How to beat a stern-guard vulkan list?

[Polythemus]

So ive faced off against a sternguard droppod list twice led by vulkan. The prob i seem to have is that with all the damn rerolls and melta/ template weapons my deathwing get shredded (those templates are especially nasty on over watch). The first game he killed three th/ss guys who failed their 3++ and a lc guy in one round, i got tabled on turn 7. the second game it was closer on vp but still lost and ended up with only two models left. Ill post my and his lists later. But so far he has given me the most trouble of any army ive played against. Of my three total losses two have been versus him the other was a dark eldar game. Total record (6-3-2) since begining the hobby in march. Right now im just looking for some general advice on facing this army, cause his initial drop on turn one is really nasty. Help out a fellow dark angel!

[Raven Angel]

Real question is what is your total collection of models? Can't advise on list changes without knowing what your options are.

[Ajax Tlamunus]

Real question is what is your total collection of models? Can't advise on list changes without knowing what your options are.

 

We'd also need to know what you are currently using. You wouldn't want the entire community to tell you to take X, Y, and Z, only to find you that's exactly what you had!

 

On general principles, sight unseen, are you choosing the fights and controlling the flow of the battle; or, are you reacting to his choices? Deathwing cannot afford to play reactionary.

[Cypher 102]

(those templates are especially nasty on over watch).

Template and blast weapons can't be used on overwatch.

[Thargrim_Bloodwolf]

Template weapons can, I believe they only do D3 its each though rather than putting down the templates.

[Ajax Tlamunus]

(those templates are especially nasty on over watch).

Template and blast weapons can't be used on overwatch.

Not entirely true. Flamers and most other flamer-esque weapons can be used on Overwatch as part of their specific rules, causing d3 automatic hits on the assaulting unit. Salamanders, led by Vulkan, still get to apply their mastercrafted bonus to this. Cue animated GIF from Mad Doc:

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

yep, flamers can be used. but it is D3 auto hits.

 

As I play C: SM as well as DA, ive used Sternguard several times. They die quickly in close combat against units that are good at close combat. Power weapons and the like are your friend. I would also advise Krak missiles from your Cyclones in order to gain at least one kill per DW. Remember, that Vulkan does not ignore your save in CC anymore, at all. However, he is S 7 (unless the spear he wields is NOT a Lance, in which case, its probably a sword, but looking at it makes me think 'lance/spear' weapon)

 

I also do not believe flamers/meltas are counted as master-crafted, but twin-linked.

 

Another question I have, is how many Droppods does he have, and how many does he bring on in the first turn?

 

But, as others have said, without yours and his lists, we can only offer minimal advice.

[Alys Dwr]

First thing that springs to mind is spread out, run away and then shoot him with storm bolters. Both meltas and flamers are short range so it should be possible to deny him a lot of his re-roll shooting.

 

And with flamers needing to be near the front of a squad to fire, you should be able to pick them off quite nicely with 6th ed wound allocation.

 

Or go for deathwing assault and try and go second. Let his pods scream into an empty warzone, teleport in around the enemy and riddle them with bullets.

 

Al

[ForTheLion]

Assuming you have 31 termie with 3++ saves, you could lose some when you charge, but even if 1 gets into close combat ur gna whoop his ass! Keep all youre deathwing together...

 

You are playing deahwing....RIGHT? "Intense gaze"

[Polythemus]

well sorry for the delay in this. I wont give you the entire battle report as I plan to do the first battle comic book style. The first game was played during 5ed. It was a 1500 point game spearhead deploy capture and control.

My list was 3 deathwing squads, all with cml,

2 assault basically the same armament as in previous battle reports mixed TH/SS and LC,

1 tactical deathwing (SB/PF),

Belial

i used a tactical squad with Missle launcher, (which i take because at the time I only had 3 termie squads and they are good for holding objectives in the rear.

a small bike squad with melta and a mutimelta AB,

a librarian

and a dread Asscan/ PW

 

he used sternguard droppod (which arrived first turn) with like at least 3 possibly 4 melta, 3 flamers and vulkan

scout squad which held his objective

tactical squad with librarian with teleport and smite

squad of terminators, with hvy flamer

assault squad in a rhino

vindicator

deepstriking speeder with twin linked mutimelta and hvy flamer.

 

i didnt realize at the time he could drop the pod on turn one. as i mentioned above he combat squaded on exiting the drop pod and proceeded to melta all but a a single LC terminator.

