Primarch Role(S)?

[Marshal Rohr]

This isn't a middle class father and husband who works constantly to support his

Family and makes the understandable choice between exercise and relaxing when he's got Some free time. It's a warrior who's whole existence is devoted to perfection.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Yup.

[Bulwyf]

This isn't a middle class father and husband who works constantly to support his

Family and makes the understandable choice between exercise and relaxing when he's got Some free time. It's a warrior who's whole existence is devoted to perfection.

 

 

So what? The gene seed he had in him was flawed which means nothing he or an Apothecary could do would change it. It is like blaming people for sickle cell anemia or in my case having diabetes. It was in his gene seed. There was nothing he could do. He could "work out" 24/7 and he still would have eaten more mass than his body could cope with thus leading him to being "fat" which even in the novels King points out it wasn't all "fat" and the guy was very strong as a result of the extra mass.

 

I find it a little unrealistic that apparently you two think all Space Marines are the same and no gene seed imperfection can exist that would have a negative quality to it.

[Marshal Rohr]

I think all space wolves are super humanly fit. I don't think they are all red haired, 7' 5', 350 lbs.

[Wade Garrett]

This isn't a middle class father and husband who works constantly to support his

Family and makes the understandable choice between exercise and relaxing when he's got Some free time. It's a warrior who's whole existence is devoted to perfection.

 

You need to google and youtube legendary No Holds Barred champion Fedor Emmelianko or K-1 kickboxing superstar Mark Hunt. Both of these guys put roofs over their heads and food in their families mouths by fighting and training. Both had midsections much closer to a walk in cooler than a six pack. Some people are just stocky, no matter what they eat or how much they exercise. It certainly doesn't stop those two from being monstrously athletic and tough.

(Yes, yes, I know, real world, world where we achieve FTL speed by taking short cuts through Hell and fight with chainsaw swords. Still!)

 

 

And I believe I have found the passage from Prospero Burns that has everyone calling for Dan Abnett's head.

 

+Do you know why I called both of you here today?+ The Emperor's telepathic voice thundered, as his face shifted back and forth from Clint Eastwood as the Man with No Name and Bill Cosby as Dr. Huxtable. Curze said nothing, all of his attention focused on running his fingers over his new baby skin cloak. Angron was much more forthcoming.

 

"Do you want us to hit something with axes?" the Lord of the Twelfth Legion bellowed, leaping to his feet in excitement.

 

+No Angron. Sit down. What I want to do is ask you both a simple question....why can't you be more like Leman?+

That got Curze's attention.

"More like Leman Russ? Father, look at me! I'm wearing a cloak made out of skinned babies! I'm terrifying! Rebel forces drop their guns and soil themselves when they hear a RUMOR that I and my Legion MIGHT be headed in system. I brought law and order to the most wretched hive of scum and villiany in the galaxy and did it without ever knowing a parent's love or the companionship of a another human being!"

+Yes, Konrad, you are wearing a cloak made of baby skin. Helpless, harmless babies. Leman's cloak is made from the skin of vicious Fenrisian dire wolves, that can tear tanks apart with their teeth. Are you starting to understand why he's scarier? And another thing. Leman never had a human family either. He was raised by wolves, but you don't hear him moping about it all the time, do you? Honestly, it's like having a emo kid command 1/20th of my legions. Give it a rest+

 

"Father!" Angron bellowed, his face screwed up in the unaccustomed position of contemplation. "Surely you can't mean that I and my Eaters of Worlds should be more like Russ and the Wolves. We have slaughtered entire civilizations in your name, hewing down even the buildings with our mighty axes!"

 

+Yes, yes you have. And while you lot are taking decades to chop everything to bits with your axes, the Wolves are dropping the enemies own space stations on them, destroying their civilization in minutes as opposed to years. Also, when I found Leman, he was the High King of his whole entire planet. When I found YOU, you were stuck in the moutains with a few dozen blood crazed lunatics, being hunted like an animal by the entire governing apparatus of your planet. You have a lot to learn from Leman+

 

Angron responded in his usual manner...by drawing his chain axe and attacking the first thing he saw. Unfortunately for him, the first thing he saw was his own feet. Gorefather cut cleanly through his ankles, and the Red Angel of the World Eaters toppled to the floor, screaming in unutterable rage.

The Emperor looked at his beserk gene son, who was now attempting to murder the floor he was lying on for having the audacity to interrupt his mighty battle with his own feet. Then he looked at the Night Haunter, who was dragging his fearful lightning claws back and forth across his own wrists, muttering that no one could understand the torment he lived with every day.

 

+You know, Malcador+ the Emperor said, his face momentarily shifting to that of Christopher Lee as his thundering nonverbal communication conveyed a disgusted sigh +Some days I think the wrong two Primarchs got lost+

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Holy :lol:. Dude. That was the funniest thing I read today.

Wow.

+10000000000.

