Sergeant Tanks and Pie Plates

[darth_giles]

Has anyone been paying attention to the discussion of wound allocation in 6th edition, and some of the shenanigans people are discussing? Such as giving a sergeant a Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer, and having him walk in front of his squad to absorb fire?

 

Was I the only one who thought to take a Chaos Vindicator or Defiler and pie plate the guy?

[A D-B]

Has anyone been paying attention to the discussion of wound allocation in 6th edition, and some of the shenanigans people are discussing? Such as giving a sergeant a Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer, and having him walk in front of his squad to absorb fire?

 

Was I the only one who thought to take a Chaos Vindicator or Defiler and pie plate the guy?

 

I love the image of the sergeant, because it's raw Heroic Marine-style 40K, covering his men and soaking up the enemy fire, with access to the shiny relics from the Chapter Armoury, all because he carries a Crux Terminatus. Fluffy. Cool. Awesome.

 

And I love the solution, because it's pure Grimdark Marine-style 40K, where heroism ultimately ends in failure, and even great deeds earn you nothing but ignoble death. Dark. Tragic. Kinda funny.

 

Must use my Vindicator.

 

Yes.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Where troops are positioned being important to who dies first also makes how you maneuver your own troops before shooting important these days. Same thing with the overwatch USR. You want to make sure you get behind that Leman Russ before you charge. You want to make sure to position your shooters to bypass Invuln saves or to get at dangerous weapons.

 

I think it adds an element of tactics that was missing from 5th edition and that I enjoy.

[Zeratil]

I think that's more a 'tactic' than a shenanigan, it's something a sergeant might try to do to protect his squad. Storm shields are expensive and given that the shooter dictates the order of the wounds, against a power armour sarge you could force him to take the bolter wounds first until he fails a save, then the AP1/2/3 special weapon wounds on his now defenceless men.

[Llagos_Tyrant]

Has anyone been paying attention to the discussion of wound allocation in 6th edition, and some of the shenanigans people are discussing? Such as giving a sergeant a Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer, and having him walk in front of his squad to absorb fire?

 

Was I the only one who thought to take a Chaos Vindicator or Defiler and pie plate the guy?

 

I love the image of the sergeant, because it's raw Heroic Marine-style 40K, covering his men and soaking up the enemy fire, with access to the shiny relics from the Chapter Armoury, all because he carries a Crux Terminatus. Fluffy. Cool. Awesome.

 

And I love the solution, because it's pure Grimdark Marine-style 40K, where heroism ultimately ends in failure, and even great deeds earn you nothing but ignoble death. Dark. Tragic. Kinda funny.

 

Must use my Vindicator.

 

Yes.

 

 

I will keep an eye out for this in one of your books ... just in case ...

[darth_giles]

*sigh*

 

Maybe I was a little hasty, it looks like the whole "wounds are allocated as normal" thing is still in effect. Which is damn annoying given how blasts work- in previous editions, you could only remove models that were actually hit by the blast marker or template. Course, its possible that this situation didn't come up during playtesting, considering how little mention I've seen of dealing with a Sergeant Tank scenario this way.

 

Either way, I don't see what could stop a tank commander from telling the gunner to "Aim just a little behind the guy with the big shield."

[Zeratil]

Yeah, although barrage weapons do have the 'take casualties from the pie plate hole rule. So if you can grab those you can ask your gunner to 'aim for the dude with the melta gun behind the Storm Shield guy'

[the jeske]

*sigh*

 

Maybe I was a little hasty, it looks like the whole "wounds are allocated as normal" thing is still in effect. Which is damn annoying given how blasts work- in previous editions, you could only remove models that were actually hit by the blast marker or template. Course, its possible that this situation didn't come up during playtesting, considering how little mention I've seen of dealing with a Sergeant Tank scenario this way.

 

Either way, I don't see what could stop a tank commander from telling the gunner to "Aim just a little behind the guy with the big shield."

