Primarch Role(S)?

[Legatus]

Legatus, not a single thing in the quotes you provided counters anything I said. In fact, all you did was claim you'd proven me wrong, while roundly failing to provided any evidence that actually did so.

Umh, let me try that again:

 

Of cours, there is an "alternate 40K universe" out there, brought to us by two decades of Codices and WH40k source books, where it had been the main agenda of the Great Crusade to liberate the human worlds all over the galaxy from the tyranny of Chaos.

Funny I'm familiar with the supposedly "alternate" 40K universe you're referring to and that was never the main agenda of the Great Crusade in that universe either.

"The Emperor's most long-sighted plan to counter the insiduous influences of the Chaos Powers was the creation of the Primarchs (...) By the time that the warp storms were ended, the Space Marines and other Imperial forces were ready to begin their reconquest of the galaxy. The forces of Chaos were already strong, and many human worlds had been taken over by Chaos Cultists or other aliens."

 

 

I find your fluff snobbism particularly disagreeable

If I go through your posts in this thread, you seem to find a lot about me disagreeable.

 

 

Edit: I remember a lot of Space Wolves players found me "disagreeable" when I told them that the Space Wolves Chapter was not the size of a Legion and had actually been divided during the Second Founding. Some Black Templars players found me "disagreeable" when I told them that Dorn and not the Emperor had made Sigismund the first Emperor's Champion, and that originally he had been a mere Battle Brother, and not Captain of the Imperial Fists Legion's first company.

[Gree]

If I go through your posts in this thread, you seem to find a lot about me disagreeable.

 

You make good points, But you lose me utterly with your zeal, and you've turned other people against yourself with it as well, as least judging by reactions of others in this thread who have seemingly chose to drop out rather than continue to argue with you.

 

I guess it is easier to know and cherish the Star Wars movies than it is to know and cherish "the 40K background". In particular people who started during 3rd of 4th Edition will only recently have been introduced to the older 2nd Edition material via the 5th Edition Codices. It is understandable that they would not be as attached to the elements that had not been mentioned in detail during 3rd and 4th Edition. Those who neither knew the 2nd Edition Codices nor the Index Astartes series knew practically nothing about the Horus Heresy and the fates of the different Primarchs and Legions prior to the Black Library material. It is understandable that they would eat up any information about the Primarchs and the Legions that would be offered, and not mind that much if that material contradicted previous stories about them.

 

Or perhaps you might consider the possiblity that people actually do genuninely like the new and added chances and characterization over the prior fluff? Have you considered that you might be part of the small vocal minority?

 

Fox News is known for prefering the original versions of stories over retconned ones?

 

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but Fox News is infamous for not actually reviewing the material they critcise. Apart from a couple of books, you yourself have admitted you don't actually read the Horus Heresy novels.

[Legatus]

Or perhaps you might consider the possiblity that people actually do genuninely like the new and added chances and characterization over the prior fluff? Have you considered that you might be part of the small vocal minority?

People who play since 2nd Edition are a minority, aren't they?

 

 

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but Fox News is infamous for not actually reviewing the material they critcise. Apart from a couple of books, you yourself have admitted you don't actually read the Horus Heresy novels.

I am usually the guy throwing quotes at people... :) I generally try to read up on the parts that are being discussed (which is a lot easier if it is just about one Primarch and what he did or said). There was one case earlier in this thread where I made the mistake of going by MadDoc's description of how Deliverance Lost mentions "the intentional traits described for each of the Primarchs", coupled with memories of the passages in The First Heretic or Prospero Burns where people talk about how each of the Primarchs has inherited a particular element from the Emperor or similar descriptions. Turns out Deliverance Lost does not actually mention an intentioned trait for each of the Primarchs, just for "each" of those that are mentioned in the book. And now I'm the bad guy.

[Gree]

People who play since 2nd Edition are a minority, aren't they?

 

I don't see how playing has to do with anything. I have not played since Second Edition and I am well aware of the fluff from that era.

 

I am usually the guy throwing quotes at people... :)

 

I do not speak of your familarity with Codex sources. That is not relevant.

