWAYS struggled against Eldar, getting mostly draws against them. However, the best results I've ever had have come from forcing the opponent to come to me. My last game against the evil Eldar (with victory to either of us resulting in a tournament prize placing) ended in a draw because I was unlucky and he was lucky at the end and snatched a draw, but I had the advantage initially because I hit him with firepower at range and forced him to come to me.

 

That's the best anti-Eldar tactic for SM armies. I suppose those armies with a lot of Flying MC may opt to come "close and personal" with Eldar in two turn and their are "squishy" in CC; not to mention they don't to have And They Shall Know No Fear to save them from a lost assault (they have high I, though)

For us SM the one you posted is a very effective strategy.

We "out-range" them with several powerful weapons.

[Voloch]

I don't believe flyers to be that big a probelm. First, they either need to fly around at zoom speed which means that in order for them to bring their weapons to point, they need to fly very close to your units. That means assault cannons, autocannons (and even bolters at the low armoured ones) can be a big hurt to them. And if they are able and choose to hover, just unload your entire load ... army at them if you feel that threatened. Otherwise I believe we will see many in ongoing reserve as they need to fly off the board if they don't want to stay in small arms range.

Then we have the missile launcher which has been upgraded to include Flakk shells. 5man dev with 4xMLs (sounds like 5th ed standard load-out) has a very good chance to kill them. Even the Dreadhunter with it's ML and TL-LC is a big threat.

Lastly there's the scouts. 85pts for an ML + 4 sniper rounds. Agreed, they are worse at hitting but you field 2 units at the same cost as a tac squad with only one ML. Plus the sniper rounds are deadly also coz of the flyer's relatively low armour.

 

I see armies far worse off against flyers than marines. My Land Raiders have already downed 2 games x 2 necron flyers with ease.

[The Emperor's Champion]

I'm gonna have to toss in my lot with the Necrons, possibly because I'm more aware of exactly what they can do and am only loosely aware of what others can do. But given what I know I can do with Necrons.....I just don't know any army that seems that deadly.

Grey Knights and Space Wolves, maybe, but those are Marines...

 

There's no other army that can conjure a weapon quite like an auto-hit Template that wounds on a 2+ and has AP1.

or S10 AP1 10.5"(average of 3D6) long lines of death that can be fired into melee fired from a Flyer.

or a squad of Jump Infantry with a load of Rending(S6 WS4 up to 24 Attacks) & Warscythe attacks (S7 AP2 WS4 up to 4 Attacks) that reroll all 1's to hit and wound, and reduce your Initiative to 1, and Mindshackle Scarabs...

and basic infantry that can slaughter Land Raiders in one turn with a little luck, and aren't even the most powerful anti-tank weapon in the army by a long shot...

and they can force you to get into range of their guns or be unable to shoot them.

and they can force your whole army to have to move through Difficult and/or Dangerous Terrain.

and

and

and

 

 

I dunno. I consider myself extremely well versed in Space Marine tactics and feel like I have a good/fair chance in a game against most armies with my Ultramarines, but the more I learn about my Necrons.....I just dunno.

I don't think I could beat a good Necron army without some serious luck. They just have so many units that can cause almost guaranteed mass destruction each turn that I'm not sure they couldn't just cripple most Marine armies before they even have a chance to do anything about it.

[King Willy]

I'm far more afraid of Lemen russes then eldar, my meta dosn't really have a lot of eldar, plenty of DE but not many Craftworlders.

 

But Mech Guard lists were so common in 5th that they still dominate my local tables, sure vehicles a are bit easier to kill depending on your army but the loss of a chimera is still nothing in the grand scheme of a guard players plan. But the Plasma Russ is now everywere and annoys the ;) out of me with the whole hole thing.

[Lucien Eilam]

Then we have the missile launcher which has been upgraded to include Flakk shells. 5man dev with 4xMLs (sounds like 5th ed standard load-out) has a very good chance to kill them. Even the Dreadhunter with it's ML and TL-LC is a big threat.

Lastly there's the scouts. 85pts for an ML + 4 sniper rounds. Agreed, they are worse at hitting but you field 2 units at the same cost as a tac squad with only one ML. Plus the sniper rounds are deadly also coz of the flyer's relatively low armour.

 

Nobody gets flakk missiles yet. It will be a paid upgrade in future Codexes.

 

It's not surprising you're finding Flyers weak if you're giving it to every missile launcher for free.

[DerekLee688]

I'm far more afraid of Lemen russes then eldar, my meta dosn't really have a lot of eldar, plenty of DE but not many Craftworlders.

 

But Mech Guard lists were so common in 5th that they still dominate my local tables, sure vehicles a are bit easier to kill depending on your army but the loss of a chimera is still nothing in the grand scheme of a guard players plan. But the Plasma Russ is now everywere and annoys the :) out of me with the whole hole thing.

 

Don't Plasma russ make get hot rolls now? Not good odds for a single tank getting hot, but if you play them often then I'd imagine one will over heat sooner or later.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I'm far more afraid of Lemen russes then eldar, my meta dosn't really have a lot of eldar, plenty of DE but not many Craftworlders.

