auto-lose?

[Flanny]

Hey guys, what's up? I was told that if at any time you have no units on the table, but some in reserve, you still automatically lose the game? Then someone told me this was false. Can anyone here clarify? Thanks!

[pingo]

Not at any time, only if you have no models on the table at the end of a game turn. Reserved models are not on the table.

 

So if your opponent goes first and wipes out your units on the board 1st turn, you lose.

 

Do fortifications count, I wonder ...

[Cmdr Shepard]

Not at any time, only if you have no models on the table at the end of a game turn. Reserved models are not on the table.

 

So if your opponent goes first and wipes out your units on the board 1st turn, you lose.

 

Do fortifications count, I wonder ...

 

At the end of a game turn after the first.

[Flanny]

So if i have scouts on the board turn 1, my opponent goes first and wipes them out. My turn 1 two drop pods come down from drop pod assault. I don't lose, correct?

[JamesI]

So if i have scouts on the board turn 1, my opponent goes first and wipes them out. My turn 1 two drop pods come down from drop pod assault. I don't lose, correct?

correct because at the end of the game turn you have models on the table.

[Disruptor_fe404]

Do fortifications count, I wonder ...

 

Fortifications are terrain, not units. As such, they would not count.

[Flanny]

Many thanks to all of you! ;)

[Seahawk]

At the end of a game turn after the first.

Incorrect.

 

"Likewise, if at the end of any game turn, one player has no models on the battlefield, his opponent automatically wins." (BRB, p.122)

 

ANY turn, not just after the first.

[Aidoneus]

At the end of a game turn after the first.

Incorrect.

 

"Likewise, if at the end of any game turn, one player has no models on the battlefield, his opponent automatically wins." (BRB, p.122)

 

ANY turn, not just after the first.

So, if you had an all-drop pod army, got the first turn, put everything in reserve, and then had the initiative stolen... you lose?

 

... really? :D

[bystrom]

At the end of a game turn after the first.

Incorrect.

 

"Likewise, if at the end of any game turn, one player has no models on the battlefield, his opponent automatically wins." (BRB, p.122)

 

ANY turn, not just after the first.

So, if you had an all-drop pod army, got the first turn, put everything in reserve, and then had the initiative stolen... you lose?

 

... really? :D

 

No, since it's game turn. I.e. put everything in reserve, they steal the initiative, they move around, then it's your first turn, you drop, then at the end of your turn you check and see if any army doesn't have any models.

[Seahawk]

Of course not. GAME TURN, as clearly indicated by the rules :D. Half of your drop pods arrive on the first turn, and that goes for all marine armies and Tyranid armies, as those are the only races that can do that. Daemons also have half their units come in on the first turn.

 

This is also why you can only place up to half of your units in reserves. The only armies capable of having 100% non-deployment are pod and daemon armies. Everything else has the 1/2 units restriction.

 

Now, if all of your units that showed up on the first turn died...then yes, you did just lose. Should have planned better :).

[thade]

...as clearly indicated by the rules :D.

So rare an event that we should all be deeply ashamed that we missed it. <3

[Spacefrisian]

Page 9 tells you more about turns.

[Aidoneus]

Phew. Okay, thanks for clearing that up. One minor thing though...

Half of your drop pods arrive on the first turn, and that goes for all marine armies and Tyranid armies, as those are the only races that can do that. Daemons also have half their units come in on the first turn.

I'm pretty sure Tyranids don't have anything that comes out of reserves on turn 1. Their Mycetic Spores don't uses the Drop Pod Assault rules; they just deep-strike normally (although they do have the rule where they reduce distance to avoid landing on other models or impassable terrain).

 

So I guess the list of all-reserves armies is now down to:

Space Marines in Drop Pods

Deathwing

Daemons

 

Sadly, my Grey Knights were given teleporters instead of Drop Pods, to represent that they are the masters of lightning deployment, and to allow them to more easily make fully-reserved armies. Unfortunately, the rules change completely eliminates my ability to play that way.

[Seahawk]

Ooo, fair enough. For some reason I thought Tyranid pods worked exactly the same as drop pods in all respects.

 

I suppose welcome to the world of a new edition. You're not the first (and certainly won't be the last!) that suddenly has to change their army to work within the new rules.

