Primarch Role(S)?

[Wade Garrett]

Not to mention that Guilliman had planned to have a word with Angron about his Legion's conduct, but considered Leman Russ one of his "dauntless few".

 

And Lion'El Johnson thinks Guilliman is Horus with better fashion sense and is doing everything he can to undermine the Ultramarines' efforts during the Heresy (source, "The Lion", by Gav Thorpe). Primarchs can make comically bad judgement calls with the best of us.

 

Rob's dauntless few also included Ferrous Manus and the Iron Hands, whose defining characteristics seem to be slicing parts of themselves off and replacing them with bionics, and ignoring collateral damage among civilian populations or allied Imperial Guard troops because "the flesh is weak!", IMHO membership in the dauntless few is a more a mark of whether or not Guilliman thinks he can get you to follow his orders, which is why the prone to haring off on their own Primarchs like Angron or, as specifically mentioned in the passage you're quoting, the Khan, can't get a seat in Rob's special club.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The purpose in that line is to establish that the Space Wolves are "scary, even for a Space Marine". Which they are: even if they rank only #3 on the Official Most Terrifying Legions List that's still a lot scarier than your average Marine, and establishing that is basically the point. The line's purpose would be sort of defeated if instead it were, "the Space Wolves are the most brutal and terrifying Legion. Well, apart from the Night Lords, obviously. And the World Eaters, I guess. And I don't like yellow, so the Imperial Fists kind of creep me out. Well, the Space Wolves are pretty scary, anyway".

 

"I've heard the stories about the World Eaters and the Night Lords, of warriors closer to nightmares than a true Astartes. The Space Wolves... they rank up there with those two Legions..."

 

Easy method of having the Space Wolves being "scary, even for a Space Marine", without the risk of saying the Space Wolves are better at terror/genocide than the World Eaters/Night Lords. I can understand adding depth to the Legion by expanding on their background, I just don't think it should be done in a way to take the limelight of two other Legions, purposefully or not, especially when it's so radically different from everything else we've been told about the Legion. It'd be like the White Scars book having a guy mention how the White Scars are the utter, utter best at siege warfare, that any time you want a city cleared, you want the White Scars, and yet making no mention of the Imperial Fists or Iron Warriors. Sure, it can be taken to mean the guy just hasn't heard of those two Legions, but that's not the impression it gives. The impression it gives is that the White Scars are the very best Legion at siege warfare.

 

Seriously, you shouldn't make out the Space Wolves to be the "worst of the worst" when the background mentions absolutely nothing at all that Russ or the Wolves have ever done that begins to approach what the World Eaters/Night Lords do on a routine basis. Make them scary, sure, but don't act like they've been risking censure, like the Night Lords were, or earned the disapproval (tactics-wise) of most of the other Primarchs, like both Angron and Night Haunter did. Even the book itself showed absolutely nothing out of the ordinary that the Wolves did. What, they committed genocide against a xenos planet? What Legion hasn't? They're good at close-quarters fighting? So are the Blood Angels, World Eaters, Luna Wolves, hell, pretty much every other Legion. We're simply told, both in-universe and by the author, that the Wolves are so damned scary, but never shown how. It's a terrible retcon, and terribly written at that.

[Marshal Rohr]

If you notice the Dauntless Few are all loyalists. Their defining attribute is steadfast loyalty. Guilliman knew that they were the Primarchs that could be trusted to put the Imperium before all else.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Seriously, you shouldn't make out the Space Wolves to be the "worst of the worst" when the background mentions absolutely nothing at all that Russ or the Wolves have ever done that begins to approach what the World Eaters/Night Lords do on a routine basis. Make them scary, sure, but don't act like they've been risking censure, like the Night Lords were, or earned the disapproval (tactics-wise) of most of the other Primarchs, like both Angron and Night Haunter did. Even the book itself showed absolutely nothing out of the ordinary that the Wolves did. What, they committed genocide against a xenos planet? What Legion hasn't? They're good at close-quarters fighting? So are the Blood Angels, World Eaters, Luna Wolves, hell, pretty much every other Legion. We're simply told, both in-universe and by the author, that the Wolves are so damned scary, but never shown how. It's a terrible retcon, and terribly written at that.

I must be missing something - is it a codex where they're portrayed as super scary? Because I haven't got that vibe from Battle of the Fang, Prospero Burns, or any of the other novels out there.

