Primarch Role(S)?

[Morningstar317]

I've been re-reading the novels & seen a quirk/question. The Primarchs are the generals of their respective legions & have :

- according to Prospero Burns different "wyrd's"

- Deliverance Lost - their Daddy has homes waiting

- The First Heretic - different destiny's

- A Thousand Sons - the golden throne awaiting Magnus

 

These all seem to relate to their personalities/characteristics, but I'm struggling to understand the relationships; for example Sanguinius, what's his other purpose? And the the flit-side; Daddy's (Emperor) juxtapositional nature?

What are other thoughts?

[Perrin]

I'm guessing you mean roles after the Heresy has ended? Sanguinius could have been a poster boy of some kind, all of the other Primarchs seemed to love him, it's probably likely he would be loved by the ordinary Imperial Citizens too.

The Night Lords would have made a decent police force had the Night Haunter not been a little crazy, and if the Legion had stayed clean of murders and rapists.

The Ultramarines seem like they would make good civil servants, but it doesnt really seem worth all the resources needed to create a space marine, just for them to do the job an ordinary human could. I think all of the Legions would have been downsized anyway.

 

Personally though i don't think the Great Crusade would ever have ended if not for the Heresy. The Emperor manages to direct the Astronomican throughout the first hundred or so years of the Great Crusade while he is out fighting, so he could have built another Astronomican somewhere near the edge of the Imperium to give the Crusade forces more area to conquer. Or he could have just finished the Webway, turning the Crusade into a Stargate crossover.

[Legatus]

The Primarchs were not really created with specific traits, or with specific intended purposes. That is just a cute way of categorizing them and assigning meaning and deliberation to their different personas. However, in a lot of cases their persona was shaped by the world they grew up on, and many of their marked traits were the result of Chaos tinkering with the gene-seed inside the incubator capsules.

 

The Emperor did not create Sanguinius with wings. THat was the work of Chaos. The Emperor did not create a red skinned one eyed giant, and he did not instill in him a curiosity for the arcane. That was all Chaos. The Emperor did nto intend for Guilliman to grow up on Macragge, or for Jonson to grow up on Caliban, or for Leman Russ to grow up on Fenris. A lot of how the Primarchs turned out was the result of Chaos tinkering with the gene-seed and then scattering the capsules accross the galaxy in frustration that they could not outright destroy them.

[Perrin]

The Primarchs were not really created with specific traits, or with specific intended purposes. That is just a cute way of categorizing them and assigning meaning and deliberation to their different personas. However, in a lot of cases their persona was shaped by the world they grew up on, and many of their marked traits were the result of Chaos tinkering with the gene-seed inside the incubator capsules.

 

The Emperor did not create Sanguinius with wings. THat was the work of Chaos. The Emperor did not create a red skinned one eyed giant, and he did not instill in him a curiosity for the arcane. That was all Chaos. The Emperor did nto intend for Guilliman to grow up on Macragge, or for Jonson to grow up on Caliban, or for Leman Russ to grow up on Fenris. A lot of how the Primarchs turned out was the result of Chaos tinkering with the gene-seed and then scattering the capsules accross the galaxy in frustration that they could not outright destroy them.

 

Even though that part does sound likely, I've never read it anywhere, which source is it from?

[Legatus]

Even though that part does sound likely, I've never read it anywhere, which source is it from?

It's in the current Codex Blood Angels, for example:

"The forces of Chaos made off with the infants and carried them through the Warp. Unable to destroy the Primarchs because of the powerful protections laid on them by the Emperor, the daemonic powers nonetheless did their best to alter and mould the Emperor's work to their own evil ends."

(5th Edition Codex Blood Angels, p. 10)

It had been described in the 2nd Edition Codex Angels of Death as well, both in the Dark Angels background (p. 10) and in the Blood Angels section (p. 18). The latter description being repeated in the 5th Edition Codex Blood Angels.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

The Primarchs where created to be generals, to lead their legions into the night and bring the light of mankind to the galaxy.

 

Their various backgrounds and upbringings created individual traits that where then used and purposed. I don't think the Emperor created the Primarchs to fill certain roles but on discovering them he did plan accordingly.

