Tactical terminators

[Guardian of the Rage]

Hi all,

 

Just hoping that those whom have tried the tactical terminators out in the new addition could share a little of their experiences thus far.

 

Conventional wisdom seems to suggest that they have been advanced toward a premier choice in SM lists now and I am particularly interested in experience regarding the heavy weapon choice.

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

Cheers,

[Laughingdagger]

I say cyclone because you retain the storm bolter and can fire both, and, versatility, frag, krak, 48'

[Kingkaneda]

A friend of mine told me that relentless became worse in 6th edition and that you arent allowed to shoot 2 different gunt with a model anymore(like the cyclone AND the stormbolter). Is that true?

[Tinnock]

A friend of mine told me that relentless became worse in 6th edition and that you arent allowed to shoot 2 different gunt with a model anymore(like the cyclone AND the stormbolter). Is that true?

 

being able to fire both the cyclone and the stormbolter is part of the cyclone missile launcher rules not relentless, if terminators weren't relentless they would still be able to fire both, just not move and shoot both because the CML is heavy 6th shouldnt have changed that

[spartan249]

Ideal loadout of the terminators depend on your projected use of those terminators.

 

Cyclones provide stand-off firepower and the ability to take advantage of grouped up formations to lay down the hurt. These are ideal for Terminators who are going to begin deployed from the start and act as a multi-purpose unit focused on defense.

 

Assault Cannons are very aggressive weapons. Decent volume of shots coupled with the benefits of rending provide good damage output against both infantry and vehicles. The limited range of the weapon system dictates that the Terminators must be deployed into the proverbial danger zone to be effective, and thus lend themselves to a Terminator unit that is going to be used as a vanguard for the main force or a harassment unit sent behind enemy lines to disrupt firebases or target troops holding objectives.

 

Heavy Flamers are extremely focused on one thing: Killing medium infantry. Objectively, Heavy Flamers are the best weapon for taking on medium infantry hands down due to the fact that they ignore cover saves and can hit quite a few when they're hiding in cover. This weapon received a big boost in 6th edition due to how cover saves are granted because enemy troops will most likely be much more grouped up then before if they want to claim decent saves. However, the problem still stands that Heavy Flamers are horrendously bad at engaging anything with an armor value, so the Terminators will have to resort to close combat to deal with armored threats. This should probably only show up on Terminators who are tasked with targeting entrenched enemy infantry exclusively.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I think the Cyclone remains the king of Tac Termie options. It has twice the range of the assault cannon and six times the range of the heavy flamer. It has half the rate of fire of the asscan, sure, but it has a higher Strength so you don't need to rely on rolling 6s to hurt armor and Very Big Things. Plus, if you look at the RAW for Rending, the AP2 only applies to To Wound rolls, not armor penetration rolls, so neither weapon system gets a bonus on the vehicle damage chart. When it comes to infantry mobs, the CML wins hands down because two blast templates beats out four shots when it comes to wiping out hordes.

[ak-73]

AC only if you want to roll them out in droves. CML otherwise.

 

Alex

[Haranin]

Unless you have divination, in which case the AC might be slightly better since it will have more of an opportunity to roll 6s to wound.

 

Really depends on your force mix

[DarkGuard]

Divination isn't readily available to C:SM without allies, and other armies tend to have weaker psykers (C:DA) or more competing choices in Elites that may see Terminators limited.

 

However, I'd still prefer CMLs, for range and flexibility. Another thing to consider is that against T4 models it robs them of FnP, while assault cannons won't even do that with rending.

[Reinholt]

I prefer the assault cannon because I get to keep the powerfist, and I tend to use my terminators aggressively. I have a feeling this will be more so in the new edition, now that AP2 in close combat is so hard to circumvent.

 

With that said, I agree with the above sentiment: assault cannon if you field them in droves or plan to use the terminators aggressively. CML otherwise.