[Legatus]

I must be missing something

Apparently this, from Prospero Burns:

"'I'd heard stories. We'd all heard stories.'

'What kind of stories?'

'That there are Space Marines and there are Space Marines. That there are supermen and there are monsters. That in order to breed the Astartes to perfection, the Emperor Who Guides Us All has gone too far once or twice, and made things he should not have made. Things that should have been stillborn or drowned in a sack.'

'Feral things?' asked Hawser.

'The worst of them all are the Space Wolves,' replied Korine."

IIRC he goes on to describe how the Space Wolves attacked an Eldar Craftworld and destroyed it without mercy, and that he would not wish the Space Wolves on his worst enemy.

[Gree]

I must be missing something

Apparently this, from Prospero Burns:

"'I'd heard stories. We'd all heard stories.'

'What kind of stories?'

'That there are Space Marines and there are Space Marines. That there are supermen and there are monsters. That in order to breed the Astartes to perfection, the Emperor Who Guides Us All has gone too far once or twice, and made things he should not have made. Things that should have been stillborn or drowned in a sack.'

'Feral things?' asked Hawser.

'The worst of them all are the Space Wolves,' replied Korine."

IIRC he goes on to describe how the Space Wolves attacked an Eldar Craftworld and destroyed it without mercy, and that he would not wish the Space Wolves on his worst enemy.

 

Again, perspective. Said officer may have considered the calculated destruction of the Space Wolves to be worse than the brutality of the World Eaters or Night Lords, or he may have heard stories about the other two and decided to dismiss him. I'm not really sure it's wise to base everything off the opinions of one poorly informed Imperial Army officer.

[Lord_Caerolion]

While that's true, you've got to be careful of presentation. Don't spend most of your book (and the author commentary on said book) hyping up the terrifying, genocidal qualities of the Space Wolves, presenting them as some sort of anti-Astartes super-weapon, when previous background hasn't indicated anything of the sort, if you don't intend it to be taken as true. It may be that it's just hearsay (and that's what I believe as well), it doesn't change the fact that the Wolves are being made out to be better that two other Legions at their specialties.

The Wolves have always benefitted from special attention. They're one of the few Chapters the Ecclesiarch/Inquisition won't try to touch, they're apparently nigh-immune to Chaos, and thanks to this book, we've got SW fans assuming that the Wolves are some sort of superweapon against other Astartes, regardless of circumstances. After all, they're the Executioners...

 

Personally, the book wouldn't have been as bad if there had been at least one statement indicating that the Wolves might be just a little full of themselves, but we don't. All we get are statements as to how utterly awesome the Wolves are, and that they're the worst Legion of all of them, yet none of the other Primarchs have any problems with them, despite the supposed same tactics causing Night Haunter/Angron to be ostracised by their brothers, that nobody would ever want to fight them, that they're purpose-built to destroy other Legions, that they're resistant to psychic powers (thanks to their talismans), that they're super-disciplined, rather than barbarians, that their psykers have special immunity from the Nikaea Edict (because they use "nature spirits" rather than the Warp...), all without showing a single negative facet of the Legion. They used to be unruly and superstitious semi-barbarians, but no, that's all just an act to disguise just how awesome the Space Wolves are. No Legion that awesome can have a flaw.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

I must be missing something

Apparently this, from Prospero Burns:

"'I'd heard stories. We'd all heard stories.'

'What kind of stories?'

'That there are Space Marines and there are Space Marines. That there are supermen and there are monsters. That in order to breed the Astartes to perfection, the Emperor Who Guides Us All has gone too far once or twice, and made things he should not have made. Things that should have been stillborn or drowned in a sack.'

'Feral things?' asked Hawser.

'The worst of them all are the Space Wolves,' replied Korine."

IIRC he goes on to describe how the Space Wolves attacked an Eldar Craftworld and destroyed it without mercy, and that he would not wish the Space Wolves on his worst enemy.

Thanks - must've missed that. I've only read the book once, after all, hehe.

They used to be unruly and superstitious semi-barbarians, but no, that's all just an act to disguise just how awesome the Space Wolves are. No Legion that awesome can have a flaw.

