Thunder Hammer Storm Shield

[greendestiny]

Do you still feel that the THSS combo on terminators is still great? Or are you looking at it and thinking. I should spend those points on something else?

[*Furyou Miko]

It's still rock hard, and there are a LOT of things that can still smite them... if you're going to have a thunder hammer, you really, really want a storm shield to keep you alive after the first turn you get to use it (and Meltaguns/exorcists/lascannons are still termi-killers).

[Heru2012]

Also due to wound allocation you can use those lightning claws again!

[Darkmagi]

Also However due to the massive buff termies for to CC survivability the lightning claw versions are alot more survivable then they used to be, they don't have to rely on their invul for the odd sargent power wep they get their armor save!

[greendestiny]

Other than the thunder hammer what other weapons go nicely with the storm shield?

[Ajax Tlamunus]

In the Dark Angels forum, I've started a thread on Deathwing Metrics, to look at the possibly squad loaduts for our First Legion Terminators.

 

The Storm Bolter & Powerfist is probably the best all-rounder, which isn't too surprising, as he adds some ranged punch to the solid combat abilities of a Terminator. What may surprise some is just how close it comes to the Thunderhammer. The `fist lacks concussive and the 3++ save, but he can shoot and his native 5++ isn't exactly bad.

 

Dual Lighting Claws is the top tier in putting the hurt on infantry, but does give up all shooting ability to do this and is pretty pitiful against vehicles... The Storm Bolter & Power Sword combination, presently only an option for Sergeants in the Deathwing, is probably still worth taking. Not as good in melee as, literally, and other option available to the squad, the powersword allows the Sergeant to act at I4 in challenges or during pile in, and with the Precise Shot rules 22% of the shots he takes on regular MEQs will benefit... you'll still need to cause a wound and get a failed Saved. But, hey, one less plasmagunner on their team.

 

So, as with most things, it is going to depend on what you need the model to do as part of its unit, and what you need the unit to do as part of its army.

 

Because the Deathwing are able to mix "assault" and "tactical" Terminators into our five-man squads, I'm personally leaning towards 1x Claws & Cyclone, 2x Thunderhammer, 1x Stormbolter & Powerfist, and 1x Stormbolter & Power Sword as my general purpose squads, they'll serve as something akin to a Tactical Squad when I run pure Deathwing and will be my support element for a "Greenwing" list.

[ImperialFist_36]

TH SS Terminators... simply put the hardest unit to kill I have faced to date. Last time out in 1000 pts game, Marines v Marines, my opponents TH SS Terminators managed to massacre the vast majority of my army on their own. Riding in Land Raider Redeemer and charing my lines in second turn... OUCH!!!

 

Even Lascannon and Multi Melta shots were bouncing of them.

 

I had for some reason always overlooked them in the SM codex, but after the game took a look. I couldn't believe they were only 200 pts!

[spartan249]

They are pretty much the go to option in C:SM for close combat punch and survivability. Everything else is either a bit pricier or much less effective. They're probably going to be even more of a pain in the butt since power weapons are no longer as effective against them as before, so shooting becomes the prime solution to them.

[Captain Idaho]

I've noticed a lot of people saying Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields (and Grey Knights for that matter) got a massive boost in 6th edition because of power weapons going to AP3, but this is incorrect. Sure, the odd power weapon which got through their invulnerable saves causes a wound, but no one used power weapons as their preferred method of taking down Terminators, let alone Halberd wielding Paladins!

 

It's like the new edition ruined everyone's understanding on the optimised methods of killing opposing units, because firing a couple Lascannons and melta weapons at a unit with a 3+ invulnerable save is never going to work well unless your opponent has awful luck.

 

What kills TH/SS Terminators best is massed attacks, and always has been like that since 5th edition Codex Space Marines. Nothing has changed. Of course, sometimes I'd use Honour Guard to finish off squads since they would strike first with loads of attacks, but that was a rare method of killing them and still utilised the tried and tested method of lots of attacks.

 

The rules for vehicles now means 2nd turn assaults are looking likely, but that's just the game. If you can snackrifice a unit or transport to allow you to hit the squad with 40 odd bolter shots plus a vehicle firing etc, suddenly they won't look as scary.

[ImperialFist_36]

It's like the new edition ruined everyone's understanding on the optimised methods of killing opposing units, because firing a couple Lascannons and melta weapons at a unit with a 3+ invulnerable save is never going to work well unless your opponent has awful luck.

 

In my defence it wasn't only the Lascannons or Multi Melta I was firing at them, it was an entire tactical squad rapid firing, supported by a combat squad rapid firing and a an autocannon, heavy bolter sponson armed Predator. Still not a scratch on them.

 

True it wasn't helped by the fact they were lead by Vulcan and he was positioned so that he took the hits first, so the two unsaved wounds I did manage to inflict he took.

 

Problem was the tactical sqaud only got one round of firing in before the terminators were in amongst them splitting skulls. This then vastly reduced the fire power I could hit them with in the following turn.

 

Also while I was concentrating all my fire on the Terminators making a mess of my lines still had to deal with the Redeemer flaming everything in sight, a tactical squad advancing on my line plus supporting Razor Back and Rhino.

 

I did have some really bad dice rolls but still for 200 pts I still say they are overpowered. Certainly in smaller pts games.

[spartan249]

My primary answer to OPFOR TH/SS units was Lascannons/meltas/plasma coupled with Null Zone (later DCA charges with all the psychic fixings to get them up to S6).