 

imagine this . draigo up front and palas +libby in a wedge formation. look out sir everywhere . you put some wounds in to the paladins maybe 1 in to draigo. I return he moves the "wounded dudes" to the back [to keny them for look out sir] replaces the front with new fresh unwounded dudes and showers you back with sniping mastercrafted psycannons . thats wound allocation.

 

Or a SW slogger list . 10 man GH squads 2 plasma [30"range with the new change] each with a Terminator wolfguard leader . If he is crazy enough he can also added storm shields , if he wants to soak up plasma/lascannons. 2 divi rune priests [and they can take more because ally and 2 HQ per 1 slot for them in normal games] TWC in support or LF[again with terminator armored leaders soaking up that non ap 1-2 fire] and you dont need tanks [well maybe some drop pods] .

[Azekai]

imagine this . draigo up front and palas +libby in a wedge formation. look out sir everywhere . you put some wounds in to the paladins maybe 1 in to draigo. I return he moves the "wounded dudes" to the back [to keny them for look out sir] replaces the front with new fresh unwounded dudes and showers you back with sniping mastercrafted psycannons . thats wound allocation.

 

Or a SW slogger list . 10 man GH squads 2 plasma [30"range with the new change] each with a Terminator wolfguard leader . If he is crazy enough he can also added storm shields , if he wants to soak up plasma/lascannons. 2 divi rune priests [and they can take more because ally and 2 HQ per 1 slot for them in normal games] TWC in support or LF[again with terminator armored leaders soaking up that non ap 1-2 fire] and you dont need tanks [well maybe some drop pods] .

 

I think the best way to deal with these silly uber units is to simply assault them. Tie them up in assault, preferably with a nice, fast, flying DP, and then issue challenges till the cows come home- fight the libby, the squad sarge, Draigo, whoever, whatever, one at a time. Even if the DP loses, it will still have the enemy tied up for quite a few rounds of combat; more than worth it, I'd say.

 

As for the GH packs, nothing the aforementioned pie plates won't sort out- let them foot-slog, my battle cannons are ready.

[the jeske]

how many DPs do you want to charge in to a paladin unit ? specialy as half the time your going to be also hit by nades . I have seen whole chaos armies bounce of 10 palads with draigo and an inq .

 

my battle cannons are ready.

the list has 1 cyclon , 6 normal RL and 4 lascannons and our defilers are still av 12 . you better get turn 1 .

[darth_giles]

imagine this . draigo up front and palas +libby in a wedge formation. look out sir everywhere . you put some wounds in to the paladins maybe 1 in to draigo. I return he moves the "wounded dudes" to the back [to keny them for look out sir] replaces the front with new fresh unwounded dudes and showers you back with sniping mastercrafted psycannons . thats wound allocation.

 

Or a SW slogger list . 10 man GH squads 2 plasma [30"range with the new change] each with a Terminator wolfguard leader . If he is crazy enough he can also added storm shields , if he wants to soak up plasma/lascannons. 2 divi rune priests [and they can take more because ally and 2 HQ per 1 slot for them in normal games] TWC in support or LF[again with terminator armored leaders soaking up that non ap 1-2 fire] and you dont need tanks [well maybe some drop pods] .

Jeske, you're making a very good case for a return to the 3.0 era of "we don't allow special characters." Now please take the GK codex back to the GK board where it belongs. A lot of us are getting damn tired of hearing you pipe in about Dragio-wing every five seconds.

[Azekai]

Jeske, you're making a very good case for a return to the 3.0 era of "we don't allow special characters." Now please take the GK codex back to the GK board where it belongs. A lot of us are getting damn tired of hearing you pipe in about Dragio-wing every five seconds.

Dude, no need for the hostility- Jeske is raising some valid points here. Draigo-wing is an all too common list, and it gives folks problems.

 

As for the DPs, I was planning on using many, but only using one on the death star unit at a time, issuing challenges round by round. Even Draigo is only going to put a few wounds on one each round; well worth holding up that uber unit.