 

The second time we played was 6ed. i borrowed a few things cause i try not to play with unpainted models and dont have room for everything. the list was made to try to up the points value to 2000 so that we could play at that level, i am aware its not ideal. mission was purge the alien and vanguard deployment

My list belial

3 deathwing squads, all with cml,

2 assault basically the same armament as in previous battle reports mixed TH/SS and LC, apothecary and banner with belial

1 tactical deathwing (SB/PF),

tactical squad

6bikes with melta, AB, LS tornado (i know this is an expensive vp waiting to happen but didn't have enough models)

Dread with Asscan/PW

Dread with twin linked Las / Missle launcher

librarian ill be honest i like the librarian better than a chaplain cause he can do more stuff and is more fun to use, and the whole personality of chaplians, blech!

 

 

his list 4 drop pods.

2 dropped sternguard all with at least 3 melta 3 flamers per squad bot 1st turn killing both dreads, the LS, and the one terminator from second assault squad.

later on he dropped one dread with multimelta, and an empty droppod that was the dedicated transport for the...

tactical squad with las cannon

a second tactical squad

a scout squad with assault weaps

2 scout with sniper rifles cloaks

aegis defense line and a quad gun

a pred with autocannon

 

1a My turn one, shooting with long range dread, and land speeder killing some scouts

1b the sternguard all combat squadded upon exiting the pods to divide their fire bot 1st turn killing both dreads, the LS, and the one terminator from second assault squad.

2a i charged the combat squad with vulkan with 4 assault termies, three died to overwatch from like 9 wounds due to the various templates and melta, then i rolled another one when vulkan did one wound to me at init 5.

2b that same turn my vindicator was destroyed, and my tactical squad assaulted and killed

3a libby malediction on vulkan squad, tactical termies shoot him to smithereens. I divided the bikes on outflank which was prolly stupid. one group of three was killed the turn it arrived from like 4 wounds and the other i thought could kill a combat squad in a assault since i gave the sarge a power weapon. nope just a tarpit. Belial and his group i deepstriked on turn 3. They were the only reason i got close in VP as his squad proceeded to kill, rhino, scout squad 1, tactical squad, and assault scouts bfore game ended. that squad ends with only belial, and the CML - LC termie.

3b dread drops and assaults tactical termies, who can only bring him to 1 HP while he crushes all of them. As i said before i think I ended the game with only the two terminators left.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

hmmm, i need to read the C: SM rule again (no codex on me) but if he dropped all pods on turn 1...im not sure he can do that. I thought it was up to half the Droppods on turn 1 and the rest auto arrive on turn 2. But, like I said, I need to read the rule again.

EDIT: He can not droppod all Pods in on turn 1, but only half (rounding up) and then must roll, as per normal, for reserves.

 

However, have you considered taking and apothecary and banner in a DW squad with Belial? With the extra 5+ FNP and the extra attack, you should be able to cause intense pain on any squad foolish enough to hang around. Another option is taking a Plasma Cannon and Plasma Gun Tactical Squad, hide in cover and blow them away when they land.

 

Also, as others have said, DWA him by taking the second turn and blowing them all apart with concentrated Krak and Storm Bolter fire

[facmanpob]

A number of points spring to mind:

 

1) take a good look at his list to check it is legal and he is using it correctly......in game 2 you say that he killed 2 dreads and a landspeeder with his sternguard on turn 1, presumably using combi-meltas. You then say that on the next turn he used melta on your charging terminators.........he can't do this if he has already fired his combis. Alternatively, he's packing actual meltaguns...but then he can only have 2 per 10-man squad.....anyway you get my point, his melta usage sounds a bit suspicious. 9 wounds from a 5 man combat squad shooting on overwatch sounds like a lot, and if most of them came from flamers (Auto D3 hits) then your 2+ armour save should have protected you from them! And it is impossible for him to do 9 melta wounds from 1 combat squad!

 

2) spread out! Melta-toting sternguard from drop pods don't have a huge effective range, so spread out and block your deployment area so that his pods have to land outside, thus limiting what he can effectively shoot at. Alternatively, reserve your DW so that they are safe. Even if you DWA on turn 1 before his pods arrive, do so in his deployment area - this forces him to either land his sternguard near his own deployment area to go after your termies, or land in your deployment zone and go after the rest of your forces.

 

3) kill everything else in his list! In list 1 (1500 points), fully 1/3 of his army points are contained in the drop pod (10 sternguard plus special weapons, drop pod and Vulkan). Once this unit has landed and shot its alpha strike, it lacks mobility and is vulnerable to AP2 fire. In list 2, he takes 2 full sternguard squads in pods with Vulkan - thats about 800 points. If you can minimise the alpha strike of these guys then they are vulnerable to things like your Vindy!

