Deathwing Boss weapons?

[Captain Rolunde]

Greetings Brothers.

 

I happen to be fortunate enough to have a pile of Terminators (mostly "Tactical" style) and 6th seems like a pretty favorable time to be using them. :lol:

 

So I was thinking about updating them a bit for the new Edition and mostly I am really wanting to know if there is basically a "best weapon set" for Belial now with 6th?

 

TH/SS seems like a pretty safe choice for better survivability and heavy hitting.

 

Seems the good old Storm Bolter/Sword load out could be pretty useful though since he does have a nice BS and it seems maybe the sword can take down at least non-Terminator saving challengers well enough?

 

The kit bashed model I've used for him in the past has Lightning Claws, and although plenty effective in CC it always seemed like I was maybe missing out just a little not making use of his BS. (And with the changes to PW and LC APs maybe they're not so great anymore?)

 

I could happily relegate this model down to being a 1st Co Squad Sgt and replace him with a new model though.

 

Also, while on the subject of Deathwing Bosses, is a Force Axe now the optimal option for a Librarian in TDA?

My old model has a Sword, but it'd be really easy to take that bit off and it's not painted so again a simple swap.

 

And also I guess while we're at it, how about them Terminator Chaplains?

 

Thanks for any help guys!

 

Edit:

 

Ok so after I posted this, I have since discovered that the "Deathwing Metrics" does include some weapon info for Belial. I'm still interested in any anecdotal information though.

[Brother Immolator]

Gathered from a quick view on the rules and not actual experience:

 

1st of all the terminator chaplain model looks way too cool for me to hack it down so he stays with his crozius ^^ (not to say that i have him in metal and replacing that hand needs a chainsaw). Plus with the current codex the interrogator if he chooses terminator armor comes with stock items and his melee weapon is his crozius so not really anything you can do here. And while his options for combi weapons are great (particularly combi plasma if i may say so) i have never bothered to use it for some reason. My advice for the time beeing: Leave them as is. The maul people rage against but higher str means easier to wound. Especially with rerolls.

 

I wouldnt go the far road of giving none of Special Chars an axe. I mean you would loose the high I value and risk them been instagibbed especially with challenges. I would either go with a sword or maul. More likely a sword since STR is pretty much irrelevant when you use it as a force weapon.

[Brother Tancred]

Personally I like taking Belial with TH/SS for the survivability, he is the only company master in the codex who doesn't get an iron halo. With the new rules for challenges he won't last long with a 5+ invun save and he isn't immune to instant death so it takes 1 powerfist attack to get through and he's gone :D. The storm shield drastically improves this allowing him to shrug of most things and the hammer will take down most opponents.

 

For your second HQ I think Librarian's are more important than a Chaplain, the models sweet and one of the best GWs ever made but with the increased psychic potential 6th has given use it would be silly not to take a Librarian. If you still want the re-rolls to hit a Libby can now take the primaris power for divination, Prescience, which allows re-rolls to hit in CC and shooting so if your good at passing psychic test it's better ;). For weapons it depends what you like/want as well as who you play against most eg. Orks, Marines etc... They each have merit and the axe allows your libby who doesn't have access to a powerfist to be effective against 2+ save opponents. The problem comes down to the fact it is I1 so who every your fighting will probably hit you back and squish him.

[Haranin]

I'm leaning towards running the librarian with a sword. If you get caught with 2+ stuff, Belial takes the challenge.

[EPK]

Personally I like taking Belial with TH/SS for the survivability, he is the only company master in the codex who doesn't get an iron halo. With the new rules for challenges he won't last long with a 5+ invun save and he isn't immune to instant death so it takes 1 powerfist attack to get through and he's gone ;). The storm shield drastically improves this allowing him to shrug of most things and the hammer will take down most opponents.

 

This is a very good point. Even before the new rulebook, the consensus was that TH/SS was probably the best way to go, and now with challenges you are exactly right. Of course you loose the initiative - something that is important for challenges.