 

And as far as battle cannons go, I wasn't talking about defilers. I was talking about Leman Russ battle tanks.

[Vesper]

imagine this . draigo up front and palas +libby in a wedge formation. look out sir everywhere . you put some wounds in to the paladins maybe 1 in to draigo. I return he moves the "wounded dudes" to the back [to keny them for look out sir] replaces the front with new fresh unwounded dudes and showers you back with sniping mastercrafted psycannons . thats wound allocation.

 

Or a SW slogger list . 10 man GH squads 2 plasma [30"range with the new change] each with a Terminator wolfguard leader . If he is crazy enough he can also added storm shields , if he wants to soak up plasma/lascannons. 2 divi rune priests [and they can take more because ally and 2 HQ per 1 slot for them in normal games] TWC in support or LF[again with terminator armored leaders soaking up that non ap 1-2 fire] and you dont need tanks [well maybe some drop pods] .

Jeske, you're making a very good case for a return to the 3.0 era of "we don't allow special characters." Now please take the GK codex back to the GK board where it belongs. A lot of us are getting damn tired of hearing you pipe in about Dragio-wing every five seconds.

 

Give him a break. He's right and ATM, around 20% of what you can face are draigowing trainingwheels lists.

And yeah, V3 was pretty nice as far as I remember.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Jeske's point is well taken. Wound allocation being what it is, and with Look Out Sir in play, getting rid of that pesky 3++ or special character is going to be a real chore.

[darth_giles]

Ok, think I found some answers from the BA board. I don't like the second that much because it still smells of shenanigans, but it looks like its just as effective.

 

Option 1: Take IG allies for a Basilik. Upgrade it to take Indirect fire, and revel in the fact that barriage wound allocation is based on the final position of the center hole and not on the closest figure to the shooter.

 

Option 2: Keep a row of infantry in front of your Vindicator, and arrange it so the hull-mounted Demolisher cannon can't put Sergeant Tank in its 45-degree LOS. Thou cans't not allocate wounds to those who are not in LOS.

 

I still don't have a good answer to the Dragio conga line, but I'm sure I'll think of one sooner or later.

[RapatoR]

I think jeske might have good point in 5th but not in 6th. Flyers, flying MCs, focused witchfire, randomly allocated wounds, challenges, precision shots, more mobile transports and tanks, thanks to flat out, heck even things from fifth like infiltrating/outflanking units, bikes, jump pack units, speeders, DE in general and simple movement and many more other things will regard this useless. All it takes is just to think and use some tactics. You are acting like there is no movement phase.

Some of them can be prevented by LOS, but you are going to fail half of them and 1/6th of them with ICs. And remember that in units with mixed saves LOS happen before rolls for saves, so I don't really see what is so scary about unit with wolf guard termies. He has to LOS before rolling for saves (so his units will get shot), he is going to fail half of them anyway and all it takes to get one wound on leader and suddenly very expensive squad leader is down due to one lucky plasma/meltagun shot. If opponent will carry SShield I will force him to make bolter saves first. Chance of dying 1 of 6 times from bolter shots is not good for model costing 70+pts.

 

Draigowing - never played against it but I think it will become more meh due to mentioned reasons, lower ability to put excessive number of high ap wounds on one model, better ability for opponent to outmanoeuvre it and snipe models from it and some new psychic powers that will ruin deathstars (enjoy your expensive deathstar getting efeebled or misfortuned with psyker out of line of sight, or getting blind or sniped by beam or fighting invisible unit.... You got an idea.

 

Also jeske is somewhat inconsistent, I have seen him telling that GW hates Draigowing because of lower model count and now he cries how GW made Draigowing in 6th more broken than ever.

[totgeboren]

If your opponent pulls annoying things like this off, you could just place a rhino in front of your vindicator. Position it so that it blocks the 'Sgt. Tank', and blast the other half of the squad you can see. Then you can drive the rhino (after you fired your vindi, using the flat out move of the shooting phase) so that you block your entire vindicator, and your opponent would need to get an 'explode!' result on the rhino to even be able to shoot your vindicator.