[frostclaw222]

Two things:

 

1) Has nobody here heard of the term "unreliable narrator"? 90% of what's written in the fluff, both pre- and post-retcon, is supposedly based on historical accounts that the Inquisition has had thousands of years to groom, that millennia of corruption could have effected, and that God-Emperor forbid, might have become less valid over time. The Space Wolves in M31 might have been the Emperor's executioners, but in M41/M42, ten thousand years removed and under the stewardship of Logan Grimnar, they might be "folk-heroes," and both of those perspectives might be true and valid, based on when the observations were made. History is written not by the victors, but the historians. The victors usually dictate the first draft, possibly even bribing the historians. But, in the long run, it's the historians who control what you read generations later. And a galaxy-spanning Imperium means a lot of historians, each with their different perspectives.

 

2) As to whether or not the Wolves were as "scary and brutal" as the World Eaters or Night Lords or <insert your scary/brutal legion here>: The World Eaters were about totality of offensive force--destroy the enemy, period. Crush them, at all costs. Angron's idea of strategy, if one were to be unkind, was which axe to use first in combat once the drop pod landed. The Night Lords were wholly about terror, the weight of terror upon a population to enforce a stated goal, and commando style tactics. And when it came to total annihilation no matter the cost and sheer abject terror, they were both the zenith of their art, no question.

 

What that guardsman says is that the Wolves were the worst (and that being in his experience, which he himself admits the limitations of). Not that they were better at terror tactics than the Night Lords, nor that they were more bloodthirsty and battle-crazed than the World Eaters. Prospero actually took pains to underscore the difference, in the suggestion that the Wolves pursued some sort of middle ground. I think Roboute calls it Skira Vordrotta (System kill) in Know No Fear (though I might be citing the wrong novel). The Wolves toss the rule book out the window, pick the most effective way to tear the foe apart, and do so. Under Russ, they did so with all their cards face up, as he did with Magnus--no sneak attacks, just brutal but surgical force. Terror and mass carnage were not the aim; systemic destruction of the adversary was. The Wolves didn't outdo either brother legion; they were their own thing, a wholly separate expression of warfare, just like the World Eaters and the Night Lords.

 

They became the Emperor's executioners, perhaps for that very reason--that they could throw the book out the window and still be wholly loyal. The World Eaters lost themselves to rage and Angron was at best a disgruntled son after Del'shea. The Night Lords were marginally trustworthy at best, and Kurze was marginally sane at best. But they did excel in their chosen specialties. It's just the Wolves mixed those roles with some other qualities and had their own vector.

 

This isn't a "whose chainsword is bigger" argument. This is apples, oranges, and lemons. All of them different, all of them similar.

 

I prefer the way the BL HH series is going. Is it true to the old school fluff? No. But then, if we stuck with fluff 1.0, our little space marines would all be prison convicts or somesuch.

[Legatus]

You correctly reiterate that the Space Wolves are described as "worse" than the Night Lords or the World Eaters, and then attempt to explain how that is not the case.

[Gree]

Actually Fear to Tread clears up the Wolves issue.

Going from spoilers each loyal Primarch after Nikaea now has a unit of Space Wolves watching them for signs of treachery. Sanguinius has a unit of Wolves led by a Wolf Guard named Redknife to watch him if he turns traitor. So yes, the Wolves are th Executioners

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Actually Fear to Tread clears up the Wolves issue.

Going from spoilers each loyal Primarch after Nikaea now has a unit of Space Wolves watching them for signs of treachery. Sanguinius has a unit of Wolves led by a Wolf Guard named Redknife to watch him if he turns traitor. So yes, the Wolves are th Executioners

 

Great. just great. :)

 

WLK

[Wade Garrett]

Never mind how much more sense it would make for the Adeptus Custodes or even the Imperial Fists (Dorn being the Praetorian and whatnot) to fill that role. This is bad. This is "Alpha Legionaires who can pretend to be Raven Guard so well even Corax is fooled" bad.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Never mind how much more sense it would make for the Adeptus Custodes or even the Imperial Fists (Dorn being the Praetorian and whatnot) to fill that role. This is bad. This is "Alpha Legionaires who can pretend to be Raven Guard so well even Corax is fooled" bad.

 

I agree. If anybody other than the Custodes watchdogged a Legion, I would call BS.

 

the AL thing still pisses me off.

 

WLK

[Lord_Caerolion]

Oh come on! That's supposed to be the job of the Custodes, as shown by First Heretic! So, what, the psychic Primarchs had Wolf minders attached to them after Nikaea, but Magnus, the one they really had to be watching, didn't? What do they even expect a single squad of Astartes to do against a Primarch anyway?

 

 

I was originally hopeful about that book. Sadly, that hope is now greatly diminished...

[WolfGuardVortek]

I think i know how Legatus feels now... I happen to like the Wolves.... But.. Really?

[Legatus]

I know it sounds reeally bad, but perhaps the respective passage from Fear to Thread was just misinterpeted? There have been small units of various Legions attached to various other Legions on other occasions, perhaps something similar had happened in that novel.

 

But if that is actually the case, if the Space Wolves are tasked with watching over the other Legions, then that is just ridiculous. Like the Emperor would instruct the Space Wolves to watch over the Imperial Fists or the Sons of Horus. Like the Space Wolves with their "Rune Priests" are the model Legion to enforce the Edict of Nikaea.