[Ammonius]

Do fortifications count, I wonder ...

 

Fortifications are terrain, not units. As such, they would not count.

The rule says "...one player has no models on the battlefield..." (Page 122, emphasis mine)

 

This may mean that fortifications count. After all, they are on your FOC, and you paid points for them. What worries me is that if they do count, all one has to to is buy an aegis defense line, because I can't find a way to destroy the wall sections.

[dswanick]

Do fortifications count, I wonder ...

 

Fortifications are terrain, not units. As such, they would not count.

The rule says "...one player has no models on the battlefield..." (Page 122, emphasis mine)

 

This may mean that fortifications count. After all, they are on your FOC, and you paid points for them. What worries me is that if they do count, all one has to to is buy an aegis defense line, because I can't find a way to destroy the wall sections.

Well ain't that cool ... Space Wolves players can never auto-lose, so long as they buy a 10pt Chooser of the Slain for their Rune Priest.

[thade]

Ready for this bit of awkward rules-lawyering? Counters are ill-defined but often explained to have no impact on the game at all, save for what is in their rules entry. They can't charge or be charged, shoot or be shot at, or block LOS, typically.

 

Do counters count-as models?

 

/headasplode

 

ADDENDUM: Of course, I jest. I think it seems reasonable that I am subject to auto-losing, even if it's my painted forest on the table that I personally own. When it says "models" it means "standard fare in your army". While it's not to-the-letter clear, we do the best we can.

[Seahawk]

They may not count as a unit, but a model is a model. Terrain pieces are models. Fortifications/Seekers are models. Dead models left on the table are models...:D

[Captain Juan Juarez]

When it says "models" it means "standard fare in your army".

 

The trouble is, for a lot of troublesome people, they will suggest that your argument is invalid because it's your interpretation.

 

Yes, we all know that's what was probably meant when it was conjured up, as well as what any right-thinking gamer would consider to be it's applicattion.. But people are people.

[thade]

When it says "models" it means "standard fare in your army".

The trouble is, for a lot of troublesome people, they will suggest that your argument is invalid because it's your interpretation.

I think I've found your problem. <3 They are violating the Spirit of the Game rule. ;) MY INTERPRETATION.

 

The rules are full of stuff like this. We do our best here and - to our credit - there are some really shrewd peeps on this board when it comes to sorting these rules out. Things like this shouldn't impede game-play or fun. When a player tries to include their Indestructible Model in the discussion for the purposes of breaking a rule (like this auto-lose situation) that should be a red flag. The rule obviously exists to prevent all-flyer armies from crushing all ground armies; it's a balance mechanic. Why should an empty bastion allow you to circumvent that rule?

 

EDIT: Clarification.

[Gentlemanloser]

Unoccupied Bastions can't be targetted, right?

[rpnightsend]

Ooo, fair enough. For some reason I thought Tyranid pods worked exactly the same as drop pods in all respects.

 

I suppose welcome to the world of a new edition. You're not the first (and certainly won't be the last!) that suddenly has to change their army to work within the new rules.

*three tervigons, carnifexes, or the doom of malan'tai dropping into your deployment zone first turn*

RUN FOR YOUR ******* LIVES!!!

[DV8]

This is also why you can only place up to half of your units in reserves. The only armies capable of having 100% non-deployment are pod and daemon armies. Everything else has the 1/2 units restriction.

 

So I guess the list of all-reserves armies is now down to:

Space Marines in Drop Pods

Deathwing Are they forced to deploy in reserves?

Daemons

 

Necrons with nothing but units in Nightscythes, and Death Scythes for Heavies

Imperial Guard Elysian List (potentially, as Valkyries are dedicated transports)

Imperial Guard with all units mounted in Valkyries/Vendettas

Blood Angels/Grey Knights with all units mounted in Storm Ravens (heavily dependent on list)

 

I'm being pedantic, I know...

 

 

DV8

[Gentlemanloser]

Back to the Bastion anti auto lose.

 

How can you claim the Bastion as a model in *your* army, when the enemy can simply walk into it, if it's empty?

 

Does the Bastion remain as *your* model, if it's got your enemies minis inside it?

 

Fortifications would appear to be entirely neutral models on the board. Much like every other peice of terrain placed. ;)