 

I generally try to read up on the parts that are being discussed (which is a lot easier if it is just about one Primarch and what he did or said). There was one case earlier in this thread where I made the mistake of going by MadDoc's description of how Deliverance Lost mentions "the intentional traits described for each of the Primarchs", coupled with memories of the passages in The First Heretic or Prospero Burns where people talk about how each of the Primarchs has inherited a particular element from the Emperor or similar descriptions. Turns out Deliverance Lost does not actually mention an intentioned trait for each of the Primarchs, just for "each" of those that are mentioned in the book. And now I'm the bad guy.

 

A piece of advice then. Read first. Judge later. Said element is only a minor part in a rather enjoyable novel.

[Legatus]

Not everyone makes the effort to dig up older edition source books like you do.

 

But do demonstrate my usual MO with the sources I am discussing, here is an on-topic quote from Deliverance Lost:

"Unnoticed by the others Alpharius walked around the circle of incubators until he came to the number 20. The last, always overlooked, his primarchs had begun their lives in this metal and glass construction. It looked the same as the others, no larger to account for the twins that had been nurtured within. Perhaps the Emperor had not intended for there to be Omegon and Alpharius. That the two had been nourished as one accounted for their strange bond, and perhaps their slighter build in comparison to their brother primarchs."

[Gree]

Not everyone makes the effort to dig up older edition source books like you do.

 

I think more people are aware of the Second Edition than you think.

 

But do demonstrate my usual MO with the sources I am discussing, here is an on-topic quote from Deliverance Lost:

"Unnoticed by the others Alpharius walked around the circle of incubators until he came to the number 20. The last, always overlooked, his primarchs had begun their lives in this metal and glass construction. It looked the same as the others, no larger to account for the twins that had been nurtured within. Perhaps the Emperor had not intended for there to be Omegon and Alpharius. That the two had been nourished as one accounted for their strange bond, and perhaps their slighter build in comparison to their brother primarchs."

 

I'm well aware of your discussion with MadDoc yes

[Bulwyf]

I'm still reading Know No Fear and there is a passage from DA that states, explicitly, that the Emperor intentionally created the primarchs to be different from one another and actively encouraged the different legions to evolve different strategies and techniques because uniformity was "weakness". It also states he explicitly encouraged the primarchs to develop rivalry and jealousy between each other because competition would make them stronger and keep them motivated. It then adds the Emperor felt that both himself and the more experienced, wiser primarchs like Horus/Dorn etc would stop that competition before it got out of hand.

 

I'm just tossing this in because it is relevant to the discussion. This is an out and out admission that the Emperor did have different roles in mind for the primarchs and this was before Chaos took hold of the caskets and scattered them.

[Legatus]

Intending specific roles and permitting individuality are two different pairs of shoes though.

[Bulwyf]

Intending specific roles and permitting individuality are two different pairs of shoes though.

 

Not according to what DA wrote in that novel. According to what he wrote the Emperor explicitly and knowingly designed the primarchs to be different from each other. This isn't to say that Chaos had no effect on them later on but the primarchs were in fact designed from the start to be distinct and individual personalities.

[Legatus]

But "he made them different" is still not the same as "he made them for specific purposes".

[Bulwyf]

But "he made them different" is still not the same as "he made them for specific purposes".

 

According to the novel that is exactly what the Emperor wanted: he created them as individuals to each go on and develop different techniques and strategies to compete with one another because the Emperor believed uniformity was "weakness". The only stop he had in place in case the competition got too personal or out of control was himself and the more prominent primarchs keeping it controlled.

[Legatus]

According to the novel that is exactly what the Emperor wanted: he created them as individuals to each go on and develop different techniques and strategies to compete with one another

That's what I am saying. He did not make them all identical, and then let them "do their own thing". But he did not create one with the specific intention of him becoming a siege expert whose Legion would be used for garrison duties, one or two that would be rapid orbital strike specialists, one or two who were meant to act as stealth experts. That is just how they eventually turned out, based on what experiences they acquired growing up in their different environments.