[Beachymike123]

i'd say in regards to pie plates and sergeants, the 'look out sir' rule will be most prominent. i think its a rule that will be more fleshed out over the course of 6th ed and actually make for some interesting plot lines. i love the rules now, they actually make a decent storyline as we now play and can be recalled with decent claity.

also, before it starts up, lets not start critiqueing jeske, this is not a 'stab brother in the back thread'. he might be inconsistent at times but he does raise some good points. those meta/deathstar lists from 5th are becoming obsolete but are still proving dominant until appropriate codexes are released. at least he's bearing in mind the transition, which is what we need to properly analyse the way 6th ed works compared to how we're used to. i'm not saying i totally agree with what he always says, but lets just keep it as an open discussion and the tactical uses of our unit leaders, as is the way that i interpret the OP of this thread.

[zyl-]

I actually played a GK army just last weekend, and the HQ squad was more or less the kind of retarded Jeske spoke of. I'm not terribly familiar with the codex, but I know there was an apothecary, paladins, and draigo. So after a rediculous amount of saves, there was a feel no pain (which is better this edition), and a look out sir. The funny truth was that I just kept a squad of plague marines on them, and would back up/rapid fire plasma. Meanwhile, my defiler and landraider were playing artillery support from far out of range. It worked out well in my favor, and though it could be argued that the dice loved me, my experience is that attrition beats uber units. I can't rightly say how many times I lost a daemon prince to stupid kroot, rather than a somewhat impressive railgun.

 

Also, in my opinion, this kind of allocation (stormshield sargeant) is making infantry more durable, but how many of our weaopns can't actually just outright kill a normal space marine almost every time? All of my squads have a powerfist, melta, las, or some other terrible way to just make the normal marine useless (no armor save, double toughness). With a system that's making vehicles more easily destroyed (and smoke launchers less effective), it would somewhat make sense to give infantry a boon. This is most especially true if the goal is to "sell more models" by making infantry the more popular choice.

[RapatoR]

also, before it starts up, lets not start critiqueing jeske, this is not a 'stab brother in the back thread'. he might be inconsistent at times but he does raise some good points.

I do not want stab jeske in back, I was merely rising (IMO) valid counterpoints and wondering about others. I meant no offence for anyone.

 

I actually played a GK army just last weekend, and the HQ squad was more or less the kind of retarded Jeske spoke of. I'm not terribly familiar with the codex, but I know there was an apothecary, paladins, and draigo. So after a rediculous amount of saves, there was a feel no pain (which is better this edition), and a look out sir.

Remember though that if you hit them will low ap weapons they have to LOS before rolling saves (as they have mixed saves).

[the jeske]

he is going to fail half of them anyway and all it takes to get one wound on leader and suddenly very expensive squad leader is down due to one lucky plasma/meltagun shot.

first of all if the dude is in termy armor then him failing a save is not that easy . you say I forget about the movment phase , but you forget that you have to hit and wound . bolters on t4 are still hit+3 wound +4 . plasmas do wound on +2 but there are fewer shots then bolters[but same chance to hit and if your double taping a GH unit at 12" then your a realy brave man [no charge] because GH hit harder then our dudes . even if the WG dies . killing him because you are lucky is not a good thing to base an army on . what do our squads have 8 bolter shots if they are csm , 5 if they are pms . hiting on +3 thats . 6 or 3 wounds half of those wound and then he can LOS! and as said before even if the WG dies he still has a hidden ax inside the units a motw dude .

 

 

 

Also jeske is somewhat inconsistent, I have seen him telling that GW hates Draigowing because of lower model count and now he cries how GW made Draigowing in 6th more broken than ever

yes they do hate armies that use fewer models [so are cheaper to play with] , but the they did give wound allocation tricks to all characters . I dont see where I am inconsistent here . They did nerf draigo in to forcing them to play with SR instead of NDKS though and making the list less easy to play then in the 5th.