 

I doubt he created Magnus to fill in for him on the golden throne but when he discovered magnus' power and abilities he saw a use for him.

 

Russ was not created to be the Emperor's executioner but Russ and his legion turned outto be best suited so tey where given the job.

[MadDoc]

I love how all of the Primarchs most unusual (or defining) attributes are seemingly being dismissed as/attributed to Warp contamination by some people, all the while blithely ignoring the engineered traits ascribed to each of the sets of Primarch data in Deliverance Lost. :)

 

I'm not sure whether I should consider it funny, or just plain sad.

[Legatus]

I love how all of the Primarchs most unusual (or defining) attributes are seemingly being dismissed as/attributed to Warp contamination by some people, all the while blithely ignoring the engineered traits ascribed to each of the sets of Primarch data in Deliverance Lost.

My problem is that I have read about how some of the Primarchs have been affected and altered by Chaos since 2nd Edition, so it is a bit difficult for me to suddenly ignore all that because a Horus Heresy novel comes up with another explanation.

 

"Legend goes on to tell how the Dark Gods of Chaos spirited away the Primarchs within their incubator capsules, scattering them widely throughout the warp. More than one of the capsules was breached whilst it drifted through warp space. The forces of the warp leaked in wreaking havoc in the developing genetic material inside the capsule. Undoubtedly damage was done, although the nature of that damage would only become apparent during the Horus Heresy."

(2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 11; or 5th Edition Codex Space Marines, p. 12)

"Unable to destroy the infants because of the powerful protections laid down on them by the Emperor, the daemonic powers of the warp nonetheless did their best to alter and mould the Emperor's work to their own evil ends. Thus it was that even the best of the Emperor's creations became corrupted at the outset.

The pod that housed the infant Sanguinius came to rest upon the surface of Baal Secundus, at the place now known as Angel's Fall. The infant Primarch was found by one of the wandering tribes of humans who called themselves the Folk of Pure Blood, or simply the Blood. The young Sanguinius's life almost came to an end then and there, for the touch of Chaos had changed him. Tiny vestigial wings, like those of an angel, emerged from his back."

(2nd Edition Codex Angels of Death, p. 18; or 5th Edition Codex Blood Angels, p. 10)

"Magnus was a ruddy-haired and extremely large Primarch with a single eye set deep in his broad forehead. Because of this he was sometimes known as Cyclopean Magnus or the Red Cyclops. The truth was that his soul had already been touched by Chaos, and Tzeentch insinuated into him a fascination with the occult forces of the warp and the secrets that lay within his fabric."

(2nd Edition Codex Chaos, p. 17)

"Magnus was unquestionably the most profoundly mutated of the Emperor's Primarchs, both physically and psychically, and the Legion imprinted with his gene-seed reflected that with a high percentage of Thousand Sons manifesting some level of psychic ability. Early in the Legion's history a small, but significant percentage were prone to physical mutation, but in the wake of falling thrall to Tzeentch that percentage escalated wildly."

(3nd Index Astartes Thousand Sons, 'Gene-seed')

So, sorry that I am not willing to just throw out two decades of established background just because some Black Library author decided to spin his own little tale.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

So, sorry that I am not willing to just throw out two decades of established background just because some Black Library author decided to spin his own little tale.

 

i think you need to understand that that the "little tale" being spun is not the work of one author writing for kicks (or a paycheck), but rather the BL team working together with the full permission and "authority" of Games Workshop. Its their universe, and they can do with it what they see fit.

 

so frankly, you can ignore whatever bits you'd like (as A D-B says, there is non canon after all) but everybody else isnt wrong because your outdated and often re-written sources says so.

 

(and to be honest, i have damn near every codex release from 2-6 edition, so i get your frustration. doesnt make it right though.)

