Primarch Role(S)?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I did some "clean up" removing OT and other unhealthy behaviour. I hope it's the first and the last on this thread.

[Conn Eremon]

It's just that whatever he may have concocted in his lab, how the Primarchs turned out in the end was very different.

 

But not all of the Primarchs were different in every way to the Emperor's original intent. I understand that you have a preference to the older fluff's reasoning of this, but you can't just accept that the Emperor had done those tweaks, but that they had zero impact. Chaos' intervention and their homeworlds are still heavy influences to the Primarchs, but it is no longer the only influence to their childhoods and upbringings. There is now a third, and how it affected the Primarchs on an individual basis wildly varies between them. There are some where Chaos' intervention might have had a much bigger impact, like Sanguinius and Alpharius (Deliverance Lost said a smaller, not twin, XX), and others were the influence of the Emperor's tweaks are almost nonexistant (Deliverance Lost mentioned finding xenos genetic material in its notes, and I for one can't think of a single Primarch with that kind of tweak), but it's still there, and for some it might have been a bigger impact than the others. Horus, for one, had a negligible Homeworld/Chaos influence in his childhood, and was raised by the Emperor likely in the exact manner of the original intention. So Horus very easily could have been the only Primarch to actually fulfill the Emperor's original promise, which makes the Heresy all the more tragic. Perturabo's mental unbalancing and mechanical predilection might not be solely due to the Emperor's meddling, but they could have been unforeseen side effects coupled with the other two influences.

[Morningstar317]

Well to me, never ever did I thought about the bizarre that the Emperor created clones, and then Chaos modelled them. It simply is not true because...normal marines were created with the geneseed of their respective primarchs, geneseed which was on the moon and not corrupted by Chaos, and we all know that an Ultramarine is not a Space Wolf...so their geneseed is different.

Didn't the Legions started using their Primarchs "current" gene-seed as soon as they had found them, though? So all the Marines we ever see in the 40k stories would have been created with the "mutated" gene-seed of their Primarch.

 

I do agree that the Emperor probably did not make the Primarchs identical. It's just that whatever he may have concocted in his lab, how the Primarchs turned out in the end was very different. For a lot of Primarchs, the influence of Chaos or the environmental factors are explicitly described in their origin story. It seems that now Gav has decided that the wolf traits of Russ had been "built in", and were not the result of Chaos influence. An odd decision, if you ask me. And not the only "odd decision" of the Horus Heresy series. (I don't even think I have o explain why I dislike it.)

 

 

I made mention that several of the key charactors in the Heresy (and feeding into the 40k universe) were created prior to them being untied with their Primarch. So in my opinion it weakens your point about the influence of chaos and strengthens the concepts in Deliverance Lost.

 

I've no problem with the view held in the Codex's and previous editions, in my opinion; it's how you view a legend and like all legends the subtlety (shades of grey, if you prefer) are lost. While the Horus Heresy novels have changed our view of the canon, I welcome the fact it adds charactor and sublety to the foundations of the 40k universe.

[Aleax]

Hi.

Didn't the Legions started using their Primarchs "current" gene-seed as soon as they had found them, though? So all the Marines we ever see in the 40k stories would have been created with the "mutated" gene-seed of their Primarch.

Well this is pure speculation of you then. :cuss

 

I do agree that the Emperor probably did not make the Primarchs identical. It's just that whatever he may have concocted in his lab, how the Primarchs turned out in the end was very different. For a lot of Primarchs, the influence of Chaos or the environmental factors are explicitly described in their origin story. It seems that now Gav has decided that the wolf traits of Russ had been "built in", and were not the result of Chaos influence. An odd decision, if you ask me. And not the only "odd decision" of the Horus Heresy series. (I don't even think I have o explain why I dislike it.)

IMO the influence of Chaos was an excuse for GW to dispatch the Primarchs in the galaxy so that they would each born in a different world oddly enough at their own image, and to add mutations all-around so that it terrifies children.