 

ever played against it but I think it will become more meh due to mentioned reasons, lower ability to put excessive number of high ap wounds on one model, better ability for opponent to outmanoeuvre it and snipe models from it and some new psychic powers that will ruin deathstars (enjoy your expensive deathstar getting efeebled or misfortuned with psyker out of line of sight, or getting blind or sniped by beam or fighting invisible unit.... You got an idea.

casting stuff on GK was never an easy thing to do you know , even without reinforced aegis your still doing it at -1Ld and while it is true that bullter bending can get over a single HQ like draigo , it is not as easy when there are two . + as sniping goes , they have 4 mastercrafted psycannon dudes that snipe 5 if they have an inq in that unit too . that is 20 precision shots , they outsnipe us.

 

 

I still don't have a good answer to the Dragio conga line, but I'm sure I'll think of one sooner or late

they dont do congas in 6th they do trinagles .

[Brother Keyaetus]

I love the idea of a sergeant or squad leader being cocky enough to lead his squad through a hail of bullets/explosions, as it can go either way, like cheesy movies where he will make it and hammer people in the face, or just fall at the first shot directed his way only to be trampled on as his squad move over him, or the squad breaking their morale and legging it.

[darth_giles]

I still don't have a good answer to the Dragio conga line, but I'm sure I'll think of one sooner or late

they dont do congas in 6th they do trinagles .

That was a joke; it looks like it got lost in translation.

[RapatoR]

first of all if the dude is in termy armor then him failing a save is not that easy . you say I forget about the movment phase , but you forget that you have to hit and wound . bolters on t4 are still hit+3 wound +4 . plasmas do wound on +2 but there are fewer shots then bolters[but same chance to hit and if your double taping a GH unit at 12" then your a realy brave man [no charge] because GH hit harder then our dudes . even if the WG dies . killing him because you are lucky is not a good thing to base an army on . what do our squads have 8 bolter shots if they are csm , 5 if they are pms . hiting on +3 thats . 6 or 3 wounds half of those wound and then he can LOS! and as said before even if the WG dies he still has a hidden ax inside the units a motw dude .

Well the cannot board a rhino that means at least two rounds of shooting at them even more if you pack one heavy weapon to a squad a shoot from bigger distance. So it is approximately 30 bolter shots if he reaches you in two turns that is statistically 10 wounds 5 might get LOS! (But then whole point of tanking is lost.) and 5 hit him, that is big probability of getting killed, not luck. And all that stuff about flanking and other things applies nevertheless.

 

yes they do hate armies that use fewer models [so are cheaper to play with] , but the they did give wound allocation tricks to all characters . I dont see where I am inconsistent here . They did nerf draigo in to forcing them to play with SR instead of NDKS though and making the list less easy to play then in the 5th.

So GW willingly gave us options to build batter armies with low model count? And they always could make paladins non chars or make them non existent in a first place. They could easily see that draigowing will be popular. Also if they were nerfed why do you complain about them as being broken?

 

casting stuff on GK was never an easy thing to do you know , even without reinforced aegis your still doing it at -1Ld and while it is true that bullter bending can get over a single HQ like draigo , it is not as easy when there are two . + as sniping goes , they have 4 mastercrafted psycannon dudes that snipe 5 if they have an inq in that unit too . that is 20 precision shots , they outsnipe us.

Well there is stuff you can cast on yourself (Invisibility) that renders them useless and I with better blowability of noughts I doubt they will reliably get reinforced aegis. And with morale 10 -1LD is hardly an issue. They outsnipe us, but sniping hurts them far more than us.

[incinerator950]

Glad I kept a Defiler to assemble.

 

Edit: I actually came into this topic thinking that we have Vehicle Squadrons and we can designate field company commands and stuff. I'd love to do a Chaos Artillery Company. Bah, there I go again forgetting important stuff.