 

WLK

[Legatus]

I intentionally added both the citations for the 2nd Edition source as well as the citations for the current 5th Edition source, because I know that some people have an unexplained aversion against 2nd Edition sources. Of course, one thing that those dual-sources highlight is that the background isn't rewritten quite as often as some people make it out to be. The background has stayed fairly consistent from 2nd to 5th Edition, with several 5th Edition Codices copying long passages directly from the 2nd Edition Codices. There were some retcons introduced in the 5th Edition Codices, though.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I intentionally added both the citations for the 2nd Edition source as well as the citations for the current 5th Edition source, because I know that some people have an unexplained aversion against 2nd Edition sources. Of course, one thing that those dual-sources highlight is that the background isn't rewritten quite as often as some people make it out to be. The background has stayed fairly consistent from 2nd to 5th Edition, with several 5th Edition Codices copying long passages directly from the 2nd Edition Codices. There were some retcons introduced in the 5th Edition Codices, though.

 

Disliking 2nd sources is plain silly, because 3rd ed codexs did away with almost all the fluff. If it wasnt for the Index Astartes articles (i miss those), then 3rd eds fluff would have been non-existant. (which is why i started in 3rd ed, but hunted for the 2nd ed sources whenever possible. the amount of background there is AWESOME)

 

and yes, you have a point where the background isnt dramatically changed, but the problem i see is this: the codexes (codici? whatever...) have to balance enough background, pretty pictures and rules to entince new gamers to pick up the product at a justifable price (and thats a whole other arguement nowadays...). SO things arent always shown in the greatest depths possible in the codex, because of space limitations. here is where the BL picks up the slack, and shines a light into what otherwise wouldnt be seen. they can go into details of how things work, how Marines operate, the history and so on.

 

so, as i see it, you cling to one source so strongly, yet utterly refuse the continuation of that material is somewhat odd. you post and discuss things that make sense to you, but outright dismiss things that dont fit in your point of view (like the RG sneaky factor in the other thread).

 

WLK

[Legatus]

so, as i see it, you cling to one source so strongly, yet utterly refuse the continuation of that material is somewhat odd. you post and discuss things that make sense to you, but outright dismiss things that dont fit in your point of view (like the RG sneaky factor in the other thread).

I dunno, I tend to have issues with rewrites, more than with mere expansion of existing material. And I often make a case for why the 40k source books should always taken as precedence over Black Library material. One argument is availability (a Codex is sold everywhere were the game is being distributed, Black Library material is not), another is purpose (the background in a Codex is supposed to inform about the chosen faction, a Black Library story is supposed to entertain). If one bought a Codex but the background description in that Codex was "incorrect", then one would not get what one payed for (or at least part of what one payed for). If one bought a novel and the description in it was "incorrect", it can still be entertaining to read. The goal should be to prevent the former rather than the latter.

[Gree]

so, as i see it, you cling to one source so strongly, yet utterly refuse the continuation of that material is somewhat odd. you post and discuss things that make sense to you, but outright dismiss things that dont fit in your point of view (like the RG sneaky factor in the other thread).

 

Yes, because the sourcebooks never have any bad fluff or silly stuff in them.

[Marshal Rohr]

The space wolves having canine DNA means the were specifically designed to serve as pets post great crusade? The Iron Warriors being tougher means they were going to be beat up?

 

The genetic engineering used in the creation process had no effect on the roles each Primarch had, simply because no Primarch had a predetermined role. So this argument is pointless since everyone is right about what they are talking about.

[MadDoc]

I love how all of the Primarchs most unusual (or defining) attributes are seemingly being dismissed as/attributed to Warp contamination by some people, all the while blithely ignoring the engineered traits ascribed to each of the sets of Primarch data in Deliverance Lost.

My problem is that I have read about how some of the Primarchs have been affected and altered by Chaos since 2nd Edition, so it is a bit difficult for me to suddenly ignore all that because a Horus Heresy novel comes up with another explanation.

 

SNIP

 

So, sorry that I am not willing to just throw out two decades of established background just because some Black Library author decided to spin his own little tale.

None of which justifies ignoring any relevant information, and despite your obvious dislike for the Heresy series it is a valid source of information (with the full backing and control of the GW IP department).