 

EDIT -

 

However, on the flip side, I was just emailed a friend about this and he makes a good counter point -

 

...Remeber the only weapons that can get through 2+ save are PF, TH and CF (AP1 and 2). So having an invulnerable for challenges is not a nessecity. Your 2+ armour will be better than your 3++ SS. If someone can negate your armour in a challenge, then they are going last. You LCs and higher Initative should help you slaughter most challengers. you might have to worry about Terminator chararcter though armed with PF/TH/CF.

[Dedecus]

There's also the 2+ "Look out, Sir!" save that many people forget about which makes Belial with LC's very attractive

[Captain Rolunde]

Cool, thanks guys!

 

Well for the Librarian I think I'll keep him equipped with his Sword; I mean Swords and Dark Angels, how can you not want to?!

 

And yes indeed, the stock Chaplin in TDA does look really cool, so no need to mess with him either.

 

And good point on getting to use the new 6th ed pskyer rules by going with the Libby too.

 

I might have to just go ahead and have models for all 3 Belial load outs, although I do think I'll be leaning on the TH/SS combo most and the Lysander model looks like he'd probably enjoy a little conversion work and become the Fist of the Lion.

 

It wouldn't do for a Grand Master to be afraid of some punk with a Power Fist/Claw!

 

Ah, as to opponents, the guys I'd seem most of my games against cover the spread. I could face anything from BAs or BTs to Eldar, Dark Eldar, 'Nids, our resident Ork player, Necrons, Guard, and a Tau player.

A couple of the guys like to go more "competitive" and when they have a strong Chaos Codex they like to bring them to the table too.

 

So really it could be anything.

[Haranin]

Magnets are your friends

[Brother Tancred]

However, on the flip side, I was just emailed a friend about this and he makes a good counter point -

 

...Remeber the only weapons that can get through 2+ save are PF, TH and CF (AP1 and 2). So having an invulnerable for challenges is not a nessecity. Your 2+ armour will be better than your 3++ SS. If someone can negate your armour in a challenge, then they are going last. You LCs and higher Initative should help you slaughter most challengers. you might have to worry about Terminator chararcter though armed with PF/TH/CF.

 

You say that but most opponents with thoughs weapons will also be in TA so will be getting a 2+ save too. Also you could fail the LOS and then you only have a 5++.

[Ronin_eX]

Currently a TH/SS is the way to go, considering what it can do I'd go so far as to call it massively underpriced for the performance. A Terminator Captain from C: SM with a TH/SS comes in at a whopping 175 points while Belial is sitting pretty at 130. The vanilla Captain is more points with his terminator armour alone.

 

But all told the other two configurations don't really offer much. The basic loadout, while fluffy, is probably the worst of the bunch. While 2+ saves are huge boons in this edition, most character hunters will be bringing a fist along. The only hard counters are a good invuln (storm shield), Eternal Warrior (which Belial can't have) or a bike (again, something Belial doesn't have). So while Belial now gets that 2+ against anything wielding a power sword he will get shredded by a character with an axe or fist and his combat stats aren't impressive enough to make a master-crafted powersword a huge boon.

 

The twin claws could work as an alpha-strike challenger against some armies but he will get punked by a fist pretty easily if he can't shred the enemy in one round.

 

Meanwhile the TH/SS gives you the most bang for your buck. It grants a 2+/3++ save, has you striking at S8 with AP2 meaning most things you hit will die and has the most versatility in hand-to-hand. Remember that outside of a few rare weapons almost nothing has AP2 and still strikes at initiative. So going first isn't a huge deal anymore. If a guy with claws or a sword tries to take Belial down then he can weather the assault with a 2+ save (likely living and possibly taking now damage) and retaliate with a weapon that instantly kills most things and can cut through any armour.

 

Not bad for 130 points. That said, I don't expect Belial to make it through the next codex with the same general efficiency, so be warned. This is something GW will probably change (at least I hope they do, Belial is currently kind of bland and his key specialty is that he is undercosted).

 

But my personal ranking is TH/SS is the best build by a wide margin. Claws come in a distant second and the basic build is the worst. Since there are no cost differences the only reason for the other two are that they may fit your personal fluff better.