Well, they are the Executioners. I feel like the point is, would the Night Lords be the Legion to take out another? Not really, they're too rebellious. Would the World Eaters? They're the horrific weapon you unleash when you...well...really want to destroy every bit of civilization out there. However, they don't take well to getting ordered around. But the Wolves? They're the ones who have the balls to deal with it. They're the ones you can trust to get the job done and nothing more, nothing less, and they do it in a Space Viking sort of way. Korine pretty obviously never was around the Eaters, but has heard of them, as evidenced by 'once or twice'. He's probably also heard rumors about the NL. But without that context, he'll believe that the SW (according to the rumors he's heard, which could be anything - truth or untruth) are the most brutal of legions, so I don't really take what he said at face value.

WE -> brutal genocide, no controlling that. BL -> Bane, can't control 'em. SW -> the loyal hounds. That's the feeling I got from the novels, and anything else is embellishment for the purposes of who the novel is for. PB was for SW fans. I mean, in your estimation, what are they, if not the perfect executioners? Are they just random space barbarians given cool armor? Or space vikings, who are okay at raiding? I guess I'm not very attuned to what they were before PB besides SM with long beards and that's it.

[Bulwyf]

I much prefer the William King version of Space Wolves to what Abnett did to them.

[Marshal Rohr]

William King had a fat space marine. A FAT space marine. He had drunk space marines. He had argumentative space marines.

 

Abnett had lethal space marines.

 

One of these authors decided to write like space marines are supposed to be, the other decided to humanize them and make them relatable.

[Bulwyf]

William King had a fat space marine. A FAT space marine. He had drunk space marines. He had argumentative space marines.

 

Abnett had lethal space marines.

 

One of these authors decided to write like space marines are supposed to be, the other decided to humanize them and make them relatable.

 

 

King's Sw were just as lethal. They also had more personality and humor. The fat space marine was explained in the novel as to why he was fat and Fenrisian ale was also explained that they intentionally made it to counteract their immune system to get drunk.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

But seriously. Fat? Like, fat.

[Wolf Lord Conan]

Seems like the night lord doesn't like people being more scary than him. But you can't say that it's not real and that world eaters are more brutal and night lords are scarier. We don't make the universe they do and they wrote it so it's fact

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, we can, in that it's just the in-universe opinion of a Guardsman, but even if it were true, then we have every right to complain if the Space Wolves out-savage the World Eaters, as that's the whole thing about the World Eaters, that they're the most brutal Legion, that you only unleash them if you really don't want anyone left alive. The Night Lords whole concept, as well as that of their Primarch, is that they're the terror experts. They use fear as a weapon, and do it so effectively that most of the other Primarchs dislike, if not outright hate them. To have the Space Wolves suddenly come along, and apparently do it better with none of the consequences, cheapens the Night Lords.

 

 

As for what the Wolves should be, I believe that they're one of the most loyal Legions, that they are ferocious in assault, but that they care about the common man. They shouldn't be a hated and reviled Legion, like they're being made out to be, but rather a sort of folk-hero Legion to the Imperium, that does its best to minimise civilian losses. You know, like what every bit of background other than Prospero Burns describes them as. The book didn't just expand upon them, it reversed the perception of them in the eyes of the Imperials. When you're thinking of what to do with your faction, and decide "hey, what if we got everything about what the Wolves are like in every other source, and did the complete opposite of that", then you're doing something horribly, horribly wrong.

You don't out-terror the Night Lords and out-brutal the World Eaters in the same way you don't out-mech the Iron Hands, or out-flame the Salamanders, and so on.

 

Still, I think we might be getting a little off-topic here.

 

Back on-topic, I've got to say that I'm not a fan of the Primarchs having such clear-cut roles. Were the Primarchs created different? Sure. However, I don't believe the Emperor went "well I'll need an Executioner... better add in some wolf DNA to make that happen!" He may have pre-determined the personalities of each Primarch to a greater or lesser degree, but they weren't custom-designed for such specific roles as that. Some Wolves may have it in their head that they're the executioners, but we know from Aurelian that the Night Lords are also potential executioners (they destroy the Word Bearers alongside the Ultramarines in one potential future of Lorgar). Rogal Dorn became the Emperors Praetorian because of his unbreakable loyalty and his aptitude for defensive tactics, etc.

 

In closing, the Primarchs ended up with specialties, but those weren't gene-coded into them, and are far less clear-cut than the "role theory".

[Marshal Rohr]

Seems like the night lord doesn't like people being more scary than him. But you can't say that it's not real and that world eaters are more brutal and night lords are scarier. We don't make the universe they do and they wrote it so it's fact

 

No, it's not a fact at all. The space wolves are not scarier than the night lords or more brutal than the world eaters. You've got material newer than Prospero Burns describing them opposite of Abnett, so by your logic that is fact.