 

Also, in spite of what your reaction might suggest, I did not even once slag off/deride your sources, I simply pointed out the rather myopic and "selective" approach some people seem to be taking to the issue in this thread. Clearly in doing so I hit a nerve.

[Marshal Rohr]

Legatus isn't getting on your case MadDoc. He can be counted on to provide 'original' information. Posters taking that as condescension or combativeness need to realize he is simply offering a 'reasonable opposition' in discussions involving the HH series, as is his right. You've been around long enough to know he isn't going to say his way is right and the new way is wrong, he simply prefers the older material.

[Aegnor]

*sigh* So many variations of this thread, and so many variations of the "I like the fluff from 2nd Ed/Index Astartes and hate that they've changed it" arguments.

 

I'm in the "reducing/pigeon-holing any primarch down to a single trait/tendency/application is a poor use of such an interesting character" camp. We don't know what the Emperor intended, beyond them being the lords of his forces to conquer the galaxy. Whatever he originally intended, those plans were radically altered once the Primarchs were scattered/touched by Chaos. Everyone we've heard talking about what those plans are - in the Heresy series or anywhere else - is simply surmising what they understand the Emperor's plans to have been. With this, we have to note that the Emperor's plans on a broad scale defy understanding by any other member of the human race - Malcador probably understands the most, but I don't think he knows it all. The primarchs certainly don't, and each of them seems to have received a different level of information. Horus being the most conversant with the Emperor's plans makes sense, and notably he said that the Primarch's had different personalities/strengths NOT that they were intended for different purposes. In Prospero Burns, we get the speculation of an Astartes that Russ doesn't disagree with, but doesn't explicitly confirm either. In Deliverance Lost, we get a perplexed apothecary who admits he's way in over his head noting some things he thinks he has puzzled out regarding the geneseed and Corax reacting to that.

 

It makes sense the Emperor might try some different things with the Primarchs, rather than creating 20 carbon copy clones - variety gives flexibility and strength. That he sat there saying "I'll need a siege specialist. Hmmm, maybe I'll need a guy who's good at psyker stuff. Whatabout a mechanically inclined dude? Ooh ooh, better not forget an executioner" seems extremely unlikely. What his original intentions were for them, we'll never know.

[Legatus]

Perhaps I am being a bit unfair to the notion that The Emperor created the Primarchs each with unique traits and for a special purpose. It is possible that he did not create 20 identical models. However, we know of a lot of Primarchs that the way they turned out was explicitely a result of where and how they grew up, or of being altered by Chaos when they had been inside the incubator capsules. For a lot of Primarchs it is described in detail in their background that that was the case. Sanguinius' wings were a Chaos mutation, as was Magnus' size and his single eye. His thirst for knowledge was explicitely instilled into him by Tzeentch. Jonson was reclusive because of growing up alone in the forest among beasts. Guilliman was raised by a noble statesman and educated by the best academies of his world. The Emperor certainly did not create Curze with nightmarish visions of the future, and he was only so ruthless because he grew up in the slums of a crime infested world. Angron was raised in an arena, and his slavers had implanted a device into his brain that would cause his bloodthirst. Curiously enough, the Space Wolves sources do not mention that the Primarchs' genetic structure had been affected by Chaos to explain their unique attributes, and instead states that the Emperor created the Primarchs with different traits. But I have doubts that the Emperor intentionally created gene-seed that was prone to turn the Marines into werewolves.

 

So, for most Primarchs, their character traits or their unique physical traits are described as the result of their upbringing or as something that was caused by Chaos altering the gene-seed. Thus I feel that any novel or source that looks at the different traits of the Primarchs and then explains that it was all meant to be and intentionally orchestrated by the Emperor is completely oblivious of their actual origin. The Emperor did not make Guilliman into a scholarly philosopher-king. He did not make Angron a raging berserker. He did not make Jonson an introvert. He did not make Vulkan a tenacious master smith. Any "fluff" that suggests that is ill conceived in my view. I suppose the sources could say "the Emperor created each Primarch with unique traits, but due to their upbringing and the influence of dark forces they turned out completely different". But that is not what the sources say, is it?