[Gree]

I know it sounds reeally bad, but perhaps the respective passage from Fear to Thread was just misinterpeted? There have been small units of various Legions attached to various other Legions on other occasions, perhaps something similar had happened in that novel.

 

But if that is actually the case, if the Space Wolves are tasked with watching over the other Legions, then that is just ridiculous. Like the Emperor would instruct the Space Wolves to watch over the Imperial Fists or the Sons of Horus. Like the Space Wolves with their "Rune Priests" are the model Legion to enforce the Edict of Nikaea.

 

I'm told Page 147 of the novel clearly states that the Wolves are there to watch over Sanguinius at Malcador's orders because of Magnus's treachery and they want to watch any Primarch who might turn traitor.

 

Of course, these are the spoilers I'm just hearing, but multiple people on Warseer have confirmed it and the page numbers.

[Lord_Caerolion]

So, they're there to "watch any Primarch who might turn traitor", but they conveniently forget to send some with Magnus? That makes no sense whatsoever, also in that that's supposed to be the job of the Custodes. Astartes are soldiers, not bodyguards/minders.

 

I'm starting to think I might be putting this book on the "read then forget" pile, just like BftA and the Outcast Dead. I mean, it will probably still have some kick-ass stuff about the Blood Angels, which will hopefully be awesome, but I don't want yet another book about how the Wolves are the bestest Legion ever and nobody else could ever possibly hope to beat them in battle, because they're TEH EXECUTIONERZ!!1!

[Pulse]

Some on the rumours/truths that i am hearing and reading about new HH information is just getting redicious. Its like GW/BL are trying to fill in the gaps with drivel.

[Jimmy Carmine]

So, they're there to "watch any Primarch who might turn traitor", but they conveniently forget to send some with Magnus? That makes no sense whatsoever, also in that that's supposed to be the job of the Custodes. Astartes are soldiers, not bodyguards/minders.

 

It suggests that these small units of Wolves had been dispatched to watch the Primarchs as a direct result of Magnus' treachery while the rest of them head for Prospero.

 

While I would expect the Custodians to normally be assigned to this task based off of TFH, what with the broken webway portal and the upcoming Prospero assault could it just be that there are too few Custodians to spare for these assignment?

[Billuriye]

It suggests that these small units of Wolves had been dispatched to watch the Primarchs as a direct result of Magnus' treachery while the rest of them head for Prospero.

 

While I would expect the Custodians to normally be assigned to this task based off of TFH, what with the broken webway portal and the upcoming Prospero assault could it just be that there are too few Custodians to spare for these assignment?

 

They could have come up something like Deathwatch, peerless elite group of Astartes with unflinching loyalty by different legions watching out for signs for treason. Allocating only SW to this task is a terrible PR move.

[Lord_Caerolion]

So, they're there to "watch any Primarch who might turn traitor", but they conveniently forget to send some with Magnus? That makes no sense whatsoever, also in that that's supposed to be the job of the Custodes. Astartes are soldiers, not bodyguards/minders.

 

It suggests that these small units of Wolves had been dispatched to watch the Primarchs as a direct result of Magnus' treachery while the rest of them head for Prospero.

 

While I would expect the Custodians to normally be assigned to this task based off of TFH, what with the broken webway portal and the upcoming Prospero assault could it just be that there are too few Custodians to spare for these assignment?

 

The fact still remains, what are 10 (I'm assuming) Astartes going to be able to do if a Primarch does go rogue? Primarchs have consistently been shown as being able to cut through Astartes with no problem whatsoever, so unless they're increasing the hype of the Wolves even more to them being Primarch-killers, then 10 Wolves aren't going to do much more than stain the armour of the Primarch they're watching.

[Billuriye]

They don't need to kill Primarchs, just alert the Imperium about the treason.

[Lord_Caerolion]

And how are they supposed to do that? Just tell the Primarch to please cease summoning those daemons, they just need to go talk to the Astropath and send off a quick message? If the Primarchs were going to go rogue, the first thing they'd try to do would be to remove the Wolves, who are completely outgunned in every single way. Having Wolves watch the Primarchs just means a loyal Astartes will be able to stumble across any heretical activity, shortly before either being gutted by a Primarch, or swarmed by the Legion they've been attached to.

 

To put it another way, this isn't real life. The Wolves can't send off a short SOS message from their pocket-Astropath. Interstellar communications is an incredibly lengthy procedure, a length of time the Wolves wouldn't be able to survive for. The Custodes at least had the benefit of being able to outmatch the Astartes completely, while having enough of them to pose a threat to Lorgar. The Wolves simply don't have that advantage.

[Jimmy Carmine]

They have a Rune Priest with them, could he send the warning? The remaining Wolves would only have to hold the line somewhere defensible in the bowels of the ship until he did that.

[Legatus]

They have a Rune Priest with them, could he send the warning?

That sort of defeats the purpose of enforcing the Edict of Nikaea, doesn't it? -_-