 

As for the wolves, actually I prefer the chaos influence, more than the geneseed mutation. No disrespect to the wolves, but now the next step of the geneseed mutation is to become a 10" tall wolf with adamantium jaws and whatever else? Not my liking, but I can see that it adds character (if it's needed at all) within the chapter, and may be realistic enough if it is made by chaos.

 

By the mutation of the geneseed? The geneseed would correct the mutation, or this shouldn't be possible. Someone should ask a doctor about a child with two heads. A geneseed mutation would never ever grant this. Ever, and so the Long Fangs are bizarro, but it terrifies I suppose.

 

Cheers.

[Legatus]

Horus, for one, had a negligible Homeworld/Chaos influence in his childhood, and was raised by the Emperor likely in the exact manner of the original intention. So Horus very easily could have been the only Primarch to actually fulfill the Emperor's original promise, which makes the Heresy all the more tragic.

Horus had always been closest to the Emperor because he was the first of the Primarchs that was discovered. And I never got the impression that Horus' achievements had been predestined by his superior gene-seed. I think it would be a pretty lame retcon if GW/BL now started to explain Horus' favoured position as having been intended from the very start.

 

 

I made mention that several of the key charactors in the Heresy (and feeding into the 40k universe) were created prior to them being untied with their Primarch. So in my opinion it weakens your point about the influence of chaos and strengthens the concepts in Deliverance Lost.

Weren't the Deathguard, the Alpha Legion and the World Eaters described as having operated very differently prior to being reunited with their Primarchs? The Ultramarines definitely only started to grow in size once Guilliman had assumede control, so his doctrines had not been "innate" in the Legion. Is there any Legion where it is actually suggested that the traits the Legion would later be famous for were already present before their Primarch was found?

IIRC there were genetic problems with the Thousand Sons Marines and the Emperor's Children Marines, maybe even before they were reunited with their Primarchs. But this would rather suggest that the original material that the Emperor retained when the incubator capsules was stolen was somehow contaminated as well. Or else the genes the Emperor had created himself would have been flawed.

[Marshal Rohr]

Geneseed requires the blood of the Primarch to activate properly. All the pre Primarch marines geneseed hadn't activated all the way.

[oreryan]

what about the statement that russ legion is the imperial sanction???

 

wouldnt that add to the theory of the primarch roles?? like dorn being the praetorian and all dat stuff

 

just sayin

[Legatus]

what about the statement that russ legion is the imperial sanction???

 

wouldnt that add to the theory of the primarch roles?? like dorn being the praetorian and all dat stuff

Dorn got picked because of his achievements during the Crusade. I don't think either his architectural skills or his Legion's august demeanor had anything to do with genetics.

 

And while the Space Wolves may have been described as "the executioners" (mostly by themselves), I maintain that the author who came up with that had momentarily forgotten about Legions such as the World Eaters and the Night Lords. Imperial worlds were described to cease all illegal activity and to voluntarily prosecute any suspicious groups if they heard that the Night Lords were in the sector. Foreign systems voluntarily surrendered to the Imperium when they heard that the World Eaters were among the forces sent to deal with them. Such a thing had never been said of the Space Wolves. But apparently Dan Abnett felt they should be the most terrifying and brutal of the Legions. Abnett, as good as he is as a writer, is a prime example of what's wrong with the Horus Heresy series. Too many authors, many of whom come up with their own ideas. And in some cases, those ideas are not based on the previous lore.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

And while the Space Wolves may have been described as "the executioners" (mostly by themselves), I maintain that the author who came up with that had momentarily forgotten about Legions such as the World Eaters and the Night Lords. Imperial worlds were described to cease all illegal activity and to voluntarily prosecute any suspicious groups if they heard that the Night Lords were in the sector. Foreign systems voluntarily surrendered to the Imperium when they heard that the World Eaters were among the forces sent to deal with them. Such a thing had never been said of the Space Wolves. But apparently Dan Abnett felt they should be the most terrifying and brutal of the Legions. Abnett, as good as he is as a writer, is a prime example of what's wrong with the Horus Heresy series. Too many authors, many of whom come up with their own ideas. And in some cases, those ideas are not based on the previous lore.