[Morningstar317]

Whilst I agree that the touch of Chaos and their upbringings had an influence, the Emperor did create 20 individuals and not 20 clones. One aspect that is also worth noting about them, their Geneseed; some of the key charactors are Terran and created from their respective primach's geneseed before their found. The quick examples that spring to mind are:

-Longfang of the Space Wolves - The Runepriest from Prospero Burns

-Ahriman of the Thousand sons

-Khârn of the World Eaters (admittedly weak due to cranial implants)

-Typhus of the Death Guard - in The Primarchs, it mentions his status as a librarian of the Dusk Raiders

 

 

Whilst I agree that the touch of Chaos and their upbringings had an influence, the Emperor did create 20 individuals and not 20 clones. One aspect that is also worth noting about them, their Geneseed; some of the key charactors are Terran and created from their respective primach's geneseed before their found. The quick examples that spring to mind are:

-Longfang of the Space Wolves - The Runepriest from Prospero Burns

-Ahriman of the Thousand sons

-Khârn of the World Eaters (admittedly weak due to cranial implants)

-Typhus of the Death Guard - in The Primarchs, it mentions his status as a librarian of the Dusk Raiders

[Conn Eremon]

Perhaps I am being a bit unfair to the notion that The Emperor created the Primarchs each with unique traits and for a special purpose. It is possible that he did not create 20 identical models. However, we know of a lot of Primarchs that the way they turned out was explicitely a result of where and how they grew up, or of being altered by Chaos when they had been inside the incubator capsules. For a lot of Primarchs it is described in detail in their background that that was the case. Sanguinius' wings were a Chaos mutation, as was Magnus' size and his single eye. His thirst for knowledge was explicitely instilled into him by Tzeentch. Jonson was reclusive because of growing up alone in the forest among beasts. Guilliman was raised by a noble statesman and educated by the best academies of his world. The Emperor certainly did not create Curze with nightmarish visions of the future, and he was only so ruthless because he grew up in the slums of a crime infested world. Angron was raised in an arena, and his slavers had implanted a device into his brain that would cause his bloodthirst. Curiously enough, the Space Wolves sources do not mention that the Primarchs' genetic structure had been affected by Chaos to explain their unique attributes, and instead states that the Emperor created the Primarchs with different traits. But I have doubts that the Emperor intentionally created gene-seed that was prone to turn the Marines into werewolves.

 

So, for most Primarchs, their character traits or their unique physical traits are described as the result of their upbringing or as something that was caused by Chaos altering the gene-seed. Thus I feel that any novel or source that looks at the different traits of the Primarchs and then explains that it was all meant to be and intentionally orchestrated by the Emperor is completely oblivious of their actual origin. The Emperor did not make Guilliman into a scholarly philosopher-king. He did not make Angron a raging berserker. He did not make Jonson an introvert. He did not make Vulkan a tenacious master smith. Any "fluff" that suggests that is ill conceived in my view. I suppose the sources could say "the Emperor created each Primarch with unique traits, but due to their upbringing and the influence of dark forces they turned out completely different". But that is not what the sources say, is it?

 

I think the issue is moderation. That the Emperor designed the Primarchs uniquely, and therefore perhaps with certain intentions, is now undeniably in canon (insofar as 40k canon goes, and of course everyone can have their own version). This does not mean that it is the sole cause and explanation for the Primarchs and their behavior. Just as their homeworlds are not, or their relationships with their brothers and father were not. They are, however, major components to the final picture. Or at least those components that have been made the most visible to us. To say they are the sole cause is as silly as saying they have no relation. If Leman Russ was designed to intentionally have canine genetic traits, it could help to explain the animalistic fervor he is known for, augmented by the warrior societies of his homeworld. He's not wolfish solely because of the canine traits, but they could be a factor in that conclusion. It could explain why the mother wolf took the baby Russ in, if nothing else. Perturabo is known to be deficient in certain things (so vague, but I don't remember the specifics or names) which are known by us in the present day to be part of the reason why our bodies reject foreign material, such as grafts or replacements. Being deficient means his body is more capable of being bionically 'enhanced' but it also causes psychological issues around one's sense of self. These could certainly be factors in a lot of things we know about Perturabo. His mechanical bent, similar to that of Ferrus Manus, and an ego that seems to more easily take hits than other Primarchs. That sort of base, combined with his childhood and the influence of his Legion and the Great Crusade's course, could easily have created the Perturabo we all know and love/hate.