[Marshal Rohr]

I don't think he gets that.

[WolfGuardVortek]

Honestly, I regard Abnett with a grain of salt. Does he right good stories? Yes, he often does. However he seemly throw out very out of place ideas with out thinking about the conquests.

[Bulwyf]

According to the novel that is exactly what the Emperor wanted: he created them as individuals to each go on and develop different techniques and strategies to compete with one another

That's what I am saying. He did not make them all identical, and then let them "do their own thing". But he did not create one with the specific intention of him becoming a siege expert whose Legion would be used for garrison duties, one or two that would be rapid orbital strike specialists, one or two who were meant to act as stealth experts. That is just how they eventually turned out, based on what experiences they acquired growing up in their different environments.

 

I don't think he meant for this specific primarch to be mr. siege guy or that primarch to be crazed frontal assault guy (funny though how many legions/primarchs are frontal assault melee specialists) but he did imagine that *one of* those primarchs would fill this niche or that niche. And that by having a variety of different techniques and specialties that the Emperor could then have more "tools" in his tool box for galactic conquest.

[Marshal Rohr]

So what your saying is that the emperor created twenty subordinates in the hopes that they would be unique with their own capabilities...

 

Sounds alot like what Legatus said. What Legs is saying didn't happen is that the Emperor made the Primarch VI to be his executioner. He didn't make XVI to be his second. He didnt make XX to be a spymaster. Those things came as the grew up and found their niche.

[Bulwyf]

So what your saying is that the emperor created twenty subordinates in the hopes that they would be unique with their own capabilities...

 

Sounds alot like what Legatus said. What Legs is saying didn't happen is that the Emperor made the Primarch VI to be his executioner. He didn't make XVI to be his second. He didnt make XX to be a spymaster. Those things came as the grew up and found their niche.

 

I believe Legatus was saying earlier in the thread that it was Chaos alone that accounted for some of the differences in the primarchs and their environments they grew up in and the Emperor did not have anything to do with how varied the final result was. If that is incorrect then Legatus can feel free to correct it. I was posting that excerpt from the latest HH novel to show that Abnett rather explicitly states that it was in fact the Emperor who originally designed them all to be different and for them to develop different military strategies and techniques as a result.

 

I do agree with Legatus that I don't think he stood over an incubator pod and said "This one here will grow up to be sullen but sturdy and will be a great siege specialist. So we'll just make him Mr. Siege Guy and this guy over here will have lupine DNA and will run around in fur and be a frontal assault melee guy and oh yeah! I'll make him my most loyal legion so I can use them as executioners."

[Legatus]

What I am opposed to is the notion that the Emperor imbued every Primarch with one particular aspect of himself, or that he intentionally made them for a specific purpose. That they were predestined to turn out more or less how they did from the start (without the flaws that led to their corruption). The one or the other has been suggested in a few Horus heresy novels, some of which mentioned in the original post here.

 

I don't really have a problem with the notion that the Emperor allowed genetic variation instead of producing twenty clones.

[oreryan]

there is any particular reason why you are so oppossed to the idea of the roles?? no tryin to be a jerk its a honest question

 

i get what u say about individuality and not a predetermined role and im inclined to share your thoughts, but the idea of predetermination has some appeal too dont you think

 

after all we re discussing about fluff that comes from a miniature game =P

[Bulwyf]

What I am opposed to is the notion that the Emperor imbued every Primarch with one particular aspect of himself, or that he intentionally made them for a specific purpose. That they were predestined to turn out more or less how they did from the start (without the flaws that led to their corruption). The one or the other has been suggested in a few Horus heresy novels, some of which mentioned in the original post here.

 

I don't really have a problem with the notion that the Emperor allowed genetic variation instead of producing twenty clones.

 

I actually agree with the first part of what you said but I also disagree that he had already determined which primarch would find himself to be "x" specialist. I do think the Emperor did impart one particular aspect of himself into each one and without going into detail on each one I think you can make a case that the lore supports that notion. It also helps bolster that argument that some of the interior dialogue in the HH novels explicitly state that the primarchs themseves believed themselves to embody one or more aspects of the Emperor.

