Primarch Role(S)?

[Gree]

So, they're there to "watch any Primarch who might turn traitor", but they conveniently forget to send some with Magnus? That makes no sense whatsoever, also in that that's supposed to be the job of the Custodes. Astartes are soldiers, not bodyguards/minders.

 

It suggests that these small units of Wolves had been dispatched to watch the Primarchs as a direct result of Magnus' treachery while the rest of them head for Prospero.

 

While I would expect the Custodians to normally be assigned to this task based off of TFH, what with the broken webway portal and the upcoming Prospero assault could it just be that there are too few Custodians to spare for these assignment?

 

The fact still remains, what are 10 (I'm assuming) Astartes going to be able to do if a Primarch does go rogue? Primarchs have consistently been shown as being able to cut through Astartes with no problem whatsoever, so unless they're increasing the hype of the Wolves even more to them being Primarch-killers, then 10 Wolves aren't going to do much more than stain the armour of the Primarch they're watching.

 

As far as I can tell the Wolves are just that awesome.

[Gree]

Actually to elaborate: The Wolves are supposedly there to support them in the Signus Campaign, and they appearantly had a good excuse of some sort. And they have very clear access to Sanguinius as they carry the Sigilite's authority while on board, they can get a personal meeting with him alone if needed. Azkaellon of course doesn't like it but you can't argue with the Sigilite, because to have his authority is to pretty much have the Emperor's authority.

 

And by that they'd prove themselves renegades, but the Wolves are there to watch for psyker treachery. They have no idea of what is happening with Horus, its their duty to uphold Nikea and prevent another Primarch going down Magnus's path.

[Wade Garrett]

This notion of units of Wolves being attached to the various Primarchs to enforce Nikea seems to completely contradict every. Single. Horus Heresy novel before it. Unless Guilliman, Fulgrim, Lorgar, Horus, and the Lion were never considered a risk to violating the Emperor's edict. Which the Lion did as soon as his troops starting running into daemons. Well done, men of Fenris!

 

As for a Rune Priest being able to contact the Emperor...Magnus the Red, one of the most powerful psykers in existence, needed days of preparation, tons of chanting acolytes, and some human sacrifice to fling a message through the Empyrean to Terra about Horus going off the reservation. I am a bit skeptical of Totally Not a Psyker Grimbeard Grimbeardson's ability to do the same with an angry Primarch and a traitor Legion bearing down on him

[Marshal Rohr]

Remember the Space Wolves have special psychic abilities that don't come from the warp, but from Fenris, making them much cooler and totally not under the Nikea Edict.

[Inquisitor Engel]

Remember the Space Wolves have special psychic abilities that don't come from the warp, but from Fenris, making them much cooler and totally not under the Nikea Edict.

 

Reading into the Puppy Propaganda are we? -_-

 

"A Thousand Sons" makes it abundantly clear the Wolf Priests get their powers from the same place everyone else does, they just choose to ignore (perhaps willfully) that their psychic powers come from the Warp, just like everyone else's.

[Baluc]

Remember the Space Wolves have special psychic abilities that don't come from the warp, but from Fenris, making them much cooler and totally not under the Nikea Edict.

 

Reading into the Puppy Propaganda are we? ;)

 

"A Thousand Sons" makes it abundantly clear the Wolf Priests get their powers from the same place everyone else does, they just choose to ignore (perhaps willfully) that their psychic powers come from the Warp, just like everyone else's.

 

I don't think Ahriman is exactly an unbiased source. Not withstanding, in terms of why wolves? The Custodes are busy, and the Wolves have proven themselves that perfect combination of both willing and capable to do whatever it takes in the name of the Emperor. They just seem the ideological choice, high levels of veal, high levels of dicipline. Nothing to me says Wolves more then the deciding moment in the fight between Bear and Amon. That should be all it takes to explain why packs of wolves are following the legions around.

[endless]

Remember the Space Wolves have special psychic abilities that don't come from the warp, but from Fenris, making them much cooler and totally not under the Nikea Edict.

 

Reading into the Puppy Propaganda are we? ;)

 

"A Thousand Sons" makes it abundantly clear the Wolf Priests get their powers from the same place everyone else does, they just choose to ignore (perhaps willfully) that their psychic powers come from the Warp, just like everyone else's.

 

I don't think Ahriman is exactly an unbiased source. Not withstanding, in terms of why wolves? The Custodes are busy, and the Wolves have proven themselves that perfect combination of both willing and capable to do whatever it takes in the name of the Emperor. They just seem the ideological choice, high levels of veal, high levels of dicipline. Nothing to me says Wolves more then the deciding moment in the fight between Bear and Amon. That should be all it takes to explain why packs of wolves are following the legions around.

 

I know it's a typo but the idea of the Wolves having more veal tickles me no end... :)

 

That said, given Warhammer's general tropes, could it be that the Wolve's use of the warp is substantially different? I'm thinking along the lines of runes/runic magic/dwarfs etc. Maybe this could account for some of the discrepency post Nikea, just a thought given the various problems, the use of the Aegis, and so on.