 

So the idea that the Emperor created the Primarchs with certain intentions doesn't necessarily mean that every single aspect of the Primarchs were predetermined at their creation, with all their faults and glories. Creating Leman Russ with some canine traits doesn't mean he wanted a Viking Werewolf. Or a Legion of Werewolf Vikings, since the Legions were supposedly created after the Primarchs were taken, in response to their taking, and as such weren't even a factor during the Primarch creation, no?

 

With what we know now, I think it's entirely in the realm of possibility that the Primarchs could have fulfilled certain roles had the Emperor's plans come to fruition, without Chaos' intervention. But whatever the Emperor's intentions, Chaos did intervene, and that intervention had a profound impact on the Primarchs. And we have no idea which was the most influential, though we could perhaps guess. Maybe the Emperor did want a Primarch with berserker fury, as a weapon to unleash upon the harshest of foes. Or maybe he had intentions entirely divorced from that, and the intervention of Chaos that led Angron to be captured and enslaved to gladiatorial combat over-rode whatever the Emperor had intended. Maybe his reaction to seeing Angron for the first time, that of teleporting him off the world and just tossing him into the darkened hold of a Legionary ship, was because he looked down upon a Primarch that was completely and utterly not what he had wanted.

 

Anyway, I'm not sure if this would convince you, but I'm not writing this to do that. I just tend to see the most extremes of reactions to that addition to the fluff, and I feel a more moderate approach to it is the likelier. I see either flat-out refusals or I see people holding it up as their defining truth. Myself, I just see it as one more factor added into the mix.

[MadDoc]

Perhaps I am being a bit unfair to the notion that The Emperor created the Primarchs each with unique traits and for a special purpose. It is possible that he did not create 20 identical models. However, we know of a lot of Primarchs that the way they turned out was explicitely a result of where and how they grew up, or of being altered by Chaos when they had been inside the incubator capsules. For a lot of Primarchs it is described in detail in their background that that was the case. Sanguinius' wings were a Chaos mutation, as was Magnus' size and his single eye. His thirst for knowledge was explicitely instilled into him by Tzeentch. Jonson was reclusive because of growing up alone in the forest among beasts. Guilliman was raised by a noble statesman and educated by the best academies of his world. The Emperor certainly did not create Curze with nightmarish visions of the future, and he was only so ruthless because he grew up in the slums of a crime infested world. Angron was raised in an arena, and his slavers had implanted a device into his brain that would cause his bloodthirst. Curiously enough, the Space Wolves sources do not mention that the Primarchs' genetic structure had been affected by Chaos to explain their unique attributes, and instead states that the Emperor created the Primarchs with different traits. But I have doubts that the Emperor intentionally created gene-seed that was prone to turn the Marines into werewolves.

You having doubts about it, means diddly when we have an official source (vetted by the IP gurus at GW) which states that amongst the Primarch data is a sample that includes canid/lupine DNA.

 

Based on this post alone you seem to be displaying a profound lack of knowledge about a source you were, none-the-less, quick to dismiss. If you aren't familiar with the source just say so, don't compound things by misrepresenting what it actually says (regardless of whether that is a result of ignorance or malice).

 

So, for most Primarchs, their character traits or their unique physical traits are described as the result of their upbringing or as something that was caused by Chaos altering the gene-seed. Thus I feel that any novel or source that looks at the different traits of the Primarchs and then explains that it was all meant to be and intentionally orchestrated by the Emperor is completely oblivious of their actual origin. The Emperor did not make Guilliman into a scholarly philosopher-king. He did not make Angron a raging berserker. He did not make Jonson an introvert. He did not make Vulkan a tenacious master smith. Any "fluff" that suggests that is ill conceived in my view.