 

actually, A-DB has posted here on B&C why neither the World Eaters or the Night Lords were suited for a role as the "emperor executioners".

 

here is the thread: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...31249&st=75, on post 88.

 

here is the post for those that dont want to follow the link:

"Because we cannot be trusted. The Emperor needs a weapon that will never obey its own desires before the good of others. Most of all, he needs a weapon that will never bite the hand that feeds. We are not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor needs. The Wolves obey, when we might not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we couldn't. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.

 

The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does."

 

-- Eighth Captain Khârn, when asked why the World Eaters aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

 

 

 

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?

 

The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."

 

-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

 

WLK

[Captain Rolunde]

Ok first of all, I am very much a fan of the Wolves and I have to say, this line made me laugh "they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high."

 

And actually feel a little bit proud; only those outside the pack can't understand the pack. :tu:

 

Also I thought that this was a great line: "The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."

 

- Now back to the topic:

 

So... reading The First Heretic, there is some info there that might provide a little insight into this. All subjective to opinion of course.

 

 

 

 

Around page 297 they are talking about Primarchs, gene-seed and such.

 

They mention things like "most of the flaws in gene-seed structure will be written out...(Most, not all.)"

 

It clearly states some info about the Thousand Sons, although it does not indicate if any of those are intentional. But it is still from their genetics.

 

There is some minor stuff about the Imperial Fists and the Salamanders that is easily recognised from current lore.

 

But IMO, most interestingly is the part about the Word Bearers, talking about how much more devoted they are to their Primarch. And further goes on to state:

"Your gene-seed enhances the chemicals in your brain tissue. It gives you focus. It gives you unbreakable loyalty to your cause, and to Lorgar..." (It does also go on to indicate that they do still have free will.)

 

So this is put forth as being part of the genes of their Legion, of their Primarch.

 

My take on it is not that they are saying E created Lorgar's gene-seed to give him obsessive compulsive behavior towards having total devotion towards his dad, which he later turns towards something else. I do see it as an indicator that their are indeed certain genetic flags though. There must have been some intention for "this one to be more devoted/focused" by way of some kind of mild reward chemical in his brain.

 

And maybe these was something along the line of a genetic marker in Russ that was along the line of a Canid. Some trait that E thought would prove favorable when Russ was grown. Maybe with the intent of "fierce but loyal"?

 

Anyway, I doubt these are entirely accidental, considering how much the Emperor put into developing them, but certainly these traits must have been accentuated, if not flat out exaggerated by Chaos while their pods were in the Warp.

 

 

 

Also, the Emperor must have had some idea or understanding on how or why Sanguinius ended up with WINGS on his Back!

 

I mean, that's a pretty hard thing to overlook and seeing how "uptight" he/they can be about this stuff, at least in as much as that part of his mutation was considered acceptable.

[Legatus]

actually, A-DB has posted here on B&C why neither the World Eaters or the Night Lords were suited for a role as the "emperor executioners".

That is neat, and all, but he had written that up ad-hoc for this Forum, and it has nothing to do with Abnett's own reason for why the Space Wolves were the executioners. In Prospero Burns, the Imperial Guard officier professes that while some Legions are noble warriors, some are monsters, and the Space Wolves are the worst of them all. In the video teaser for the book, Abnett poses the question why the Emperor would let a Legion as violent and unhinged as the Space Wolves exist: In order to take down another Legion. Neither their loyalty nor their ability to exact restraint enters into it. They are the executioners because they are the most brutal and ruthless of the Legions. The worst of tehm all.

 

 

It clearly states some info about the Thousand Sons, although it does not indicate if any of those are intentional. But it is still from their genetics.

