Primarch Role(S)?

[Aegnor]

So, basically in this thread we've got down to Nature vs Nurture. That's an argument we'll solve quickly! :(

[Legatus]

The problem is that a lot of details had not been described in earlier sources, and now that Black Library is filling in the blanks, they will encounter a lot of plot holes.

 

E.g. when the Primarchs were taken, were they already in infant form, or were they in a foetal state? So, did the Chaos Gods not only influence the 20th embryo to split into twins but actually create a "clone" of the initially single Primarch?

Was the original sample of the Primarch's genetic code somehow affected by the Chaos powers? IIRC the Thousand Sons and the Emperor's Children had genetic defects even before the Primarchs were found.

 

During their more detailed description of the events, the authors are required to make a call on some of those issues. But no matter how they call it, it will lead to problems. I personally would have preferred if the creation of the Primarchs and the Horus Heresy had remained as the stuff of legends.

[Blood Angel Scout]

The problem is that a lot of details had not been described in earlier sources, and now that Black Library is filling in the blanks, they will encounter a lot of plot holes.

 

E.g. when the Primarchs were taken, were they already in infant form, or were they in a foetal state? So, did the Chaos Gods not only influence the 20th embryo to split into twins but actually create a "clone" of the initially single Primarch?

Was the original sample of the Primarch's genetic code somehow affected by the Chaos powers? IIRC the Thousand Sons and the Emperor's Children had genetic defects even before the Primarchs were found.

 

During their more detailed description of the events, the authors are required to make a call on some of those issues. But no matter how they call it, it will lead to problems. I personally would have preferred if the creation of the Primarchs and the Horus Heresy had remained as the stuff of legends.

 

How can they encounter plot holes when the Horus Heresy series is filling them? That is its function and guessing by the sales volume, critical response, forum activity etc, I'm not the only one who wants to know the answers to questions I've had running in my head for the past 20 odd years since I first read about the siege...I want to know what happened when Sanguinius and Angron stare off each other, what went on between them? How the Great Khan re-took the spaceport, why it was only Sang who was holding the door til the loyalists retreated safely, what went on in the throne room webway gates?.....all this and so much more has yet to be covered by the current range, and am delighted to be provided by these sources with the answers, even you must be glad to have proper reasons to explain why the Ultra's struggled to make it to Terra to fight...

 

To be fair, I suggest you put your bias aside and read/listen the HH series, not just rely upon second-hand information or skimming through a book in a shop...you'll find the answers to your own questions above and no doubt many others you will have wondered about. I mean all of it, every single book and audio drama, even the ones people don't enjoy plus the special editions can be found or borrowed because each one is the constant evolution of a progressing story whose plot was established by the fact we know how it ends but is now giving the slimmest of details to how it all began with scenes refering to the creation of the primarchs featuring in probably 85% of the range, right from a perpective as to how the incubators looked, their contents looked, the cause of their scattering and the damage done to them on landing...almost like its a key theme or a plotline, strange coincidence that....

 

Cheers

[Marshal Rohr]

The plot holes are caused by the new material not meshing with the older stuff.

 

For a non-Horus Heresy example of how he means 'holes', the Space Wolves are mentioned as having fought at Hive Helsreach in the Armageddon lore, but are absent in the novel specifically about the battle of Helsreach. The older didnt mesh with the newer.

 

The material being written now contradicts or ignores the old stuff more than it answers things unanswered. Some people dont care and like the new stuff, other prefer the old information.

[Legatus]

How can they encounter plot holes when the Horus Heresy series is filling them?

Some holes are only just created by describing the episodes of the Crusade and the Horus Heresy in more detail. Take the two examples I mentioned. IIRC some Horus Heresy novels (such as 'The First Heretic') mention that the Primarchs were already infants when they were stolen. But then that would mean that the Chaos Gods did not just "influence" the embryo of Alpharius to split into developing twins. Instead, they created an outright clone of the infant Alpharius from scratch. Similarly, it was not a Sanguinius embryo that was manipulated to grow into a foetus and infant with wings, the infant had already grown without wings, and then the Chaos Gods put wings on him retroactively.

And what material was used for the Space Marines Legions, exactly? If the "pure" dna of the Primarchs was used, then why did the Thousand Sons and the Emperor's Children have such trouble with mutating gene-seed?

All these would be open questions in an only briefly described Primarch origin story from the 41st millennium. But in a description in a 31st millennium novel, these questions are far more glaring, and are not answered at all. In "legend" form in the 41st millennium, any unexplained phenomenon can be seen as a result of it just being hearsay tales of ancient sources.