[DarkGuard]

You get to keep the power fist with the CML as well, it's an add on, not a replacement.

[Koremu]

Point to consider is that Template Weapons got somewhat disadvantaged by the casualty rules in 6th. The short range and positioning would usually lead you to put the Template Weapons to the fore, which will get them killed quickly. This isn't exclusive to Terminators, but does affect them.

 

That said, one of the big points about the Heavy Flamer is that it's cheap compared to the other two. The Heavy Flamer is what you take if you wouldn't otherwise take anything, or if you know you need to deal with Light-Medium Infantry.

[Reinholt]

By "keep" I meant derive utility from. Poor choice of words. What I was trying to convey is this:

 

CML encourages you to stay back, shoot and scoot with the terminators. You transform them into a shooting platform which I find, in the new rules, inferior to Sternguard.

 

AC encourages you to get close, which means you are going to be in assault, which means you are going to use the fist.

 

You have it in both cases; you just use it a lot more in one. I should have been more clear.

[DarkGuard]

Fair enough, although I'd disagree with that. Terminators operate best at 24" range, we know that, because that's where their storm bolters operate. Even with CMLs they'll often be moving forward to that range, where they'll be more flexible in their application to your overall battle plan, being in a better position to lend their power fists etc. CMLs just mean that you're in range a lot quicker and can contribute more in the opening stages of the game.

 

Of course, in my current Deathwing/C:SM hybrid list I'm using both CMLs and assault cannons.

[facmanpob]

Neither weapon is better or worse on an absolute scale, because both have advantages and disadvantages. If you are running multiple Terminator squads then mix and match, if a single terminator squad then the answer will be dependent upon the rest of your army and how the terminators fit into it. The Dark Angels sub-forum has a thread going called Deathwing metrics which lists some of the mathhammer stats associated with the various terminator loadouts. Whilst its by no means the only or best way of choosing your loadout, some of the stats may help you decide which you like better. :)

[D3STROY3R]

2+ now got a bit better. They might survive to actually use those powerfists. Shooting got a boost, but s4 is still s4. Are assault termies still better? Discuss!

[Guardian of the Rage]

Thanks for all of the comments guys, i think that all we are missing is some actual feedback from those using them right now. Can anyone oblige on this front?

 

Cheers,

[ak-73]

Rnadom thoughts:

 

Unfortunately they are still not "great" for hunting Tyranid MCs. They are also not great against horde armies. Rifleman Dreads probably remain the competitive choice in Elites but Tactical Terminators are definitely viable. Assault Terminators have the price of a Landraider attached to their name. So it's 10 Tacticals vs 5 Assaults+LR.

 

The advantage of the latter remains: Fairly reliable counter-assault, being able to smash/delay most enemy cc threats or driving up and causing fear and havoc among the enemy ranks. There's not too many alternatives for that in C:SM.

 

The Tactical Terminators lack a clearly defined role, they are generalists. That may be a strength because it makes their use less predictable. But you'll lack the benefits of fielding highly specialized troops that complement each other's strengths. But then again you'll have more powerfisted 2+ 5++ models on the field.

 

So my thoughts are: If you bring Tactical Terminators, bring at least 10 of them to throw them in the way of enemy melee threats when absolutely necessary. And keep them out of LOS from volume of fire attacks (3 trillion lasguns).

 

 

 

Alex

[Captain Idaho]

I haven't had any recent experience with them, but one thing I would say about Cyclone is what they are used for can make the squad inefficient in the extreme. It's ok having great flexibility and all, but with a 2 shot missile launcher you will always be tempted to fire it at vehicles, which means the Storm Bolters will not be firing. Having an Assault Cannon will mean the most efficient choice to fire at by a long way will be infantry, thus not tempting you into wasting shots.

 

I know you can choose not to fire at vehicles but sometimes you will see the Cyclones on the table and make a choice to arrange your fire plan around being able to, where as with the Assault Cannon in the squad you might change your position to have other units carry that weight.

