Grand Master Tchezzarus Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Just a quik question really : Does a purgation squad with psycanon hit flyer on a 6+ or a 4+ when using theire power? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256707-purgation-squad-as-anti-flyer/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrywalker Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 great idea but unfortunately it doesnt say anything about that in the rules, makes sense fluff wise though Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256707-purgation-squad-as-anti-flyer/#findComment-3123441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
henrywalker Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 mind you a full squad of psycannons gets 16 shots of which 2-3 will hit then on averge one will at least glance Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256707-purgation-squad-as-anti-flyer/#findComment-3123450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
T3mpl@r Crusade Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 pair up with an inquisitor taking powers from the divination table, and your rerolling hits too. even better Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256707-purgation-squad-as-anti-flyer/#findComment-3123822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 I tried it. Statistical analysis shows that at least a few glances/pens should result from one volley, but I hardly got any. The rolls have to be pretty darn good to do damage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256707-purgation-squad-as-anti-flyer/#findComment-3123875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 No, they are terrible. If you want shooty Knights, take Purifiers instead. Unlike Purgators, they can still fight in close-combat, and with re-rolls from 'Prescience' they're as deadly as Terminators (although not as durable obviously). The only good thing Purgators bring is the 5-man unit with four incinerators and a Justicar hammer, loaded into a Rhino. It's called the Trogdor Build Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256707-purgation-squad-as-anti-flyer/#findComment-3123908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Hold on a minute Darius, Purgation Knights have a few advantages over Purifiers. The two units have vastly different uses and powers tailored to those uses. The choice is never that cut and dry. Purifiers are most at home in CQB. Cheap weapons, loads of attacks, Cleansing Flame, all that jazz. They're the obvious choice in close quarters and a good choice for troops if you can stomach taking Crowe. Purgations have an entirely different role: Mid range fire support. They're meant to be right behind the front line, providing support to the frontline terminators/strike squads/henchmen. In this role, Psycannon armed Purgation Squads are probably the best configuration to use, hence the higher price. Astral Aim is an amazing power to have, especially in this edition where cover saves can quickly enter the 3+/2+ level and where LOS can be blocked quickly. You have to seriously consider the rest of the army and what role you need filled. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256707-purgation-squad-as-anti-flyer/#findComment-3124000 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 There's only 1 thing that Purgators have over Purifiers. Well 2. :) 1) Teleport Homer on the Justicar 2) 4 Psycannons on 5 guys, instead of needing 10. If niether of those are issues to you (points and ablative wounds takes care of #2), then Purifiers all the way. Oh and Astral Aim sucks. You can 'shoot' minis out of LoS with it. But you can't wound them or remove them as casualties. So it's rather, well, useless. Cleansing Flame however, isn't. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256707-purgation-squad-as-anti-flyer/#findComment-3124155 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartan249 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Thanks GW. Let's render all weapons that ignore LOS restrictions useless, that's just lovely. Until GW pulls their heads out their asses on this, I'm playing RAI. RAW arguments against a rule working as it's obviously designed are only pulled by people who believe they have something to gain by doing so, and are people that I will not play 40k with. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256707-purgation-squad-as-anti-flyer/#findComment-3124175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Also, Astral Aim hasn't been changed and gives out a 'better than usual' 4+ Cover save. Over the now more common 5+. So it still sucks, even if you can wound and remove those out of LoS. :( 10 Man Squad comparison; Purifiers; Justicar, NFH, 9 x Purifiers, 4 x Psycannons: 282 Purgators; Justicar, NFH, 9 x Purgators, 4 x Psycannons: 283 So, 1 point *more* expensive. For the same shooting, less CC attacks, and no Fearless. Obviously, if you want 4 Psycannons, the Purgators are cheaper, but you lose important ablative bodies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256707-purgation-squad-as-anti-flyer/#findComment-3124230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamv6 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Purifiers; Justicar, NFH, 9 x Purifiers, 4 x Psycannons: 282 Purgators; Justicar, NFH, 9 x Purgators, 4 x Psycannons: 283 Gentleman, good analysis. The other interesting points are that Purifiers at LD9 (all of them), Purgation only LD8. One of the reasons I take purgation squad is for the teleport homer, and the 4x Psycannons in a 5man squad. I use them to support my strike squads and Purifiers. IMHO, Purifiers are awesome, but I want them moving forward and engaging the enemy, which makes the psycannons expensive when I am only getting 2 shots with them. As such, I always take the free incinerators with my Purifiers... got to love a ST6 template which ignores cover :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256707-purgation-squad-as-anti-flyer/#findComment-3124254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Hold on a minute Darius, Purgation Knights have a few advantages over Purifiers. The two units have vastly different uses and powers tailored to those uses. The choice is never that cut and dry. Advantages, advantages...where did you leave them, Matt? In the appendix maybe? I swear.... Cost: The same, Purifiers are a plasma pistol more due to a very real incentive to give the non-psycannon dudes halberds and one of them a hammer (because 2A base) Oppertunity cost: Purifiers compete with Paladins, Tech-Marines, Vindicares...Purgators compete with PsyDreads and Dreadknights Role: Mid-field fire support, Purifiers bringing the added bonus (as mentioned above) of being able to slaughter whatever tries to tie them up in hand to hand And before you mention it, no Astral Aim is dumb. I'm not entering into the folly of claiming that they can't wound