 

 

even you must be glad to have proper reasons to explain why the Ultra's struggled to make it to Terra to fight...

Sources since 2nd Edition have given perfectly satisfying explanatons why the Ultramarines had not been on Terra. The Horus Heresy series has retconned that explanation, but has yet to provide a new one. If I accepted the Horus heresy account, I would now know much less than before.

And speaking of diminishing our knowledge: The Collected Visions books had provided a compelling description of the Battle for Calth, painting the picture of a global struggle and an imense effort by Roboute Guillman to push back the invaders on the ground and in space. The retconned account in the Horus Heresy series is a joke in comparison, and instead of countless fleet actions and managing several isolated forces on the ground, Guilliman now only issues one command to one single force on the ground, and only leads a single boarding action himself. I have gained nothing by reading that book. Half of the descriptions in that book, in particular those of a dreadnought falling from orbit and an immortal Imperial Guardsman, were of no significance for the Battle for Calth at all.

Perhaps I picked an exceptionally bad book as my first entry in the Horus Heresy series, but I don't think that is the case, is it?

[oreryan]

to be the sanction you dont have to be brutal, you just have to get the ;) done!!!

wolves get :cuss done, you dont need a berseker who is better suited for spearheading invasions and get the fear of the emperor on the infidels =P

 

again ......just sayin , nothing can be taken as the truth because GW can change it any time

personally i like the idea of the wolves being the imperial sanction, feel it suits em

[MadDoc]

Some holes are only just created by describing the episodes of the Crusade and the Horus Heresy in more detail. Take the two examples I mentioned. IIRC some Horus Heresy novels (such as 'The First Heretic') mention that the Primarchs were already infants when they were stolen. But then that would mean that the Chaos Gods did not just "influence" the embryo of Alpharius to split into developing twins. Instead, they created an outright clone of the infant Alpharius from scratch. Similarly, it was not a Sanguinius embryo that was manipulated to grow into a foetus and infant with wings, the infant had already grown without wings, and then the Chaos Gods put wings on him retroactively.

All I see here is issues arising as a result of you working from unfounded assumptions.

 

Nothing we've seen thus far so much as hints that Alpharius and Omegon weren't two/twins before the pods were scattered, thats purely an assumption on your part. As for Sanguinius' not having wings from his inception, I wasn't aware that Chaos induced mutations had to be present from a beings first moments, and as you're so very fond of pointing out Sanguinius' wings are the result of Chaos influence.

 

So your issues are non-events.

[Legatus]

Nothing we've seen thus far so much as hints that Alpharius and Omegon weren't two/twins before the pods were scattered, thats purely an assumption on your part. As for Sanguinius' not having wings from his inception, I wasn't aware that Chaos induced mutations had to be present from a beings first moments, and as you're so very fond of pointing out Sanguinius' wings are the result of Chaos influence.

If Chaos was not just subtly manipulating their gene seed, but was actually "morphing their flesh", then why wasn't Chaos able to outright kill them?

Why didn't the Emperor tell everyone that Alpharius had a twin? Especially after the Alpha Legion had sided with Horus?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Nothing we've seen thus far so much as hints that Alpharius and Omegon weren't two/twins before the pods were scattered, thats purely an assumption on your part. As for Sanguinius' not having wings from his inception, I wasn't aware that Chaos induced mutations had to be present from a beings first moments, and as you're so very fond of pointing out Sanguinius' wings are the result of Chaos influence.

If Chaos was not just subtly manipulating their gene seed, but was actually "morphing their flesh", then why wasn't Chaos able to outright kill them?

Why didn't the Emperor tell everyone that Alpharius had a twin? Especially after the Alpha Legion had sided with Horus?

 

Maybe Chaos factored in corrupting more of them. and frankly, chaos is chaos, maybe some wanted to kill the primarchs and some didnt. who knows at this point?

 

maybe the Emperor, in his emperorness, knew one of the AL was playing for the opposing team, but not which?

 

both of these are questions that may or may not be answered over the course of the HH series. making decisions now if just being too hasty.

 

WLK

[MadDoc]

If Chaos was not just subtly manipulating their gene seed, but was actually "morphing their flesh", then why wasn't Chaos able to outright kill them?

Who's to say that Chaos wasn't trying to kill him but all they managed was to cause his mutation/wings?

 

Why didn't the Emperor tell everyone that Alpharius had a twin?