 

(...)

 

But IMO, most interestingly is the part about the Word Bearers, talking about how much more devoted they are to their Primarch. And further goes on to state:

"Your gene-seed enhances the chemicals in your brain tissue. It gives you focus. It gives you unbreakable loyalty to your cause, and to Lorgar..." (It does also go on to indicate that they do still have free will.)

Those are not new. The mutations that plagued the Thousand Sons Legion were obviously genetic. And that the Word Bearers gene-seed seemed to contain some element that made them more devoted was already mentioned in their Index Astartes article. The question is, were these flaws introduced by the Chaos powers, or were they intentionally engineered by the Emperor? Why would he reprimand Lorgar for acting according to how he himself had created him?

 

 

Also, the Emperor must have had some idea or understanding on how or why Sanguinius ended up with WINGS on his Back!

The Emperor knew that the Chaos powers had stolen the incubator capsules. He likely recognised that they had tinkered with the Primarch's gene-seed, but deemed them still pure at heart.

[Bulwyf]

I agree with Legatus with his pointing out how the SW were portrayed by Abnett and the way they were perceived at the time in the HH novel he wrote. He's not talking about being executioners with the ability to restrain themselves. Honestly it sounds like ADB is trying to do a bit of face saving for Dan in that he picks the SW as the "really bad ass guys" because the lore already stated Russ was sent by the Emperor to bring Magnus down and Dan had to give reasons why in the HH novels. The other lore rather explicitly states that the Night Lords and World Eaters were easily the most feared legions and you not once prior to the HH novels heard the same mentioned about SW. And for the record before I'm accused of "my primarch beats up your primarch" the SW are hands down my favorite loyalist legion/chapter.

 

I also have to agree with Legatus about people underestimating how much Chaos infected or influenced the primarchs while in their pods. Why would the Emperor upbraid Lorgar for being obsessed with devotion to his father if the Emperor was the one that put that in him? Why would he give wings to one primarch and not the rest? There apparently were some primarchs that got unusual or individual gene seed modification for a purpose we don't know but some of these variations are clearly from Chaos.

[AbyssKnight]

Those are not new. The mutations that plagued the Thousand Sons Legion were obviously genetic. And that the Word Bearers gene-seed seemed to contain some element that made them more devoted was already mentioned in their Index Astartes article. The question is, were these flaws introduced by the Chaos powers, or were they intentionally engineered by the Emperor?

 

Why do we have to choose?

 

Perhaps the elements that make each Primarch unique are both engineered by the Emperor and influenced by Chaos.

 

Take your example of Lorgar. I can easily see the Emperor putting some kind of coding in place to enhance the dedication of the Astartes to their Primarch, above and beyond that which is normally present. And in turn, that Primarch will be especially dedicated to the Emperor, above and beyond even his brothers' loyalty. But which traveling through the Warp, a helpless infant, the Powers corrupted this trait, loyalty became piety, love became worship, a son became a supplicant.

 

Or Leman Russ. The Emperor engineers his genome with traits of canine DNA, as a previous poster said, to encourage a fierce but loyal mindset. Astartes are "pack animals" afterall, and Russ will be the Alpha! But when Chaos abducted the cub-Primarch, what was supposed to be a subtle influence, something that affected how Russ would think and act, become something much more.....physical. Instead of just thinking in terms of "the good of the pack" (whether the pack is Fenrisians, Space Wolves, the Imperium, or all humanity), now he and his genetic sons would be vulpine in form. But in Russ's case, there is an almost allergic reaction. Too much Chaos can result in an over-stimulation of this process, which helps protect against Chaotic taint but transforms the Marine into Wulfen!!

 

These are just two examples, but I hope they show how it is a false dichotomy to say we must choose that either the Emperor chose for his sons to be how they were, or that it was entirely Chaos' doing. I think it makes sense that the Emperor would make each of his generals different. The Primarchs were made in sequence, not as a batch, and so he may have tried different techniques on each. They are as much a science experiment as anything else, precious and important as they are.