Its bad enough that you dismiss the source out of hand, based solely on what appears to be your dislike of the Heresy series. But to then try and cast aspersions about it by implying that it says something which it doesn't is just plain bad form. The information from Deliverance Lost mentions that certain traits are clearly engineered, it doesn't even attempt to suggest that all of the Primarchs traits are engineered. The above spiel labelling any such fluff as "oblivious of their (the Primarchs') actual origin" and "ill conceived", all the while implying that the source I mentioned actually says what you're railing against, shows not only your obvious bias, but also either your ignorance of the material or an quite frankly unworthy attempt at intellectual dishonesty. All around bad form.

 

I suppose the sources could say "the Emperor created each Primarch with unique traits, but due to their upbringing and the influence of dark forces they turned out completely different". But that is not what the sources say, is it?

Actually, while not explicitly stating it, the source does still leave the origin/source of the vast majority of the Primarchs characterisitics/traits (especially personality) wide open. But way to display your ignorance of the material you leapt so quickly to dismiss out of hand. :no:

[Legatus]

Actually, while not explicitly stating it, the source does still leave the origin/source of the vast majority of the Primarchs characterisitics/traits (especially personality) wide open. But way to display your ignorance of the material you leapt so quickly to dismiss out of hand.

Then maybe next time I just shouldn't take your word on it...

"I love how all of the Primarchs most unusual (or defining) attributes are seemingly being dismissed as/attributed to Warp contamination by some people, all the while blithely ignoring the engineered traits ascribed to each of the sets of Primarch data in Deliverance Lost."

That kinda made it sound like each of the Primarchs' traits had been specifically engineered by the Emperor. But it turns out Deliverance Lost only mentions three examples where the Emperor had engineered particular traits, without even confirming whether those traits were then actually present in the grown primarchs (post-chaos influence).

 

I then cited examples of Primarch traits that were explicitely the result of Chaos influence. Based on those two sources, we can safely say that whatever the Emperor may have intended for the Primarchs, how they turned out owed much more to the influence of Chaos or their upbringing. That is even sort of confirmed in Deliverance Lost, when the pod of Alpharius is shown to not have been built for the purpose of nurturing two separate beings.

 

And thus, due to concrete descriptions of traits being the result of chaos influence or experiences from growing up, and due to information from Horus Heresy novels either being deliberately ambiguous or made by subjective narrators, some people "dismiss" the Horus Heresy insinuations and base their view on the information we had for two decades.

 

So, to answer your question, you should probably consider this neither sad nor funny, now that you have been given more information about the origin of the Primarch traits.

[MadDoc]

Then maybe next time I just shouldn't take your word on it...

Perhaps it might be a better idea to drop your bias, and the attendant colouring it appears to give everything you read, and just read whats written instead. Or perhaps the problem is that you need things explicitly spelled out for you for you to follow them (the excuse you give for dismissing the Heresy series would certainly suggest that). My apologies, I'll know to spell things out in the simplest terms possible in future.

 

"I love how all of the Primarchs most unusual (or defining) attributes are seemingly being dismissed as/attributed to Warp contamination by some people, all the while blithely ignoring the engineered traits ascribed to each of the sets of Primarch data in Deliverance Lost."

That kinda made it sound like each of the Primarchs' traits had been specifically engineered by the Emperor. But it turns out Deliverance Lost only mentions three examples where the Emperor had engineered particular traits, without even confirming whether those traits were then actually present in the grown primarchs (post-chaos influence).

Only through wilful misreading would you get that. The text you bolded, the engineered traits ascribed to each of the sets of Primarch data, refers to those engineered traits specifically attributed to the data in the source (and only those traits), you choosing to read that as me somehow suggesting all the Primarchs' traits were engineered suggests more about your motives than what was written.

 

The source I gave (Deliverance Lost) shows that there are clearly traits which were engineered and are therefore neither environmental nor Chaotic in origin. Which was entirely the point of me mentioning it. And in your obvious bias against the Heresy series (complete with weak attempts at dismissing any information it provides as being unreliable because its not all laid out as a nice, neat trail of breadcrumbs slapping us in the face with explicit statements of "it is fact that...") you fail to take into account that the series is GW's definitive take on the events of the Heresy and is also where they're choosing to make a number of big reveals (all of which gets signed off by their IP department, many of the same guys who signed off on the 2E sources you favour so strongly).