[Gree]

Remember the Space Wolves have special psychic abilities that don't come from the warp, but from Fenris, making them much cooler and totally not under the Nikea Edict.

 

Reading into the Puppy Propaganda are we? :(

 

"A Thousand Sons" makes it abundantly clear the Wolf Priests get their powers from the same place everyone else does, they just choose to ignore (perhaps willfully) that their psychic powers come from the Warp, just like everyone else's.

 

I don't think Ahriman is exactly an unbiased source. Not withstanding, in terms of why wolves? The Custodes are busy, and the Wolves have proven themselves that perfect combination of both willing and capable to do whatever it takes in the name of the Emperor. They just seem the ideological choice, high levels of veal, high levels of dicipline. Nothing to me says Wolves more then the deciding moment in the fight between Bear and Amon. That should be all it takes to explain why packs of wolves are following the legions around.

 

Ah yes, the Wolves are truely the only Astartes Legion elite enough to be the Internal Affairs amoung other Legions. They have the greatest loyalty, ruthlessness and discipline. Truely all Legions suck in comparison to the awesome sons of Russ, who are so trustworthy and badass that they have the role of policing their less worthy brothers.

[A D-B]

Remember the Space Wolves have special psychic abilities that don't come from the warp, but from Fenris, making them much cooler and totally not under the Nikea Edict.

 

Reading into the Puppy Propaganda are we? :D

 

"A Thousand Sons" makes it abundantly clear the Wolf Priests get their powers from the same place everyone else does, they just choose to ignore (perhaps willfully) that their psychic powers come from the Warp, just like everyone else's.

 

I don't think Ahriman is exactly an unbiased source. Not withstanding, in terms of why wolves? The Custodes are busy, and the Wolves have proven themselves that perfect combination of both willing and capable to do whatever it takes in the name of the Emperor. They just seem the ideological choice, high levels of veal, high levels of dicipline. Nothing to me says Wolves more then the deciding moment in the fight between Bear and Amon. That should be all it takes to explain why packs of wolves are following the legions around.

 

Ah yes, the Wolves are truely the only Astartes Legion elite enough to be the Internal Affairs amoung other Legions. They have the greatest loyalty, ruthlessness and discipline. Truely all Legions suck in comparison to the awesome sons of Russ, who are so trustworthy and badass that they have the role of policing their less worthy brothers.

 

This exchange caused me physical pain.

[Marshal Rohr]

It was funnier before the edit.

[Bulwyf]

Sooo....small contingent of Space Wolves, would you mind hopping on down to Istvaan for me, your dear old Warmaster? I have this large assault you see against the government there and we really do need you guys there. What? I'm not going you say? Why all the more glory for you dear Captain! So just hop on down there and get your awesome Son of Russness on big fellow.

[Gree]

It was funnier before the edit.

 

I'm assuming I missed something awesome.

[Gree]

Interestingly enough I got an answer from James Swallow himself:

 

"It was never the intention that the Wolves were being sent out as assassins; they were never "expected to be able to kill the Primarchs". It seems that there are some mistaken assumptions being made here, so let me explain.

 

After Magnus breaks the Nikaea edict, Malcador orders Russ to send a small contingent of Wolves out to each of the other primarchs. Their primary mission is to observe those primarchs and report back on any behaviour that might show sympathy to Magnus or anything that smacks of similar rebellion. Note that this is Malcador who gives the order, not the Emperor. At this point, the Emperor still trusts his sons; but the Sigillite doesn't trust anyone.

 

The Wolf "observers" (and Russ) know full well that this is potentially a suicide mission, because if any of the primarchs have turned, they could be killed on arrival or not long after - but if that happens, Russ and Malcador will know something is rotten when they don't report back at the appointed time. The Wolves know that if they find a primarch who has gone bad, their mission is to A) send a warning and B try to kill him.

 

None of the Wolves have any illusions about the fact that they will all die if they draw their weapons against a primarch; the SW captain Helik Redknife says exactly that in FTT. Even as "the Emperor's Executioners", the best they could possibly do would be to wound a primarch, perhaps slow him down. They know this going in, but they accept this duty because they are the Wolves of Russ and they do as he commands them.

 

So why send the Wolves instead of the Custodians?

 

First, it's a simple question of logistics. There are simply more Wolves than there are Custodians, and the Wolves are scattered out in the galaxy already at large, closer to the primarchs on the Great Crusade, whereas the Custodians are largely centred on Terra. It's just quicker and easier to re-task Space Wolf elements to hook up with the primarchs than to send out Custodians "the long way round".

And of course, not all of those Space Wolf squads will actually be able to fulfil their mission. Some won't be able to find the primarchs they are sent to observe, others will be killed as the heresy kicks off. Malcador will find out the hard way that his plan is too little, too late.