 

It's not massed attacks that kills terminators, it's massed wounds. Bolters don't inflict nearly enough wounds to take terminators down in a timely fashion, especially when the wielders are marines. Ignore their greatest asset and undermine their greatest defense to erase them. This entails using the tools in the relevant codices in concert to address TH/SS termies.

 

In any case, they're still one of the most efficient CC units in C:SM as, point for point, the damage potential is pretty much unmatched. Honor Guard come close, but they are focused on a different type of target, one that is already easily handled by the rest of the C:SM armory.

[ImperialFist_36]

My primary answer to OPFOR TH/SS units was Lascannons/meltas/plasma coupled with Null Zone (later DCA charges with all the psychic fixings to get them up to S6).

 

It's not massed attacks that kills terminators, it's massed wounds. Bolters don't inflict nearly enough wounds to take terminators down in a timely fashion, especially when the wielders are marines. Ignore their greatest asset and undermine their greatest defense to erase them. This entails using the tools in the relevant codices in concert to address TH/SS termies.

 

In any case, they're still one of the most efficient CC units in C:SM as, point for point, the damage potential is pretty much unmatched. Honor Guard come close, but they are focused on a different type of target, one that is already easily handled by the rest of the C:SM armory.

 

The first unit they TH SS charged were my Plasma Cannon armed devastor combat squad, and as they charged directly after disembarking from Land Raider didn't even get chance to fire a shot.

 

I fully agree that pts wise they are the best CC unit available to Space Marines, but for me they are too low in pts value. Given that you get the 3++ save instead of 5++ save as you do with normal terminators you should be paying for it, not getting it for free.

[Captain Idaho]

It's like the new edition ruined everyone's understanding on the optimised methods of killing opposing units, because firing a couple Lascannons and melta weapons at a unit with a 3+ invulnerable save is never going to work well unless your opponent has awful luck.

 

In my defence it wasn't only the Lascannons or Multi Melta I was firing at them, it was an entire tactical squad rapid firing, supported by a combat squad rapid firing and a an autocannon, heavy bolter sponson armed Predator. Still not a scratch on them.

 

I wasn't having a pop, it's just we've seen this complaint about Thunder Hammer Terminators before! Many times before in fact! ;)

 

I fully agree that pts wise they are the best CC unit available to Space Marines, but for me they are too low in pts value. Given that you get the 3++ save instead of 5++ save as you do with normal terminators you should be paying for it, not getting it for free.

 

What what what! They are awesome, I dispute they are the best CC unit available. But I would say that!

 

It's not massed attacks that kills terminators, it's massed wounds. Bolters don't inflict nearly enough wounds to take terminators down in a timely fashion, especially when the wielders are marines. Ignore their greatest asset and undermine their greatest defense to erase them. This entails using the tools in the relevant codices in concert to address TH/SS termies.

 

Well, yes, massed wounds. Semantics really, since you cause massed wounds by massed hits. :lol:

[thade]

Hammernators have changed little from the previous edition. Shoot them full of holes. FULL of holes. Pour as much rapid-fire in as you can. Surround them with units and make them either have to multi-charge or choose their targets. Wear them down. Use Combat Tactics (if your codex gives it to you) to choose to fall back out of combat and continue rapid-firing until they die from it.

 

Also, Vindicators, Lascannon Devs, and the Dangerous-Terrain shot from the Thunderfire Cannon are still on the table.

 

As for GK, S5 Psybolt Ammo and Psycannons means you shoot them full of holes at good range. :lol:

 

Melee combat should always be a last resort against Hammernators.

[DarkGuard]

Everyone has summed it up nicely, Hammernators are pretty much the same.

 

However, I would say they may have got a little less durable in comparison to last edition. Plasma deals with them better than melta, and with the changes to vehicles we'll likely see more plasma than melta, thereby meaning Hammernators will have to take more invulnerable saves. Reduced cover saves will also mean that those plasma shots will likely cause more damage.

 

And don't forget that they still incur a 250pt tax to use them effectively.

[thade]

And don't forget that they still incur a 250pt tax to use them effectively.

Honestly, ten foot-slogging Hammernators are a tough nut to crack. They can easily control whatever quadrant of the table they're in, especially with a 2d6" charge range...never know when they'll come flying at you.

 

ADDENDUM: Okay, so that 250 point tax could actually be "moar hammernators" instead of "a land raider". ^_^ So, you're still right.

[DarkGuard]

And don't forget that they still incur a 250pt tax to use them effectively.

Honestly, ten foot-slogging Hammernators are a tough nut to crack. They can easily control whatever quadrant of the table they're in, especially with a 2d6" charge range...never know when they'll come flying at you.

 

True, but a 2D6" charge range isn't reliable, and beyond that they're moving 6" a turn. And if they spread out then they limit the movement somewhat of other units in the army.

[thade]

True, but a 2D6" charge range isn't reliable, and beyond that they're moving 6" a turn.

Fair enough, but while it's not reliable it's still a threat..and when you're risking "like two dozen S8 AP2 attacks" it's a pretty big risk to take.

 

And if they spread out then they limit the movement somewhat of other units in the army.

True. Something to be said for flanking them on all sides with Tacticals and Scouts, shooting them full of holes, presenting them with too many targets.

[Captain Idaho]

As dangerous as foot Assault Terminators are, every unit out there with a rapid fire weapon can pepper them with shots every turn. Could take them 3 turns or more to walk into range, and if they suffer a couple losses a turn they can look at losing 6 models before they even reach the enemy! Of course they can teleport, including with Gate of Infinity, but still it looks to be an unreliable tactic.

 

I'd be more worried if they were in a Landraider!