Why didn't the Emperor tell anyone what he was working on in his underground/dungeon lab? Why did he have the II & XI stricken from records? Why did he do anything?

 

Simple answer, he chose to do/not do things for his own inscrutable reasons which only GW have any real inkling of (in all likelihood simply a choice by GW to make him appear all the more inscrutable).

 

Especially after the Alpha Legion had sided with Horus?

Why didn't he think of that triffling detail after he was stuck manning the Golden throne to hold back the Daemonic tide trying to breach the Imperial Palace and overwhelm Terra (thanks to Magnus' ham-fisted "warning")? He likely had more pressing concerns...

 

The fact is that we don't know what the Emperor knew (yet if ever). But as the most powerful psyker in humanities history, with massive prophetic/intuitive powers, its a little hard to believe he wouldn't have known about the twins "secret" (I wouldn't be surprised if, for similar reasons, Magnus had an inkling on some level as well), much as he knew about Corax's ability to cloak his presence without Corax having ever told anyone about it (and yet he kept that secret as well).

 

Assuming that he didn't know is just that, an assumption. Based on what we know (his knowledge of Corax's ability and other things he just inherently seems to know) we can reasonably speculate that he did in fact know, but simply chose to keep the knowledge to himself (much as he did with Corax's secret and many other things).

[Legatus]

Who's to say that Chaos wasn't trying to kill him but all they managed was to cause his mutation/wings?

The Chaos Gods can't actually control what kind of mutation they cause, you say?

 

 

Why didn't the Emperor tell everyone that Alpharius had a twin?

Why didn't the Emperor tell anyone what he was working on in his underground/dungeon lab?

There is a difference between telling anyone about his current project that does not immediately concern them and telling his loyal Primarchs that they are facing ten Primarchs and not just nine.

 

 

Why didn't he think of that triffling detail after he was stuck manning the Golden throne to hold back the Daemonic tide trying to breach the Imperial Palace and overwhelm Terra (thanks to Magnus' ham-fisted "warning")? He likely had more pressing concerns...

If he can tell Corax about a hidden lab to go fetch some gene-seed samples, he can drop Dorn a note about there being two Alpha Legion Primarchs.

 

 

Assuming that he didn't know is just that, an assumption. Based on what we know (his knowledge of Corax's ability and other things he just inherently seems to know) we can reasonably speculate that he did in fact know, but simply chose to keep the knowledge to himself (much as he did with Corax's secret and many other things).

Not exposing things his sons mean to keep a secret makes absolute reasonable sense. Not telling his loyal sons that they are facing an additional Primarch they were previously unaware of makes no sense whatsoever.

[Marshal Rohr]

That would be a funny scene

 

 

 

Dorn: Brothers we face nine of our traitor brothers today!

Emperor: [unintelligible whisper]

Dorn: Correction...TEN of our traitor brothers!

[MadDoc]

The Chaos Gods can't actually control what kind of mutation they cause, you say?

No, thats not what I said at all. But it wouldn't be the first time somebody tried to misrepresent my words.

 

Sanguinius is a Primarch, they're made of sterner stuff than mortals, the Primarchs pods also happened to be protected by the most potent of hexagrammic wards. Who's to say that what the Chaos Gods intended to be a warping influence that turned Sanguinius into a mewling mindless spawn didn't merely result in him growing wings thanks to the buffering/muting effect of said wards and his own Primarch nature?

 

There is a difference between telling anyone about his current project that does not immediately concern them and telling his loyal Primarchs that they are facing ten Primarchs and not just nine.

There really isn't that big a difference. Alpharius and Omegon worked may well have worked in concert, but they still had only a single Legion between them and it also wouldn't be the first time the Emperor had restricted/withheld quite important (if not vital) information (the existance of the Chaos Gods for instance).

 

If he can tell Corax about a hidden lab to go fetch some gene-seed samples, he can drop Dorn a note about there being two Alpha Legion Primarchs.

To what end? What meaning purpose would revealing Alpharius Omegons secret serve, beyond revealing their dual nature? None that I can see, they still only have one Legion and given the way that their Legion operates, they seem to play a very much background/orchestrating role anyway.

 

He didn't tell the Primarchs about the existance Chaos Gods and thats a far more crucial omission.

 

As I've already mentioned, between them they still only have a single Legion and who's to say that the Emperor doesn't know more about whats going on with those two than us the readers (i.e. the things foreshadowed in The Serpent Beneath)?