 

:)

[Polythemus]

Bohemond- if i was unclear my apologies. In game 1500pts he dropped one pod turn one. In game 2000pts he dropped 2 sternguard pods in turn one, then two pods on turn three (one dread, one empty)

 

Faceman pob - hes using combi meltas im just not aware enough to know the difference of how they work or how to exploit that fact, hence my post. If he shoots a combi weapon, can the special weapon not fire until his next shooting phase?

The overwatch shooting worked like this. Assault termies declare charge on vulkan combat squad. Three combi flamers cause 7 auto hits, plus vulkan and other bolters rapid fire, cuasing more hits, he gets to re-roll all the flamer wounds getting like 6 wounds, plus he makes his 3 other bolter wounds. Statistically i should fail 1.5 saves but instead three ones came up.

Spreading out Is a good plan but with vanguard deployment both times i guess i should try to spread the squads themselves out so that they act as an anti drop pod deplyment. But its hard with the smaller space with which to deploy. My vehicles pretty much stood no chance. Your effective range comment is also good to point out, which i should have used to my advantage with the bikes.

[Raven Angel]

Combi weapons are a 1shot per game special weapon on a bolter. Once he shoots the the special he cant use it again for the rest of the game. keep track so you know he's not geting extra shooting he shouldn't.

[EPK]

Faceman pob - hes using combi meltas im just not aware enough to know the difference of how they work or how to exploit that fact, hence my post. If he shoots a combi weapon, can the special weapon not fire until his next shooting phase?

 

Well now we know one of the reason's his list is giving you a hard time - hopefully he also wasn't aware of the rule - you should let him know. As noted, it's a one shot and than it's just a regular bolter (which he can't fire at the same time as the cobi-melta shot).

[Sviar]

I used to run a Raven Guard list with Drop pod Combi Plasma Sterngurds, You cant protect yourself from them, but Facemanpob has an good advice on first turn DP assult, which makes it harder for players who use this technique. Se quote below. I used mine to hunt Predators or Vindicators or equivalent. Well with the allies rule I still use them beacuse it is effective. Here is what you do: You charge them with your DW(it is as easy att that, just hope he did not take out something big and expensive). For extra protection a libby in your DW for 5+ FNP or put the wounds on your TH/SS termis who has an 5+ inv. save, due to the SS.

 

2) spread out! Melta-toting sternguard from drop pods don't have a huge effective range, so spread out and block your deployment area so that his pods have to land outside, thus limiting what he can effectively shoot at. Alternatively, reserve your DW so that they are safe.

 

EDIT: Clarification.

[Vazzy]

yep, flamers can be used. but it is D3 auto hits.

 

As I play C: SM as well as DA, ive used Sternguard several times. They die quickly in close combat against units that are good at close combat. Power weapons and the like are your friend. I would also advise Krak missiles from your Cyclones in order to gain at least one kill per DW. Remember, that Vulkan does not ignore your save in CC anymore, at all. However, he is S 7 (unless the spear he wields is NOT a Lance, in which case, its probably a sword, but looking at it makes me think 'lance/spear' weapon) (Vulcan has a relic blade so if I remember correctly, it still is ap 2)

 

I also do not believe flamers/meltas are counted as master-crafted, but twin-linked.

 

Another question I have, is how many Droppods does he have, and how many does he bring on in the first turn?

 

But, as others have said, without yours and his lists, we can only offer minimal advice.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

according to the rulebook, under unusual power weapons section, it says that any power weapon that has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with it's additional rules and characteristics.

 

I assume, therefore, that Vulkan now has an AP 3 PW that makes him 2 6 based on this rule.

 

Guess we can also assume that Frost Axes/Blades and any other special weapon of the sort like this is treated as an AP 3 Melee weapon then :devil: But I am sure this can be fully debated somewhere else.

[Harleqvin]

Yeah. Vulkan's melee weapon would be an AP 3 master crafted 2handed power weapon that resolves wounds based off of strength 6, nothing else. And for other weapons it all depends on if there is more than it stating that it's master-crafted (although that may be argued whether it makes it into unusual...) It would need something like the GK nemises force halberd. It's an AP 3 power weapon that makes you swing at +2 init. Nothing else.

 

So you would need to worry about who is gonna swing on Vulkan in the assault if they are not wearing TDA.

[Ronin_eX]

according to the rulebook, under unusual power weapons section, it says that any power weapon that has it's own unique close combat rules, treat it as an AP 3 Melee weapon with it's additional rules and characteristics.

 

I assume, therefore, that Vulkan now has an AP 3 PW that makes him 2 6 based on this rule.