 

I then cited examples of Primarch traits that were explicitely the result of Chaos influence. Based on those two sources, we can safely say that whatever the Emperor may have intended for the Primarchs, how they turned out owed much more to the influence of Chaos or their upbringing. That is even sort of confirmed in Deliverance Lost, when the pod of Alpharius is shown to not have been built for the purpose of nurturing two separate beings.

That only works if you ignore the fact that Deliverance Lost also mentions that the Primarch data for the XX suggests that they were never intended to be as big as their brothers (missing the growth factors of the other samples).

 

And thus, due to concrete descriptions of traits being the result of chaos influence or experiences from growing up, and due to information from Horus Heresy novels either being deliberately ambiguous or made by subjective narrators, some people "dismiss" the Horus Heresy insinuations and base their view on the information we had for two decades.

Patronise away, but I don't dismiss any sources. I take mitigating factors into account where relevant, such as where older sources are patently outdated and/or have been subsequently superceded, but I never dismiss a source out of hand. Particularly not based solely on some prejudice against BL or a book series (and even if I were to do that, I would be honest about it and say so rather than obfuscate my reasons behind some weakly fabricated justification).

 

So, to answer your question, you should probably consider this neither sad nor funny, now that you have been given more information about the origin of the Primarch traits.

Sorry to disappoint, but there is nothing you've provided that is news to me. I have all those sources (and far more besides) and in spite of what you keep trying to imply, I have never once dismissed them as valid sources (thats your deal not mine).

 

I also know precisely what to consider this, "facts be damned, Legatus knows best...", in other words "sad".

 

As such, I'll take the hint (:D) and not bother wasting my time any further.

[Aleax]

Hi, jumping in the thread ;)

 

Perhaps I am being a bit unfair to the notion that The Emperor created the Primarchs each with unique traits and for a special purpose. It is possible that he did not create 20 identical models.

Well to me, never ever did I thought about the bizarre that the Emperor created clones, and then Chaos modelled them. It simply is not true because...normal marines were created with the geneseed of their respective primarchs, geneseed which was on the moon and not corrupted by Chaos, and we all know that an Ultramarine is not a Space Wolf...so their geneseed is different.

 

As of the topic at hand, I believe that the Primarchs were not created with the purpose of specific roles, but for love of the different colors. What we got are the Ultramarines (blue), the Imperial Fists (yellow) and to me the Space Wolves (red, and for red there are also the Blood Angels and to me, the Iron Warriors as well). The others are a mix of these colors really. Also the Primarchs were not only created with a color in mind but for the purpose of being military generals as well. The result is the Primarchs.

 

As of the BL books, according to them, Lion'el Jonson is traitor-ish and "sad", borrowing the precious word of MadHoc. Did we really need several books about Lion'el being "sad" ? Great books....not. Nope, not really.

 

No.

 

Cheers.

[Legatus]

Well to me, never ever did I thought about the bizarre that the Emperor created clones, and then Chaos modelled them. It simply is not true because...normal marines were created with the geneseed of their respective primarchs, geneseed which was on the moon and not corrupted by Chaos, and we all know that an Ultramarine is not a Space Wolf...so their geneseed is different.

Didn't the Legions started using their Primarchs "current" gene-seed as soon as they had found them, though? So all the Marines we ever see in the 40k stories would have been created with the "mutated" gene-seed of their Primarch.

 

I do agree that the Emperor probably did not make the Primarchs identical. It's just that whatever he may have concocted in his lab, how the Primarchs turned out in the end was very different. For a lot of Primarchs, the influence of Chaos or the environmental factors are explicitly described in their origin story. It seems that now Gav has decided that the wolf traits of Russ had been "built in", and were not the result of Chaos influence. An odd decision, if you ask me. And not the only "odd decision" of the Horus Heresy series. (I don't even think I have o explain why I dislike it.)