 

Not exposing things his sons mean to keep a secret makes absolute reasonable sense. Not telling his loyal sons that they are facing an additional Primarch they were previously unaware of makes no sense whatsoever.

It makes as much sense as him not telling them about the existance of the Chaos Gods, and he did exactly that.

[Wade Garrett]

I think what a lot of people aren't considering is what a feat the creation of the Primarchs was, with the sheer scale of science and sorcery involved, including some sort of compact or bargain with th Ruinous Powers themselves (depending on how accurate the vision the Gal Vorbak see in the First Heretic was), the Emperor was probably happy that most of the changes in his gestating heirs were minor things like Sang's wings or Russ's excessive body hair, vs him ending up with twenty piles of quivering protoplasm. One does not simply create a horde of semi divine beings without hitting a few snags along the way (see Paradise Lost and the Archangels, the Silamarillion and the Valar, etc.)

 

I would also like to throw in my two cents on the Wolves as executioners. I have no problem with some of them believing that, after all, some of the Word Bearers thought the Emperor wanted them to worship him as God, some of the Night Lords believed Big E was 100% behind their every act of child skinning....just because members of a Legion hold a certain belief doesn't mean it's completely empirical truth.

 

In Know No Fear, Kor Phereon tells a Word Bearer officer that Lorgar has already mastered the arts of warfare beyond what Guilliman is laying out in his Codex Astartes, are we now to accept that Aurelian is a better strategist and tactician the Master of Macragge, because two Horus Heresy characters say so?

 

And as for the Imperial officer who claims the Wolves are the most brutal and feral of all the Legions, he also says he has served with other Legions twice in the past, the Death G

[Wade Garrett]

And as for the Imperial officer who claims the Wolves are the most brutal and feral of all the Legions, he also says he has served with other Legions twice in the past, the Death Guard and the Blood Angels. Remember, this is before the Blood Angels were afflicted with their unfortunate tendency to occasionally go stark raving mad and drink the blood of enemy, ally, and panicking civilian bystander alike, as far as I can tell they were pretty much white hat knight in shining armor types.

 

Likewise the main things we know about the Pre Nurgle Death Guard are that they have near unbreakable formations and they are nearly impossible to kill. What I'm saying is that compared to those two forces, the Wolves may be the most brutal and feral Astartes ever. Had the officer served with the World Eaters or Night Lords (as an aside, one really must feel a pang of sympathy for those Imperial Army forces that were attached Kurze and Angron's boys) he might have had some different beliefs.

 

And now to really throw some fuel on the thread flames:

 

"Rogal Dorn possesed perhaps the finest military mind of all the Primarchs. It was as disciplined and ordered as Roboute Guilliman's, as courageous as the Lion's, yet still supple enough to allow for the flex of inspiration, the flash of battle zeal that had won Russ and the Khan so many victories."

 

Horus Rising, Page 130, said by Dan Abnett in his role as Omniscient Third Person Narrator. Ultramarines and Alpha Legionaries may now feel free to cry because their Primarchs are CANON inferior to the Lord of the Imperial Fists.

[Legatus]

If he can tell Corax about a hidden lab to go fetch some gene-seed samples, he can drop Dorn a note about there being two Alpha Legion Primarchs.

To what end? What meaning purpose would revealing Alpharius Omegons secret serve, beyond revealing their dual nature?

Oh, I dunno. In case one of the loyal Primarchs managed to hunt down and kill one of the two, so the loyalists know there is still the other one. Stuff like that.

 

 

It makes as much sense as him not telling them about the existance of the Chaos Gods, and he did exactly that.

Of cours, there is an "alternate 40K universe" out there, brought to us by two decades of Codices and WH40k source books, where it had been the main agenda of the Great Crusade to liberate the human worlds all over the galaxy from the tyranny of Chaos. But then GW made the "Horus Heresy" series, and all the things that made perfect sense in the 40K lore were apparently an obstacle to "telling gripping stories". But thanks for highlighting again why the Horus Heresy series is so incredibly damaging for 40k.

 

 

And now to really throw some fuel on the thread flames:

 

"Rogal Dorn possesed perhaps the finest military mind of all the Primarchs. It was as disciplined and ordered as Roboute Guilliman's, as courageous as the Lion's, yet still supple enough to allow for the flex of inspiration, the flash of battle zeal that had won Russ and the Khan so many victories."