 

Guess we can also assume that Frost Axes/Blades and any other special weapon of the sort like this is treated as an AP 3 Melee weapon then :D But I am sure this can be fully debated somewhere else.

 

Depends on whether it is FAQ'd or not. Frost Blades/Axes get a direct mention in the SW FAQ (basically they function as their type of power weapon but with an additional +1S). But most special weapons wielded by characters and referred to as a power weapon fall under unusual rules and are AP3. Only things never referred to as power weapons or that got a mention in the FAQ work differently (bone swords, witch blades, frost weapons, etc.).

[Brother Landrain]

I used to run a Raven Guard list with Drop pod Combi Plasma Sterngurds, You cant protect yourself from them, ....

 

In 6th Edition there is some defense for this... (and it is very Dark Angelly Good)

Behold ...

 

The Contemptor Pattern Mortis Dreadnought

 

upgraded via 6th Edition... here.

 

A Contemptor Pattern Mortis dreadnought armed with twin Kheres Assault Cannons, has the Skyfire AND Interceptor Special rules.

At Heavy 6 and Rending, the Kheres armed Mortis Dread can pump 12 Stength 6, AP 4 shots into a 5 man Sternguard Squad.

The turn that they Land and before they get to shoot back, at normal BS(4).

I am not 100% sure, but this may also affect the CML, so thats a Heavy 2 added on top. :)

 

A pair of these Dreadnoughts make a great defense against just about any Deep Strike army.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

not all of us can afford FW prices mate :D

 

@for Vulkan: nah, he has no mention in the FAQ. Its just an unusual power weapon, like all the PW that have an additional rule (bar master-Crafted)

[Brother Landrain]

not all of us can afford FW prices mate ;)

 

@for Vulkan: nah, he has no mention in the FAQ. Its just an unusual power weapon, like all the PW that have an additional rule (bar master-Crafted)

 

A little bit of kit-bashing with a Tau Battle Suit some SM bits and some plasticard and you can make your own Contemptor Dreadnought

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

not all of us can afford FW prices mate :D

 

@for Vulkan: nah, he has no mention in the FAQ. Its just an unusual power weapon, like all the PW that have an additional rule (bar master-Crafted)

 

A little bit of kit-bashing with a Tau Battle Suit some SM bits and some plasticard and you can make your own Contemptor Dreadnought

 

true. and yes, this does offer a good potential counter to the list.

 

Other alternatives, are taking Belial with an apoth and banner. That smashes through most enemy units. making sure hes only shooting Melta once. Possibly even taking some allied SM with sniper scouts, a StormTalon and a Librarian? Good powers, take epistolary and so you can use 2 a turn, and the StormTalon provides air superiority for you. and, you can have all this for....400 points with a basic epistolary, 5 scouts with missiles, snipers and cloaks and a StormTalon with Typhoon Missile Launchers, 440 if you take termi armour with a SS (which I recommend)

[Ajax Tlamunus]

My primary army for the past five years has been an Armoured Battlegroup, from Imperial Armor Vol. 1. I own something close to 20 Leman Russ tanks, half of them Forge World variants (although many "jumped" into the (so-called) standard codex when it was released under 5th Edition), so I consider myself something of an veteran hand on the topic.

 

As to price: The main body of the Contemptor Dreadnought is £30.00, the basic Citadel Dreadnoughts costs £28.00 each... Granted, arms for the Contemptor run £7.50 each, but is not that difficult to kitbash some stand-ins, and since the Citadel ones tend to come with a pretty limited selection of arms, you'd probably wind up kitbashing or bitz ordering the one you want anyway.

 

Forge World really isn't that much more expensive than Citadel... usually £2.00 to £8.00 more than whatever Citadel kit is is an alternative for. It's not all Titans and Thunderhawks! Forge World models also tend to knock the socks of onlookers due to their quality scuplts.

 

As to legality: An unfortunate meme has long haunted Forge World players in our community, that FW army lists and models are "illegal," "apocalypse only," or "require your opponent's permission." None of this is true. Every current Imperial Armour book is designed for and compatible with standard Warhammer 40,000 rules. The sole exception are super-heavies, titans, and apocalypse formations. Unfortunately, most Tournaments disallow FW units and lists... wich creates a sort of feed-back loop in the regular community.

 

My advice, buy the toy soldiers you want to play with. I've never met anyone who wouldn't give my FW tanks a go in a casual game, things like the Destroyer Tank Hunter, autocannon turret Chimera, and Land Raider Ares seem scary as heck on paper. They're not, they'rejust codex tanks with odd guns... once my regular opponents figured this out, they all happily kicked my ass same as any other unit.