[rubix41]

The Tactical Terminators lack a clearly defined role, they are generalists. That may be a strength because it makes their use less predictable. But you'll lack the benefits of fielding highly specialized troops that complement each other's strengths. But then again you'll have more powerfisted 2+ 5++ models on the field.

 

I have been experimenting with Terminators and, in a sledgehammer role, Assault Terminators are better - throw them at a T6 MC and TH/SS is usually death for them but I have been seeing my Tactical Terminators not as a sledgehammer but as a Tactical Squad more.

 

I can move and shoot, counter assault anything that the rest of my army can't handle and also, importantly, protect my troop choice. I was talking to my fellow SM player who is a big Dark Angel's player (so he knows how to handle his en-masse terminators) and I noticed that he waits for his opponent to come to him! Why? Because it's Storm Bolter's and an Assault Cannon or Missiles at 24" and at 12" AND on overwatch AND you can still assault them before they get you! Even better, get some terrain and wait for them and you got your AP2 protection on cover save because that 5++ isn't that great.

 

So it's not are Assault Terminators "better" - it's what you intend to do with them! If you are going head on against an opponent, go for the Assault Terminators (and a Chaplain) and (more than likely) get a Land Raider.

 

If you are expecting the enemy to come to you, I personally go for Tactical Terminators to protect your back end troops and vital area, missile any threat coming my way and once they get into storm bolter range, hose them. If they are better in combat, use the terrain to slow them down. If they haven't got AP2 weapons, I will be coming to them.

 

Bottom line: Tactical = more moving and shooting / Assault = more charging and smacking.

[Kingkaneda]

Thanks for all of the comments guys, i think that all we are missing is some actual feedback from those using them right now. Can anyone oblige on this front?

 

Cheers,

 

Ive used a 10 man tactical terminator squad with 2 CML's together with Lysander in 5th edition, and just recently tried them with 6th edition. My thoughts:

They got better! Mainly because of 2 reasons:

 

1. My lysander can now take ALL AP 1-2 hits if he wants(wich is partly why I put him in the squad).

 

2. 2+ armor save isnt afraid of all powerweopons anymore. My terminators where charged by a unit of 5 bloodcrushers in my 6th edition game, and the terminators totally smacked them death while taking only 1 casualty themselves.

 

 

Besides these upgrades since 6th, they retain their greatness from 5th(not all agree, but who cares). Their shooting makes sure they can hurt your opponent every turn, and the CML makes even more sure of this because of the range and high STR. While assault terminators are more durable(especially in CC), the tactical terminators can much more easily win their points back. In my first and only 6th edition game I played with them, they did the following:

 

Deployed them to the front of my deployment. Turn 1 they walked 6 inches forward and shot 4 missiles at that AV 12 walker thing from chaos marines(cant recall the name), no results beacause of bad rolls but at least an oppurtunity(had they had assault cannons I coundnt have shot anything with them). Turn 2 they walk 6 inches forward and shoot a squad of 8 berserkers, using my cmls to shoot krak missiles that ignore armor saves and shooting al my bolters twin linked(bolter drill from lysander) I kill all of them in 1 go. Turn 3 they walked 6 inches forward and throw all their shooting at a normal chaos marines squad, killing 6 of them(3 thanks to the CML krak missiles). Turn 4 lysander moves 6 inches forward out of the squad, the squad follows 5 inch. The squads shoots 4 missiles at the walker thing, hit 1 but again no results! Lysander chargers the walker thing and the squad as well, both succeed. The walker tries to hit my terminators but only hits 1 and I make the 5++ save. Lysander destroys the walker. Turn 5 Lysander walk forward towards enemy objectives to charge 5 nurgles things, terminators form a blockade for bloodcrushers trying to desperatly stop me from killing his scoring troop. While they form the blockade they shoot the last normal chaos marines and kill 3(no twin linked without lysander). They are out of charge range of the bloodcrushers for now. Turn 6 goes on, Lysander kills rest of the nurgle things and the terminators kill the bloodcrushers. I lost the game because my opponent scored first blood, getting him an extra VP. We both didnt score, and we both had denial units in our enemies deployment zones. So he had 2 to my 1. But my terminators were definitly not to blame.