 

Horus Rising, Page 130, said by Dan Abnett in his role as Omniscient Third Person Narrator. Ultramarines and Alpha Legionaries may now feel free to cry because their Primarchs are CANON inferior to the Lord of the Imperial Fists.

Of course, we already knew that Dan Abnett does not give much on "established background". His Horus Heresy novels are a continuing testament to that.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Legs, you are like the FOX NEWS of Bolter and Chainsword.

 

i give up trying with you.

 

WLK

[MadDoc]

Oh, I dunno. In case one of the loyal Primarchs managed to hunt down and kill one of the two, so the loyalists know there is still the other one. Stuff like that.

Thanks for illustrating your ignorance of how the Alpha Legion operate and how little impact such an occurance (or even the death of both) would actually make.

 

Of cours, there is an "alternate 40K universe" out there, brought to us by two decades of Codices and WH40k source books, where it had been the main agenda of the Great Crusade to liberate the human worlds all over the galaxy from the tyranny of Chaos. But then GW made the "Horus Heresy" series, and all the things that made perfect sense in the 40K lore were apparently an obstacle to "telling gripping stories".

Funny I'm familiar with the supposedly "alternate" 40K universe you're referring to and that was never the main agenda of the Great Crusade in that universe either. The Great Crusade's main agenda has always been re-uniting humanities lost colonies, some needing liberation from Xenos or Religious (Chaos generally) control, and bringing them under the yoke of the Imperium. None of that has changed. The secular Imperial Truth is designed to quash god worship in all its forms (and in so doing deny the Chaos Gods their worshippers), and the Imperial Crusade Fleets are still shown liberating worlds where the Chaos powers held influence crushing their "false religions" and bringing the enlightenment of the Imperial Truth. The only thing the Heresy series does with the addition of the Imperial Truth is add nuance to that era of setting and to such engagements.

 

I pity your inability (or is it unwillingness?) to appreciate the nuances the Heresy series is bringing to the background of the Great Crusade and Heresy era.

 

But thanks for highlighting again why the Horus Heresy series is so incredibly damaging for 40k.

Thanks for highlighting your inability/unwillingness to appreciate what the Heresy series is adding (Note - adding not changing) to the sparse/broadstrokes background regarding that era of the setting, and illustrating just how reactionary and hyperbolic it has made your response to it.

[Legatus]

Legs, you are like the FOX NEWS of Bolter and Chainsword.

Fox News is known for prefering the original versions of stories over retconned ones?

 

 

Of cours, there is an "alternate 40K universe" out there, brought to us by two decades of Codices and WH40k source books, where it had been the main agenda of the Great Crusade to liberate the human worlds all over the galaxy from the tyranny of Chaos. But then GW made the "Horus Heresy" series, and all the things that made perfect sense in the 40K lore were apparently an obstacle to "telling gripping stories".

Funny I'm familiar with the supposedly "alternate" 40K universe you're referring to and that was never the main agenda of the Great Crusade in that universe either.

"The Emperor never made the mistake of underestimating the threat of Chaos, and in order to meet that threat he put the best scientific brains on Earth to work. Weapons and spacecraft poured out of the Martian factories to bolster beleagured forces throughout the Galaxy.

The Emperor's most long-sighted plan to counter the insiduous influences of the Chaos Powers was the creation of the Primarchs: genetically engineered super-humans with god-like powers. The Emperor's intention was to create a whole race of super-humans from the genetic blueprint of the Primarchs. By making them loyal and strong he hoped that they would prove immune to the malign psychic influences of Chaos."

(1st Edition, 1990, Realms of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned, p. 177/178)

"By the time that the warp storms were ended, the Space Marines and other Imperial forces were ready to begin their reconquest of the galaxy. The forces of Chaos were already strong, and many human worlds had been taken over by Chaos Cultists or other aliens. It was a long hard struggle, but with every victory the Imperium grew stronger as new warriors joined the Great Crusade."

(1st Edition, 1990, Realms of Chaos - The Lost and the Damned, p. 178)

"During the Great Crusade massive armies of Space Marines spread out from Earth. Their task was to seek out and liberate human worlds throughout the galaxy, uniting all of humanity in a single mighty Imperium. The Great Crusade lasted for about two hundred years and saw some of the bloodiest fighting known up to those times. The worlds rediscovered by the Emperor's armies had been cut off from Earth for millennia. Some had degenerated to barbarity. Others had developed into sprawling hive worlds. Many were under the domination of aliens or had become corrupted by the evil of Chaos. All these worlds were gradually reconquered and brought back within the Imperium."