 

And Chaos is not known for creating but for corrupting. Rather than installing new traits wholesale, they would have magnified preexisting traits to try to suit their desires. This fits with every depiction of Chaos' seduction I know of, the slow fall as they appeal to what is already inside you.

[Legatus]

These are just two examples, but I hope they show how it is a false dichotomy to say we must choose that either the Emperor chose for his sons to be how they were, or that it was entirely Chaos' doing.

Well, if the question is whether the unique traits of the Primarchs as they existed during the Great Crusade had all been engineered for a special purpose, then I think we can take exception where a Primarch's traits were clearly described as a result of their upbringing or the tinkering of Chaos. If Lorgar's traits had merely been exagerated, but still originally seeded by the Emperor, then his reaction to Lorgar's worship would perhaps have been not quiet as extreme.

 

And I am still not comfortable with the notion that the Emperor intentionally made one of the Primarchs "the best" in all aspects. Why would he make the other Primarchs less? Why make the different types if he could just have made them all as perfect as Horus?

[MadDoc]

then his reaction to Lorgar's worship would perhaps have been not quiet as extreme.

Sorry but I have to pull you up, as you're playing fast and loose with the facts there. His reaction was to the fact that Lorgar and his Legion were in fact worshipping him as a God (edit- which is in fact quite different to mere enhanced/unswerving loyalty) and wasting time constructing temples and monuments to him (as a God), God worship (regardless of who is cast in the roll of God) was completely at odds with the secular Imperial Truth, hence his reaction.

 

Misrepresenting the facts is poor form at the best of times, doubly so if its being to done to support a given position (that it normally wouldn't).

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

actually, A-DB has posted here on B&C why neither the World Eaters or the Night Lords were suited for a role as the "emperor executioners".

That is neat, and all, but he had written that up ad-hoc for this Forum, and it has nothing to do with Abnett's own reason for why the Space Wolves were the executioners. In Prospero Burns, the Imperial Guard officier professes that while some Legions are noble warriors, some are monsters, and the Space Wolves are the worst of them all. In the video teaser for the book, Abnett poses the question why the Emperor would let a Legion as violent and unhinged as the Space Wolves exist: In order to take down another Legion. Neither their loyalty nor their ability to exact restraint enters into it. They are the executioners because they are the most brutal and ruthless of the Legions. The worst of tehm all.

 

According to A DB's FB account, the World Eater one will be in the upcoming novel. the NL one i think is just forum specific.

 

i would point out that so far we have an author's opinion (maybe like ward's slip up in the WD about the Ultramarines, but i digress) and the word of an imperial officer. who hadnt served under the world eaters or the night lord, so can hardly be viewed as a fountain of knowledge in this situation.

 

WLK

[Legatus]

Sorry but I have to pull you up, as you're playing fast and loose with the facts there. His reaction was to the fact that Lorgar and his Legion were in fact worshipping him as a God (edit- which is in fact quite different to mere enhanced/unswerving loyalty) and wasting time constructing temples and monuments to him (as a God), God worship (regardless of who is cast in the roll of God) was completely at odds with the secular Imperial Truth, hence his reaction.

Of course, the entire ordeal makes no sense at all in a continuity where it was the Emperor's explicite and stated will that there should be no god worship. But then "sense" is not a priority for the Horus Heresy novels. In the previous GW sources, Lorgar had been reprimanded for wasting time, for not making enough progress in the Crusade. He was wasting time converting the population of the worlds he conquered, and had them build temples in honour of the Emperor. But that was not a problem in itself. It was the wasting of time that was the problem. With the Horus Heresy novels, the Imperium now has a new "no worship" agenda. And now that is what Lorgar would be reprimanded for, instead of his lack of progress. Too bad he did not get the memo about the Imperium's explicite agenda.