 

I would never trade my CML's for Assault cannons, but I can see the assault cannons being a bit better vs infantry(especially if you dont play with lysander to twinlink their stormbolters).

[Bannus]

It's ok having great flexibility and all, but with a 2 shot missile launcher you will always be tempted to fire it at vehicles, which means the Storm Bolters will not be firing. Having an Assault Cannon will mean the most efficient choice to fire at by a long way will be infantry, thus not tempting you into wasting shots.

This partly boils down to shooting discipline. However, I see that you can have your cake and eat it too. :(

 

The storm bolters are limited to 24" while the CML has a 48" range (nothing that hasn't been mentioned before). Logically, the CML would focus on vehicles ( a job it is pretty decent at) until the opponent comes within storm bolter range. Once within that 24" range, target priority switches to anti-infantry.

[Race Bannon]

Ideal loadout of the terminators depend on your projected use of those terminators.

 

This in spades.

 

Everyone have different experiences that can color the discussion, so ultimately, what really needs to be done is to play with the item yourself: there is no "best" option. Granted, some options may be "better" than others either through points or ability. But it still comes down to how do you plan to use the unit.

 

Terminators, overall, have not changed much in 6th edition. What did change for them are how some weapons (specifically power weapons) affect them! So, the tactics from 5th ed to use Tactical Terminators and their weapons are still applicable. You can't stop what the opponent brings against them; if they bring a squad carrying Power Axes then your Terminators are in the same boat they were in the previous edition.

 

Having said all of this - the Assault Cannon is my personal favorite due to rules, fluff, and "rule of cool". I've used the other Heavy Weapon options and no matter what happened in those games I keep preferring the AC and use my own target priority rules that benefit that weapon and the squad.

 

:u:

[Schultzhoffen]

I've used Tactical Terminators for years. They are an excellent (and generally underated) unit.

 

The Cyclone ML gives good range and is useful anti-tank and anti-infantry. This weapon is my favourite (but the AC looks cool).

 

They're on the board from the start in a central location, can't be ignored and are good against all but the best CC units. How to use them is in their unit designation -they are a TACTICAL unit and gives one options. I love them.

 

I also believe in a balanced army so they fit well.

[Mysticaria]

I played 2 games yesterday with my squad of 10x tactical terminators with 2x CML and 2x Chainfist. First game I combat squaded them and put two CMLS in the back and went forward with the other five. Second game I kept them together and used as a deathstar to hold the center of the board. They were awesome both games. Some observations.

 

1- Combat squading was better. Because of the new wound allocation, the CMLs weren't at risk until all the other guys were dead.

2- Sergeant gear... he was decidedly weak with the powersword. If legal to convert to power-axe, I'm definately doing that.

3- CMLs were better at knocking out light infantry. Being able to stack glances was good.

4- Chainfists might not be needed. Or maybe just one. Vehicles are easy to hit now, and can glance a LR with S8

5- Resiliency was improved against power weapons, so squads that we used to beat now might not even take a termie with them.

6- People are taking more plasmaguns now... since powerweapons don't hurt termies and since plasma can glance light vehicles.

7- They can't do much to flyers, but they can do more than assault termies, and they can impact decision to fly/skim... if they skim, they die!

 

Overall, I think I like the Tactical Terminators a little better now. It is going to be equally as important to evaluate pre-game threats to them, but those threats are a little different than before. More plasmaguns are lurking around, and vindicators/medusas are also looking to be more popular, while power weapons can nearly be ignored. I'm definately going to have to update the Tactical Terminator article in my sig for this edition.

 

-Myst