[facmanpob]

I'd go with LCs. If anyone challenges you with an AP1 or 2 weapon, accept the challenge with a TH/SS armed sergeant of Belial's command squad, and let Belial rip through the rest of the enemy unit with his WS5 I5 claws! Remember, you issue a challenge to a squad, not to an individual model. Any character can accept the challenge! :)

[EPK]

I'd go with LCs. If anyone challenges you with an AP1 or 2 weapon, accept the challenge with a TH/SS armed sergeant of Belial's command squad, and let Belial rip through the rest of the enemy unit with his WS5 I5 claws! Remember, you issue a challenge to a squad, not to an individual model. Any character can accept the challenge! :)

 

EDIT: Looked into it.

 

Got it, so the challenge goes to any character in the squad.

[facmanpob]

I'd go with LCs. If anyone challenges you with an AP1 or 2 weapon, accept the challenge with a TH/SS armed sergeant of Belial's command squad, and let Belial rip through the rest of the enemy unit with his WS5 I5 claws! Remember, you issue a challenge to a squad, not to an individual model. Any character can accept the challenge! :)

 

EDIT: Looked into it.

 

Got it, so the challenge goes to any character in the squad.

Yep, and sergeants are characters! (just not independent characters) :)

[march10k]

Depends...as a challenge-monkey, he needs TH/SS. If you pair him with a TH/SS sergeant to eat the challenges, however, he can murder MEQs till the cows come home with I5 WS5 lightning claws.

[Captain Rolunde]

Oh now that's a tricky one, isn't it?

 

It looks like both TH/SS and LC both have some nice potential.

 

I agree we'll probably see Belial come out of the next Codex rather a bit different. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Sword of Silence become a "Relic Blade" if nothing else.

 

But I won't keep speculation as to how he will end up come Codex, as that would just turn into "wish listing" then. ;)

 

Anyways, back to the stats we have right now. Not having at least an 4++or Eternal does seem like something to keep in mind. It wouldn't do for the Master of the Death Wing to get punked by a Sergeant or some Nob with a Powerfist/claw.

 

I expect with how effective 2+ is in melee now, it'll be a good idea to expect to face that. So yeah, against maybe Eldar or Orks LC would be good, the TH/SS combo does seem to be a pretty good default "bog standard" for him now though.

 

Hmmmm...

 

Oh and Haranin, indeed magnets are great. But for my own models the majority of my Wing was already built before I got it so unfortunately my existing models have what they have.

 

But any more I get will have the Magnet Treatment. :D

[Pbenner]

My problem with Terminators and Magnets is this:

 

I may get a total of (10) sets of arms (5) LC pairs and (5) TH//SS sets, but you only get (5) Shoulder Pad sets.

 

Unless you're magnetizing Shoulder Pads, they look funny to not have them. That, or you're buying extras off of flea-bay or something of the sort.

 

I also have always had problems with them rotating in their sockets with most of the larger pieces, making posing a pain. They're harder to transport as well, as they pop off even in foam and rattle around, causing chipped paint or broken pieces.

 

Personally, I have Steel Pins in all my terminator arms. I like them posed, and ready for action.

 

Best,

 

paul

[Captain Rolunde]

Oh good point, I didn't even think about needing a work around for the shoulder pads.

 

The "rotating prblem" could probably be worked around just like would be done with pinning but not actually gluing in both sides of it. So lets say you glue the pin in to the top of the arm bit, with the magnet below that, then make a hole in the shoulder of the body also above where that magnet is for the pin to slide into, then it should keep it from rotatating.

 

Hopefully.

 

But yeah, for cool "action poses" the arms would probably then need to be directly attached.

[Interrogator Stobz]

On the shoulder pad issue; FW will save the day, mix and match for untold goodness.

 

stobz

[Pbenner]

For me, that adds another $25/squad minimum for the additional shoulder pads (To do 10 arms), this is 150% of the retail cost of a box. It nearly doubles the $35/box that I usually pay for terminators.

 

While the Forgeworld pads are cool, I've only used them for my Command Squad due to the cost. The rest are stock and have (crappily) hand painted Deathwing emblems.

 

I have purchased additional sets of shoulder pads, primarily to build out my (2) sets of AoBR Terminators into "fully fledged" assault terminators, but on these I've also cut out their heads/helms and added "real" helms and heads to them as well.