 

But be that as it may, the Emperor should still be able to recognise that as an exagerated form of the traits he himself had imbued Lorgar with. If that is what happened, as suggested by AbyssKnight. Your hair splitting does not really challenge that issue.

 

 

i would point out that so far we have an author's opinion (maybe like ward's slip up in the WD about the Ultramarines, but i digress) and the word of an imperial officer. who hadnt served under the world eaters or the night lord, so can hardly be viewed as a fountain of knowledge in this situation.

That is what I would say to claims regarding the Space Wolves' executioner status. The problem is that said author is having his opinion published in novels, and that further authors are now latching on to his idea. As I said, the problem of the Horus heresy series.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

until the Emperor himself comes down and says "Russ, you are my executioner...go slay this mutha-fracker for me" all we have is opinions from various sources, speculating on what they (and not the Emperor) believe.

 

My dad used to say: Opinions are like arseholes, everybody has one and most of them are full of crap.

 

WLK

[Legatus]

Shush, don't say that out loud. Chances are, Dan Abnett will have the Emperor actually say that in his next novel. That's exactly what McNeill did with his "the Codex is sometimes wrong" schtick as soon as he had been given the chance.

[Aleax]

Hi.

 

Geneseed requires the blood of the Primarch to activate properly. All the pre Primarch marines geneseed hadn't activated all the way.

And Space Marines were created while the Primarchs were missing. They were created with the DNA of the primarchs kept on the moon as I see this, "hadn't activated all the way" is pure speculation, once again.

 

Cheers.

[ShadowHaunt]

Sorry to join this so late, but I do have a couple of observations that I'm a little surprised haven't been mentioned by someone else already. There's no real question that Chaos had some amount of influence, on at least some of the Primarchs. At the same time, unless you totally ignore both Deliverance Lost, as well as the fairly obvious implication of the symmetry between "rival" Legions, it'd difficult to claim there was no plan or intent at all. The open question is really about just how much each of the three factors - The Emperor's design, the mutations of Chaos, and the Nurture of the environment they landed in - had in forming each Primarch into what they eventually became.

 

The level of redundancy in core traits across Legions suggests that rather than intending each Primarch to fill a specific, highly focused role, the Emperor had in mind to cover all the bases, as it were. He made the Primarchs, and the Legions that followed, as tools. He did not want 20 hammers in his toolbox, he wanted screwdrivers and wrenches, as well. He made some to be more generalists, and others more specialized. Some he built to be physically imposing and powerful, while others he made so he could rely on their minds.

 

So, saying that the Space Wolves were designed as his executioners, bred for killing other marines, for example, is really quite a stretch. For that to be true, the Emperor would have had to have foreseen that he would NEED such a force. Far more plausible, is that Russ was designed to be fierce, physically powerful, and to have the cunning of a pack hunter, which requires a certain degree of loyalty, and that, when the time came that he needed a force to handle other marines, those traits were strong enough in Russ, and his Legion, that they could be used that way. It's worth pointing out that the World Eaters were a disciplined and profoundly loyal Legion, prior to Angron being found, which implies that Russ and Angron might well have been very similar in their design, but because they grew up differently, and perhaps were affected differently by Chaos, their final state was dramatically different.

 

The Primarchs, as a group, can be split up along several axes, and when you do so, there's a pretty even spread. For example, you can differentiate between those who are warleaders by example, being physically powerful leaders on the field, and those who take on the role of General, planning and strategizing, and those who balance between the two. You can see that Ferris, Vulkan, and Fulgrim take pride and pleasure from working with their hands, in a tangible way, while Magnus, Lorgar, and Guilliman all have a passion for the gathering and sharing of knowledge, of various sorts. While each Primarch is different, unique, as a composite, the level of redundancy across important traits is more in line with some level of planning, than with the theory of blank slates, ruled by Chaos' tampering, and the accidents of where they landed. Corax and Angron both landed on slave worlds, and grew up as slaves. Both went on to attempt to free themselves, and their fellow slaves, yet they went about it in dramatically different ways. Do we chalk that up to chance, or is it perhaps a glimmer of the difference in their designs, brought out clearly by the circumstances they found themselves in. Likewise, Curze, Russ, and the Lion all grew up in the wild, with little to no human contact until they were older, yet they have nearly as much difference between them, as similarity.