 

I do agree with some of what you've said in this thread and in others. I find it sad that some of the long established lore has been kicked to the curb in the HH novels and some rather dubious new elements have been introduced. I still find it odd how the Alpha Legion went from feeling slighted and not taken seriously and wanted to prove their new tactics were viable so they joined with Horus somehow turned into well the Old Ones basically show up and tell them that Chaos either can be beaten at great cost of humanity or a very long drawn out war will take place and that Chaos will win at the end.

[Legatus]

there is any particular reason why you are so oppossed to the idea of the roles?? no tryin to be a jerk its a honest question

I just don't like retcons, and this, while seemingly a minor detail, would be a fundamental change in the origin story of the Primarchs. Previously, we have individual origin stories for each Primarch, where and how he grew up, and that perhaps the Chaos Gods played a bigger role in his development. In the older sources, the Primarchs were ripped from the Emperor's hands and then developed into their mature versions without his influence. Now some Horus Heresy novels suggest that he might have intended for them to turn out the way they did.

 

I guess this rubs me the wrong way because it is not the first instance of where the Black Library re-telling of the Horus Heresy changes the Emperor's involvement and motivation. He now has an agenda of suppressing religion, he did not have that before. He now is not telling anyone about the threat of Chaos, where before Chaos had been one of the main antagonists to the developing Imperium during the Crusade. Some novels even suggest that he made some sort of deal with the Chaos Gods to create the Primarchs (though this might be a misunderstanding and/or an intentional lie by whoever alien or Chaos entity which presented that vision). In previous sources he simply retired from the Crusade, but now he has a secret project he did not tell anyone about. All of this is perhaps meant to turn the Emperor into a more shady character, whereas in previous sources he had been unambiguously "good" and was actively opposing the Chaos Gods.

[Conn Eremon]

Now some Horus Heresy novels suggest that he might have intended for them to turn out the way they did.

 

Having read the Horus Heresy novels, I don't feel that at any point it is as blatant as you make it in this one line. There is some predetermining going on in the Emperor's side of things, but it doesn't, at any point, seem to suggest that the end results are in line with that predetermination. They have shown some similarities between the end result and the attempt at predetermination for a handful, and that is all. That suggests that the Emperor's attempts at predetermining his Primarch sons had been a factor in their development. A factor that varies greatly. For instance, at no point in the discussion of Perturabo's genetic make-up is it suggested that he was predetermined towards siege-craft, it specifies only those quirks that may have led to a predilection towards bionic enhancements. Similarly, at no point does it suggest that Primarch XX was supposed to be twin Primarchs, just that there are less growth hormone indicators than with the others. It could be argued that he therefore was intended as a spymaster, given the possible use that such a genetic tweak could allow, but that would just be a possible interpretation of the purpose of it. It's not actually stated.

[Unintentional Batman]

I just don't like retcons, and this, while seemingly a minor detail, would be a fundamental change in the origin story of the Primarchs.

 

Err... Aren't the primarchs as a whole a "retcon"? So by your rationale you cannot even like the concept of primarchs in the first place.

 

*hugs the Rogue Trader book*

[Legatus]

Err... Aren't the primarchs as a whole a "retcon"? So by your rationale you cannot even like the concept of primarchs in the first place.

Had I been around during the changes during 1st Edition I might have felt the same way. On the other hand, there were barely three years to get attached to the initial draft of 1st Edition material before the later source books of 1st Edition started to alter the background, whereas now we had almost twenty years of the "2nd Edition" background.

[Unintentional Batman]

Had I been around during the changes during 1st Edition I might have felt the same way.

 

I see.

 

So your "i don't like retcons" principles are really meaningless, as you only judge some retcons unworthy and not others. It's all fine to gripe about retcons in general, but you more or less lose all believability on this account now that we saw you pick and choose "good" retcons and "bad" retcons. Not that it means you cannot dislike some of the recent changes, just that your status as an anti-retcon paladin is now gone and use of the oh, so convinient "i' don't like retcons" line seems way hypocritical coming from you now. ^_^