stuff using it (they'll FAQ that if people keep up that argument, but it shouldn't even be an argument). Even so, 4+ cover to the target is stupid and unnecessary (it gets worse if they are Stealth/Shrouded). On top of that, they pay the highest price IN THE ENTIRE CODEX for psycannons. When you stack on top of that their manifest inability to fight except against chaff (they're as bad as Strike Knights or Interceptors), and they still pay more for their nemesis upgrades than Purifiers...what is the point? Purifiers; Flame Knight, NFH, 9 x Purifiers, 4 x Psycannons: 282 ;) Fixed for ya man IMHO, Purifiers are awesome, but I want them moving forward and engaging the enemy, which makes the psycannons expensive when I am only getting 2 shots with them. As such, I always take the free incinerators with my Purifiers... got to love a ST6 template which ignores cover Not really. I'd much rather have the option of backing up and pelting them with psycannon, or holding my ground for even more shots (normal shots as they close, then Overwatch, then 'Cleansing Flame' if they are chaff, 'Hammerhand' if they are Marines). Purifiers in the mid-field are a pain to remove, they're only outclassed by Terminator blob and even then, they get more shots stationary (16 vs the 12 Relentless from the squad gunners+TDA Inquisitor). I'd actually take incinerators on a 5-man unit of Purgators (take a hammer on the Justicar so he's not useless), then put them in a Rhino. Its a modestly priced unit, and if you want burnination they are some of the cheapest mass anti-infantry you can field (Henchmen being the absolute cheapest). Like with Purifiers, they are free, but unlike with Purifiers, you aren't giving up their 2A base and dirt-cheap force weapons (remember, Purgators are as bad as Strikes in combat). I've taken the Trogdor build out for a spin a couple of times. Sometimes they do nothing, other times they obliterate infantry of all stripes and still die. Amusingly, I've done the old 'hide behind a wall and still BBQ them' trick to people. Especially amusing when they're on a higher floor of the ruins, and I elect their level to be set on fire. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256707-purgation-squad-as-anti-flyer/#findComment-3124424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamv6 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Darius, how does Astral Aim and Incinerators work? Astral Aim grants a +4 cover save, Incinerators ignore all cover saves? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256707-purgation-squad-as-anti-flyer/#findComment-3124506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 The only good thing Purgators bring is the 5-man unit with four incinerators and a Justicar hammer, loaded into a Rhino. It's called the Trogdor Build I lol'd. Purgation squads are good for more things than that; their ability to stack that many psycannons into a unit that would otherwise need to be twice as expensive and at probably twice as large at their cost is a bargain. I see Purge squads like (for instance) foot-slogging Assault Cannon Dreadnoughts. If the table is especially crowded with tall, LOS-blocking terrain (like a city scape or a canyon) then a unit like a Purg Squad (or foot-slogging AC Dread) is suddenly not gimped by the fact that everything can see it and easily get to it. In fact, your Purg squad is going to be amazing on that kind of map as it can ignore LOS and just hose whatever is in range with impunity. There are more than a few units like this in each codex...units that are either designed with a specific target in mind or a specific terrain style/board layout. Don't discount ye olde mini-purg. <3 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256707-purgation-squad-as-anti-flyer/#findComment-3124518 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Fixed for ya man TY! :tu: (it gets worse if they are Stealth/Shrouded) I'm going to shoot at you, and give you a 2+ cover save in the open!!! Pure win. :) (although I think AA still says it's an unmodified 4+) Darius, how does Astral Aim and Incinerators work? They still ignore cover. But you can flame through fire points now. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256707-purgation-squad-as-anti-flyer/#findComment-3124599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamv6 Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 (although I think AA still says it's an unmodified 4+) Sure is. Codex wording says "which cannot be modified by any means". Which make me think I messed up playing against the Tau player last week. He was gaining 2+ cover saves, I could have just Astral Aimed the squad and made him go back to 4+ :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256707-purgation-squad-as-anti-flyer/#findComment-3124809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted July 17, 2012 Share Posted July 17, 2012 Hmmm, should prove useful attacking units that have a great cover save, such as the aegis defense line, or night fighting... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256707-purgation-squad-as-anti-flyer/#findComment-3124858 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Darius, how does Astral Aim and Incinerators work? Astral Aim grants a +4 cover save, Incinerators ignore all cover saves? Exactly as it's written. They get the cover save, then the 'Ignore Cover' rule for the incinerators kicks in and takes it away. Ah, beautiful :no: Purgation squads are good for more things than that; their ability to stack that many psycannons into a unit that would otherwise need to be twice as expensive and at probably twice as large at their cost is a bargain. But thats the thing. You need ablative bodies to soak up damage, especially the attention a quad psycannon unit is going to cop (they generate insane damage when stationary). Otherwise, removing 5 annoying Marines isn't much a challenge (that's why combat squads never caught on, because they're too easily eliminated). 10 in one squad is far more daunting. I'm going to shoot at you, and give you a 2+ cover save in the open!!! Pure win. (although I think AA still says it's an unmodified 4+) Yeah you are right, it says 'cannot be modified in any way'. Whew, that was a close one! Which make me think I messed up playing against the Tau player last week. He was gaining 2+ cover saves, I could have just Astral Aimed the squad and made him go back to 4+ No, because a unit always uses its best save. If he had a 2+ cover save from area terrain+GTG (or whatever it was), it's still a valid cover save against 'Astral Aim' shots. The 4+ 'Astral Aim' grants is only used if he didn't already have a better save (armour/cover/invul, it doesn't matter which). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256707-purgation-squad-as-anti-flyer/#findComment-3125044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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