 

Best,

 

Paul

[Interrogator Stobz]

Paul: "Long after the bitterness of the price has passed, the quality of the product remains".

If you want crap, buy crap, personal choice ;) . The OP seems to want enough to equip Belial with three options.

 

OP: A further option is the spare pads in the RW sprue(or is it vets? I forget as mine were chopped off years ago) there are heaps of those around DA players bits boxes. Find a friend or you can PM me and get some of mine.

 

Magnetising the body and arms I find is pretty secure, if you drop the model sure the arms fly off, but if they are not magnetised they break and fly off anyway. The rotating 'problem' is actually not a big deal either and makes the models easier to fit into B2B and under multi level terrain without breaking.

 

Here in the ROW FW is usually cheaper than GW BTW. Retail for GW Termies is $87 and FW pads are $19 including pp. what's that, 20%ish increase?

 

stobz

 

Edit: Came across unnecessarily harsh first time ;)

[Pbenner]

God Stobz, you're such a Richard!

 

No worries mate, difference of opinion I suppose. You Kiwis do pay a hefty price for your plastic crack though. I forget this at times. For me, I like differentiating my Command Squad as much as possible from the "normal" squads.

 

If you're offering them up for sale, I might be interested in getting my hands on some of your Terminator Shoulder pads with the iconography from the Veteran // Upgrade sprue. Shoot me a PM if you are - I really enjoy the look of them on my Sergeants. And from the looks of things, the Sarges in my squads may be needing to be rotated out to TH//SS to deal with Challenges, haha.

 

Best,

 

Paul

[Interrogator Stobz]

From this point onward, my Cranium shall be known as "Richard".

 

I'll recheck my bits box to see if I actually do have some spare :) you are welcome to them if I find any.

 

stobz, aka git ^_^

[Captain Rolunde]

Great ideas.

 

I've had this army since late 4th ed I think it was? I pretty much took 5th off and am just now looking into getting to playing again with 6th.

 

I have a pretty much fully assembled 1500 points worth of all Terminator action, although sadly I am pretty much lacking in having any TH/SS models in the army at all right now, and have all Assault Cannons and no CMLs.

(And I do have a couple Land Raiders, a Vindicator and a couple of Dreadnoughts. So I can pad the points out there too.)

 

I do have a few left over TH/SS's though so I think to update and finish off my army I'll get a Tac-Terminator box and those models will get the magentic arm treatment so they can swap between SB/PF and TH/SS. And I do have some of those DA vet sprues too, in fact almost the entire army is done up with those.

 

I normally arange them in squads of same shoulders but the last squad has mixed pads, which honestly drives me a little nuts, heh.

 

I've tried "gently" to remove them, but they're on pretty well there and I don't want to break them so I just have to suck it up. Pluis if I build another squad I could probably get that worked out too then.

 

I do have a fully built Belial with LC already, so for the TH/SS one I just need to decide if I want to build another one out of plastics from scratch; or modify a Lysander model for him.

 

If I do go plastics I could magnetise for arm swaps, but since it looks like I'll still pretty much be using him as a CC specialist, I won't worry too much about his SB/PS options until the new codex comes out, assuming that then it will be worth using.

[rpnightsend]

So heres how i personally would equip them:

Belial: LC's. Besides the fact thats how i have him modelled (although i magnetized him), i want to take advantage of his I5. Scare hidden power fists and ruin the day of anything under I5.

Librarian: Power Axe. Why? Hes I4, so strikes simultaneously with pretty much everyone anyways. Give him a storm shield (not sure if DA libbys can take these, but if he can, do it). Then (hopefully) get that force weapon psychic roll off and no more enemy IC. For me its more reliable then a fist because of bikes being a hard upgrade to toughness and the fact i fight nids and orks all the time whose big guys are T5 and 6

Sergeant: In Belial's squad, TH/SS. In the Librarian's, 2 LC's. (To cover what the other doesnt have). In the chaplain's, i would consider either one, but probably go for TH/SS to handle Instant death stuff.

[Ajax Tlamunus]

For Librarians, I'm rather fond of the Force Staff myself. For one, using a staff just screams "wizard" in a way that swords and axes just don't... and S6 AP4 Concussive and Force makes him an excellent monster hunter.