 

 

In fact immconcerned for your understanding of 40k in general. What happens when two authors say something happened with the same character at the exact same time, like what MKar is doing in the closing years of M41?

 

You seem to really want to be a scary legion (and I feel for you, that's how I like to imagine my version of space wolves), but ultimately many authors have wrote them many ways and each representation is as valid as the others.

 

 

 

And yes. A fat space marine. With a very very shallow excuse as to why he was fat.

[Gaius Atticus]

Well, we can, in that it's just the in-universe opinion of a Guardsman, but even if it were true, then we have every right to complain if the Space Wolves out-savage the World Eaters, as that's the whole thing about the World Eaters, that they're the most brutal Legion, that you only unleash them if you really don't want anyone left alive. The Night Lords whole concept, as well as that of their Primarch, is that they're the terror experts. They use fear as a weapon, and do it so effectively that most of the other Primarchs dislike, if not outright hate them. To have the Space Wolves suddenly come along, and apparently do it better with none of the consequences, cheapens the Night Lords.

I think it's ok to argue that the SW are the most brutal, as unlike most SM chapters they will use more than the necessary force to take down their opponents. Definitions of brutal are: harsh/ferocious.

 

I think a better way to describe the WE would be violent - acting with or characterized by uncontrolled, strong, rough force. That's exactly what the WE are. Uncontrolled. So it could be OK to say the SW are more brutal, but maybe not as violent.

 

As you say Night Lords are not necessarily violent/brutal/over the top, but rather they strike fear into opponents.

[WolfGuardVortek]

Except... The Night Lords are more brutal and over the top then the Space Wolves. They posses a lot longer list of atrocities. Also.. Tsagualsa just Tsagualsa.

[Wade Garrett]

As for what the Wolves should be, I believe that they're one of the most loyal Legions, that they are ferocious in assault, but that they care about the common man. They shouldn't be a hated and reviled Legion, like they're being made out to be, but rather a sort of folk-hero Legion to the Imperium, that does its best to minimise civilian losses.

 

So you'd rather the Wolves steal the gimmick of the Salamanders and Ultramarines than the Night Lords and World Eaters. Okay........... :(

Honestly, some of you guys are acting like there "brutal" is a finite quality in the 40k universe, and any time a BL author says one Legion or Chapter is brutal it automatically makes every other Legion out there less brutal. I'm fairly certain it doesn't work that way.

 

Did the Space Wolves shine in their Horus Heresy book? Sure they did, the same way the Alpha Legion, Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, and Word Bearers shone in their books. When the Death Guard finally get their showcase novel, I am not buying it to hear about how they almost as good as the Iron Hands at grinding infantry assaults, third behind the Imperial Fists and Emperor's Children in obstinately holding position, and were the sixth scariest legion over all back when they were the Dusk Raiders. I want ALL DEATH GUARD, ALL THE TIME. Not like the Alpha Legion showcase that was Deliverance Lost (Poor Raven Guard!).

 

 

You don't out-terror the Night Lords and out-brutal the World Eaters in the same way you don't out-mech the Iron Hands, or out-flame the Salamanders, and so on.

 

The Iron Warriors are said to be as good in close quarters combat as the World Eaters and Blood Angels("The Iron Within", by Rob Sanders), and Perturabo was a mech expert who could out engineer any of the Martian adepts, a feat I never heard of Manus matching. So obviously they're a Legion of Mary Sues who have ruined 40k for ever, and we should all put on sack cloth and ashes and weep. Or not.

 

And Haegr the Mighty was big boned, not fat, as all of you would know if you possesed the tiniest quantity of the manly Fenrisian virtues.

[Legatus]

Honestly, some of you guys are acting like there "brutal" is a finite quality in the 40k universe, and any time a BL author says one Legion or Chapter is brutal it automatically makes every other Legion out there less brutal. I'm fairly certain it doesn't work that way.

Saying that the Space Wolves are the worst of all the Legions in terms of untamed brutality, and so horrifying that you would not wish them on your worst enemy, and are only allowed to exist so they could eventually be used to take down another Legion, then that does diminish the status of the World Eaters and the Night Lords. The Space Wolves are not simly "also very brutal", as you seem to suggest. They are the worst of them all. And they would kick every other Legion's butt, because that's the only reason the Emperor keeps them around instead of disbanding them.