 

Secondly, if the intent was just to send out teams capable of killing a primarch, you'd need at least two Custodians to do the deed, probably three to be certain. That means sending more than fifty Custodians out into the galaxy, away from the actual job they are trained for and assigned to do, which is to protect the Emperor. Don't forget, the Custodians are a defensive army, not typically assigned to pro-active missions. Considering that some Custodians will already be leaving Terra to join the Wolves at the punishment of Prospero, do you really think that the Custodian Guard would accept an order from Malcador to leave their master with an even more reduced protection detail, especially at a time when one of his sons has just turned renegade and psionically invaded the Imperial Palace? Doesn't seem likely to me; not to mention the fact that the Custodians take their commands from the Emperor, not Malcador. The Sigillite doesn't actually have the right to give them that order.

 

The Wolves get the mission because they are the best tool for the job, in the right place at the right time, because they do the deeds that no others will accept, without question; and because, pragmatically speaking, Malcador sees them as disposable."

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

while i do like that response, and can see where Swallow is coming from in his logic/reasoning, I can already see where people are going to act all "butt-hurt" over the response regardless of intentions.

 

actually, the only thing i question is that 3 custodians could kill a primarch...wow. custodians are either more awesome than i thought (which was already pretty high) or primarchs suck more than i thought.

 

WLK

[Wade Garrett]

. At this point, the Emperor still trusts his sons; but the Sigillite doesn't trust anyone.

 

Except for Leman Russ and the Wolves. It really makes no sense for a Legion that is already using the Nikea Edict as toilet paper (just like Magnus and the Sons) and has unstable gene seed that may turn them into monsters (again, just like Magnus and the Thousand Sons) to be given this job, instead of one of the Legions that had already put their Librarians on the back of the bus and spoke against Magnus at Nikea, like the Death Guard or the Emperor's Children. Or Dorn's boys, who were trusted enough to protect Terra itself.

 

Of course, a properly paranoid sensechal would have selected his watchers from among a variety of Legions, so that even if Magnus had already compromised, say, the Raven Guard, the Iron Hands would still blow the whistle. "Who watches the watchmen?" and all that.

[Gree]

. At this point, the Emperor still trusts his sons; but the Sigillite doesn't trust anyone.

 

Except for Leman Russ and the Wolves. It really makes no sense for a Legion that is already using the Nikea Edict as toilet paper (just like Magnus and the Sons) and has unstable gene seed that may turn them into monsters (again, just like Magnus and the Thousand Sons) to be given this job, instead of one of the Legions that had already put their Librarians on the back of the bus and spoke against Magnus at Nikea, like the Death Guard or the Emperor's Children. Or Dorn's boys, who were trusted enough to protect Terra itself.

 

Of course, a properly paranoid sensechal would have selected his watchers from among a variety of Legions, so that even if Magnus had already compromised, say, the Raven Guard, the Iron Hands would still blow the whistle. "Who watches the watchmen?" and all that.

 

Swallow already mentions that Malcador considers the Wolves to be ''disposable''

[Billuriye]

I think Swallow's reasoning is swallowable.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I get it.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Also bear in mind that Sanguinius was the second greatest pyschic talent of the Primarchs. If anyone would follow Magnus, assuming they where tempted, it would be Sanguinius that posedthe greatest threat in that regard.

[Legatus]

Well, that it was Malcador who sent the Wolves units instead of the Emperor makes it a little bit better. And I can understand why he did not send the Imperial Fists (who are inarguably the Legion who would more "officially" represent the will of the Emperor). Sending a unit of Marines to make sure the Primarchs comply with the Edict is somewhat insulting, and the Imperial Fists would have taken issue with that more than most other Chapters (Dorn felt similarly insulted when he was no longer allowed to command an entire Legion). And I can understand why he would not send Marines of the Sons of Horus (who are arguably more favoured in the eye of the Emperor than the Space Wolves), since they would most likely have resented such a task. The Sons of Horus were known to leave other forces of other Legions behind to clean up liberated worlds behind them, claiming that all their own units were needed at the front. It is not a pleasant asignment, and the Space Wolves were perhaps indeed better suited for that kind of work than the Imperial Fists or the Sons of Horus.

 

Still, the entire notion of one single Legion being tasked with keeping watch over the others is iffy. Not a good move by Swallow. Or perhaps it was an IP/Merrett decision again.

[Marshal Rohr]

His response changes the game. Once again this whole discussion could've used alot of context. Sometimes I feel like I'm in a book club where most members either can't buy the book, don't read it, or skim it. So then when our club meeting comes the pea who read it talk about how awesome something is and it throws the whole story out of whack.

[Gree]

Still, the entire notion of one single Legion being tasked with keeping watch over the others is iffy. Not a good move by Swallow. Or perhaps it was an IP/Merrett decision again.

 

Swallow said Abnett suggested it at a meeting and Swallow agreed to it as a good idea.

[Legatus]

Like Abnett knows how to best use the Wolves. -_-

[Gree]

Like Abnett knows how to best use the Wolves. -_-

 

Regarldess of personal feelings Abnett is highly respected and regarded over at GW. His word has weight.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

His response changes the game. Once again this whole discussion could've used alot of context. Sometimes I feel like I'm in a book club where most members either can't buy the book, don't read it, or skim it. So then when our club meeting comes the pea who read it talk about how awesome something is and it throws the whole story out of whack.

 

QFT

 

WLK