 

It seems clear the Emperor had a plan, but it is unlikely the plan was so detailed as to specify which Primarch would take on what duties, after centuries of warfare.

[Marshal Rohr]

Hi.

 

Geneseed requires the blood of the Primarch to activate properly. All the pre Primarch marines geneseed hadn't activated all the way.

And Space Marines were created while the Primarchs were missing. They were created with the DNA of the primarchs kept on the moon as I see this, "hadn't activated all the way" is pure speculation, once again.

 

Cheers.

 

If by pure speculation, you mean two concrete sources (FFG and the Ritual of the Crimson Fist and Codex Blood Angels and the inbibing of Sanguinius' Blood) and one source I think mentions it (The Spac Wolf trial where they succeed or become a wulfen), then yeah, I pulled all that out of my :D.

[Aleax]

Hi.

 

Geneseed requires the blood of the Primarch to activate properly. All the pre Primarch marines geneseed hadn't activated all the way.

And Space Marines were created while the Primarchs were missing. They were created with the DNA of the primarchs kept on the moon as I see this, "hadn't activated all the way" is pure speculation, once again.

 

Cheers.

 

If by pure speculation, you mean two concrete sources (FFG and the Ritual of the Crimson Fist and Codex Blood Angels and the inbibing of Sanguinius' Blood) and one source I think mentions it (The Spac Wolf trial where they succeed or become a wulfen), then yeah, I pulled all that out of my :cuss.

Lol, the blood of the primarchs was on the moon as well, or not?

 

Cheers.

[Legatus]

ShadowHaunt: That is all very plausible. However, I have two objections. Having different Primarchs with different specialities (some more physical, some more mental) is pretty much what you will almost always get when there is a group of people that are being characterised. You could pick any book or movie with such a group of heroes or villains, and you would find such different traits. It's just that making them all identical would have been very boring. So I wouldn't say that this can be seen as a sign for intentional creation of such traits.

The other point is not really an argument why it "couldn't" be intentional, and more a personal opinion. I think if GW decided that the Emperor had intentionally made the Primarchs into how they turned out, at least partially, then that would cheapen their personal achievements. E.g. Horus, Guilliman and Jonson were not so successful because they had acquired their strengths while growing up, the Emperor made them the strategic masterminds. So it was no question that they would be the most successful in waging a campaign on a galactic scale. Dorn was not picked to accompany the Emperor to Terra because he distinguished himself as a planner and architect, but because the Emperor recognized that Dorn was the one he had built for that purpose. I.e. it was not an honour Dorn had "earned", it was predestined. Personally, I find the case that the Primarchs had acquired their strengths, weaknesses and traits while growing up much more appealing.

[Marshal Rohr]

Hi.

 

Geneseed requires the blood of the Primarch to activate properly. All the pre Primarch marines geneseed hadn't activated all the way.

And Space Marines were created while the Primarchs were missing. They were created with the DNA of the primarchs kept on the moon as I see this, "hadn't activated all the way" is pure speculation, once again.

 

Cheers.

 

If by pure speculation, you mean two concrete sources (FFG and the Ritual of the Crimson Fist and Codex Blood Angels and the inbibing of Sanguinius' Blood) and one source I think mentions it (The Spac Wolf trial where they succeed or become a wulfen), then yeah, I pulled all that out of my :(.

Lol, the blood of the primarchs was on the moon as well, or not?

 

Cheers.

 

I'd imagine the Primarchs kept their blood with them when they were scattered. Space marines came about after the Primarchs scattered.