(2st Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 7)

"Whenever Roboute Guilliman freed a world from the tyranny of Orks, Chaos or other aliens, his first priority was to set up a self-supporting defence system."

(2st Edition Codex Ultramarines, p. 12)

As you can see, in 1st Edition, the entire creation of the Primarchs was explicitely motivated by the Emperor's will to oppose the Chaos Gods. (Who were responsible for the human worlds to be cut off from one another and for enslaving the majority of them.) Since 2nd Edition, the Emperor's personal history is not described in as much detail as it had been in 1st, and since then Chaos is just one of the major threats responsible for subjugating human worlds. I added the last quote to show that the Legions were openly described as combatting Chaos during the Crusade.

 

 

Thanks for highlighting your inability/unwillingness to appreciate what the Heresy series is adding (Note - adding not changing) to the sparse/broadstrokes background regarding that era of the setting

However, it is the changes I take issue with, thank you very much. The Legions not knowing about Chaos? That is a change. The Imperial agenda of non-religiosity? That is a change. Hundred thousand strong Legions? Change. Dorn is made overall commander over the loyalists? Change. The Alpha Legion siding with Horus because of an alien oracle, instead of because of their own pride? Change. The Space Wolves are ultimate terror monsters instead of people's heroes? Change. The entire battle for Calth? Change. The Ultramarines learning at the beginning of the Heresy about it? Change. This is not the "Horus Heresy" from the last twenty years of 40K lore. It has certain similarities (the obvious ones, like the involvement of the same Primarchs and Legions), but it is a very different story. As I had suggested earlier, this is essentially the "Star Wars Prequels" of 40k. A lot flashier and more elaborate than the classics, but just completely defiling them.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Except that you seem to be one of the few that think that the HH series is 'defiling' the history of 40k, whereas a large portion of SW fans actually do think the prequels shot everything to hell.

[Legatus]

I guess it is easier to know and cherish the Star Wars movies than it is to know and cherish "the 40K background". In particular people who started during 3rd of 4th Edition will only recently have been introduced to the older 2nd Edition material via the 5th Edition Codices. It is understandable that they would not be as attached to the elements that had not been mentioned in detail during 3rd and 4th Edition. Those who neither knew the 2nd Edition Codices nor the Index Astartes series knew practically nothing about the Horus Heresy and the fates of the different Primarchs and Legions prior to the Black Library material. It is understandable that they would eat up any information about the Primarchs and the Legions that would be offered, and not mind that much if that material contradicted previous stories about them.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Attached is one thing, dude, you're practically crusading against BL and GW for what they've been doing to the fluff recently - updating it. I get the whole respect the old stuff - hell, I suppose I even agree to a point with you. But imagine how much interest 40k would be generating if they kept reprinting Realms of Chaos and 1st and 2nd ed. codices over and over. Boo-ring.

[MadDoc]

Legatus, not a single thing in the quotes you provided counters anything I said. In fact, all you did was claim you'd proven me wrong, while roundly failing to provided any evidence that actually did so.

 

To me it seems, increasingly, like you're determined to confuse differing from how you think the Heresy was depicted, with actually differing from how the Heresy has been depicted.

 

I find your fluff snobbism particularly disagreeable, not to mention unwarranted, which coming from someone who is a self-confessed fluff purist is saying something. I've played 40K since its early days and have copies of most of its earliest material, which I'm fairly conversant with (even if I haven't picked up some of it in a while), and yet all of your replies are pitched at me like I'm some sort of noob with barely a grasp of even 5E background knowledge.

 

All of which leads me to agree with Wolf Lord Kieran, in that you appear to be a lost cause.

[Legatus]

Attached is one thing, dude, you're practically crusading against BL and GW for what they've been doing to the fluff recently - updating it. I get the whole respect the old stuff - hell, I suppose I even agree to a point with you. But imagine how much interest 40k would be generating if they kept reprinting Realms of Chaos and 1st and 2nd ed. codices over and over. Boo-ring.

One argument in favour of rewrites and drastic changes that can be brought forward is that "it sells, so it was a good decision". However, my counter question would be: Could GW/BL have remained more faithful to the previous lore and still have sold as many books? Could they have expanded the horus heresy narrative without drastically changing the background story of several Primarchs and Legions?

[Apothecary Vaddon]

We'll never know, I guess. The demographics of who thinks what of the fluff now are, unfortunately, skewed towards the more grand scale that BL has been putting forth recently.