[Wade Garrett]

And yet both Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons agree that if it hadn't been for the presence of the Silent Sisterhood and the Custodes, Leman Russ and all his pups would have been deep fried by the combined might of Prospero's sorcerers. (Tzeentch triggering the 1k Sons flesh change mid battle was a bit of a factor as well.) Something of a poor showing for the !BESTEST LEJEN EVAR11! but what the heck.

[Bulwyf]

But seriously. Fat? Like, fat.

 

It wasn't all fat. Not all gene seed is created equal. There are flaws in gene seed. You ever wonder why aren't all the SM the same height and width with their arm length and wing span also the same? I wish more authors would show more diversity that William King did with the Space Wolves now that you mention it.

[Bulwyf]

Honestly, some of you guys are acting like there "brutal" is a finite quality in the 40k universe, and any time a BL author says one Legion or Chapter is brutal it automatically makes every other Legion out there less brutal. I'm fairly certain it doesn't work that way.

Saying that the Space Wolves are the worst of all the Legions in terms of untamed brutality, and so horrifying that you would not wish them on your worst enemy, and are only allowed to exist so they could eventually be used to take down another Legion, then that does diminish the status of the World Eaters and the Night Lords. The Space Wolves are not simly "also very brutal", as you seem to suggest. They are the worst of them all. And they would kick every other Legion's butt, because that's the only reason the Emperor keeps them around instead of disbanding them.

 

And to add that despite the lore for what almost twenty years showing them as space Vikings (and cool ones at that personally speaking) suddenly they aren't really barbarians in furs they just pretend to be to trick others and to delude themselves to some degree. Oh those Abnett Space Wolves, what a collection:

 

More savage than the World Eaters

More scarier than the Night Lords

More focused than the Ultramarines

More loyal than the Imperial Fists

 

And! And! So awesome sauce that they are literally kept around to kill off other Legions that the Emperor decides to get rid of.

 

If this was tabletop gaming I would ban Dan Abnett from my group for god mod complex.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

But seriously. Fat? Like, fat.

 

It wasn't all fat. Not all gene seed is created equal. There are flaws in gene seed. You ever wonder why aren't all the SM the same height and width with their arm length and wing span also the same? I wish more authors would show more diversity that William King did with the Space Wolves now that you mention it.

But dude.

Fat.

I understand height diversity for Space Marines, I get that some might not have the muscle mass that others do, but I refuse to believe that any Space Marine has ever had a hint of porkiness to his figure. I feel like it's the one case in the excuse which 'big boned' is actually valid.

[Bulwyf]

But seriously. Fat? Like, fat.

 

It wasn't all fat. Not all gene seed is created equal. There are flaws in gene seed. You ever wonder why aren't all the SM the same height and width with their arm length and wing span also the same? I wish more authors would show more diversity that William King did with the Space Wolves now that you mention it.

But dude.

Fat.

I understand height diversity for Space Marines, I get that some might not have the muscle mass that others do, but I refuse to believe that any Space Marine has ever had a hint of porkiness to his figure. I feel like it's the one case in the excuse which 'big boned' is actually valid.

 

Did you read the novels he was in? His gene seed flaw made him eat more than his body could metabolize and it made him wide. It wasn't all fat and it was made clear I thought the guy in question was pretty freakin' strong due to the added mass. Again not all gene seed is the same.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

But seriously. Fat? Like, fat.

 

It wasn't all fat. Not all gene seed is created equal. There are flaws in gene seed. You ever wonder why aren't all the SM the same height and width with their arm length and wing span also the same? I wish more authors would show more diversity that William King did with the Space Wolves now that you mention it.

But dude.

Fat.

I understand height diversity for Space Marines, I get that some might not have the muscle mass that others do, but I refuse to believe that any Space Marine has ever had a hint of porkiness to his figure. I feel like it's the one case in the excuse which 'big boned' is actually valid.

 

Did you read the novels he was in? His gene seed flaw made him eat more than his body could metabolize and it made him wide. It wasn't all fat and it was made clear I thought the guy in question was pretty freakin' strong due to the added mass. Again not all gene seed is the same.

They were the first 40k novels I read. In other words, the only things I remember are Ragnar being able to break a psychic hold on his body and also blowing up a tank with a grenade. Oh, and something about a forest, a boat, and orks.