 

But Mech Guard lists were so common in 5th that they still dominate my local tables, sure vehicles a are bit easier to kill depending on your army but the loss of a chimera is still nothing in the grand scheme of a guard players plan. But the Plasma Russ is now everywere and annoys the ;) out of me with the whole hole thing.

 

Don't Plasma russ make get hot rolls now? Not good odds for a single tank getting hot, but if you play them often then I'd imagine one will over heat sooner or later.

 

Plasma Cannons on sponsons, yes ; Executioner plasma cannon (the 3 shots plasma cannon), no.

[Ricter]

I'm gonna have to toss in my lot with the Necrons, possibly because I'm more aware of exactly what they can do and am only loosely aware of what others can do. But given what I know I can do with Necrons.....I just don't know any army that seems that deadly.

Grey Knights and Space Wolves, maybe, but those are Marines...

 

There's no other army that can conjure a weapon quite like an auto-hit Template that wounds on a 2+ and has AP1.

or S10 AP1 10.5"(average of 3D6) long lines of death that can be fired into melee fired from a Flyer.

or a squad of Jump Infantry with a load of Rending(S6 WS4 up to 24 Attacks) & Warscythe attacks (S7 AP2 WS4 up to 4 Attacks) that reroll all 1's to hit and wound, and reduce your Initiative to 1, and Mindshackle Scarabs...

and basic infantry that can slaughter Land Raiders in one turn with a little luck, and aren't even the most powerful anti-tank weapon in the army by a long shot...

and they can force you to get into range of their guns or be unable to shoot them.

and they can force your whole army to have to move through Difficult and/or Dangerous Terrain.

and

and

and

 

 

I dunno. I consider myself extremely well versed in Space Marine tactics and feel like I have a good/fair chance in a game against most armies with my Ultramarines, but the more I learn about my Necrons.....I just dunno.

I don't think I could beat a good Necron army without some serious luck. They just have so many units that can cause almost guaranteed mass destruction each turn that I'm not sure they couldn't just cripple most Marine armies before they even have a chance to do anything about it.

 

This. Necrons will be the new army to beat in this edition - their codex was very much designed for it. The issue is even worse for us - one of their biggest weaknesses (which isn't very big comparatively, but that aside) is dealing with large units in their typical competitive list. We have none of these.

[Axagoras]

This. Necrons will be the new army to beat in this edition - their codex was very much designed for it. The issue is even worse for us - one of their biggest weaknesses (which isn't very big comparatively, but that aside) is dealing with large units in their typical competitive list. We have none of these.

10 immortals will shred boys and guard hordes, even fire warriors and storm troopers get no saves vs it. they have ways to deal with it.

[Ricter]

This. Necrons will be the new army to beat in this edition - their codex was very much designed for it. The issue is even worse for us - one of their biggest weaknesses (which isn't very big comparatively, but that aside) is dealing with large units in their typical competitive list. We have none of these.

10 immortals will shred boys and guard hordes, even fire warriors and storm troopers get no saves vs it. they have ways to deal with it.

 

Of course, every army does. But immortals are expensive, have difficulty in moving around, aren't super tough and their targets will likely have cover. Necrons (generally) just don't have the same volume of shots or number of big templates that other shooting lists do, especially outside 24".

 

With their 'standard' (as much as you can use that word this early) competitive army lists, they'd rather fight something with less models due to their amount of AP3 or better.

 

A lot of this has to be taken with a grain of salt... the second round of FAQs, first round of big tournaments and just time in general will tell us what the stronger lists are.

[ShinyRhino]

I'm far more afraid of Lemen russes then eldar, my meta dosn't really have a lot of eldar, plenty of DE but not many Craftworlders.

 

But Mech Guard lists were so common in 5th that they still dominate my local tables, sure vehicles a are bit easier to kill depending on your army but the loss of a chimera is still nothing in the grand scheme of a guard players plan. But the Plasma Russ is now everywere and annoys the :eek out of me with the whole hole thing.

 

Hole thing? You mean wound allocation based on location of the hole in the blast marker? That's only for Barrage weapons, isn't it? Plasma cannons definitely are not Barrage weapons.

[The Emperor's Champion]

This. Necrons will be the new army to beat in this edition - their codex was very much designed for it. The issue is even worse for us - one of their biggest weaknesses (which isn't very big comparatively, but that aside) is dealing with large units in their typical competitive list. We have none of these.

10 immortals will shred boys and guard hordes, even fire warriors and storm troopers get no saves vs it. they have ways to deal with it.

 

Of course, every army does. But immortals are expensive, have difficulty in moving around, aren't super tough and their targets will likely have cover. Necrons (generally) just don't have the same volume of shots or number of big templates that other shooting lists do, especially outside 24".

 

With their 'standard' (as much as you can use that word this early) competitive army lists, they'd rather fight something with less models due to their amount of AP3 or better.

 

A lot of this has to be taken with a grain of salt... the second round of FAQs, first round of big tournaments and just time in general will tell us what the stronger lists are.

Wait, a squad that is twice as hard to kill as Space Marines, has more powerful weapons, has the fastest method of transportation in the game, and only costs 10ish more pts than a Tactical Squad of the same size is expensive, aren't tough and have a hard time moving??? :eek

 

These words that you are using, I don't think they mean what you think they mean.