Morticon Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Necrons with nothing but units in Nightscythes, and Death Scythes for HeaviesImperial Guard Elysian List (potentially, as Valkyries are dedicated transports) Imperial Guard with all units mounted in Valkyries/Vendettas Blood Angels/Grey Knights with all units mounted in Storm Ravens (heavily dependent on list) I'm being pedantic, I know... DV8 Crons only potentially. Elysian I dont know about. IG with Valks - no - valks are Fast, not dedicated meaning half of whats left aside from the valks. Same with BA/GK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256709-auto-lose/page/2/#findComment-3126667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Necrons with nothing but units in Nightscythes, and Death Scythes for HeaviesImperial Guard Elysian List (potentially, as Valkyries are dedicated transports) Imperial Guard with all units mounted in Valkyries/Vendettas Blood Angels/Grey Knights with all units mounted in Storm Ravens (heavily dependent on list) I'm being pedantic, I know... DV8 Crons only potentially. Elysian I dont know about. IG with Valks - no - valks are Fast, not dedicated meaning half of whats left aside from the valks. Same with BA/GK I understand, but leaving a unit in a transport that is a Flyer, would that not then remove them from the "1/2 Reserves list", with the same principle being applied to Necrons? So what you do with Imperial Guard is ensure you have no more than 9 squads of infantry no bigger than 12 strong, and take 3 squadrons of either Valkyries or Vendettas to eat up your Fast Attack. Deploy your infantry inside the Flyers, and off you go. Or am I missing a rule that says that squads deployed in their dedicated Transports cease to apply for 1/2 reserves? DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256709-auto-lose/page/2/#findComment-3126681 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ammonius Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 The rule obviously exists to prevent all-flyer armies from crushing all ground armies; it's a balance mechanic. Why should an empty bastion allow you to circumvent that rule? I agree in principle, which is why I'm trying to find the definitive answer. Unfortunately, I'm only finding that you have to contend with any fortifications that your opponent has purchased in order to activate the auto-lose rule. Unoccupied Bastions can't be targetted, right? According to the bottom right of page 93, you can. Back to the Bastion anti auto lose. How can you claim the Bastion as a model in *your* army, when the enemy can simply walk into it, if it's empty? Does the Bastion remain as *your* model, if it's got your enemies minis inside it? Fortifications would appear to be entirely neutral models on the board. Much like every other peice of terrain placed. ;) Page 96: "In the choosing your army section (page 108), you'll see that you can add some buildings to your army, allowing your troops to deploy and fight from a strong position." Page 114: "You can take a single fortification for each primary detachment in your force" The rest of the page talks about "your" fortifications. To be clear, these are the fortifications you have to spend points to buy, not items in the terrain pool. What really spooks me is that I can't find a way that we can destroy the wall sections of an Aegis defense line, which is cheaper than a bastion, and would still prevent them from auto-losing if I clear their forces from the table. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256709-auto-lose/page/2/#findComment-3126686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I understand, but leaving a unit in a transport that is a Flyer, would that not then remove them from the "1/2 Reserves list", with the same principle being applied to Necrons? So what you do with Imperial Guard is ensure you have no more than 9 squads of infantry no bigger than 12 strong, and take 3 squadrons of either Valkyries or Vendettas to eat up your Fast Attack. Deploy your infantry inside the Flyers, and off you go. Or am I missing a rule that says that squads deployed in their dedicated Transports cease to apply for 1/2 reserves? DV8 Thats the one!! Its pg125. Its why drop pods dont count. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256709-auto-lose/page/2/#findComment-3126797 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Page 114: "You can take a single fortification for each primary detachment in your force"The rest of the page talks about "your" fortifications. To be clear, these are the fortifications you have to spend points to buy, not items in the terrain pool. And if a bastion you have purchased is empty, the enemy can enter it. Enemy units can't come within 1" of your 'army' unless Assaulting them. Yey they can embark upon a Bastion purchased by you. Doesn't that make the Bastion a neutral unit? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256709-auto-lose/page/2/#findComment-3126972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 This is also why you can only place up to half of your units in reserves. The only armies capable of having 100% non-deployment are pod and daemon armies. Everything else has the 1/2 units restriction. So I guess the list of all-reserves armies is now down to:Space Marines in Drop Pods Deathwing Are they forced to deploy in reserves? Daemons Necrons with nothing but units in Nightscythes, and Death Scythes for Heavies Imperial Guard Elysian List (potentially, as Valkyries are dedicated transports) Imperial Guard with all units mounted in Valkyries/Vendettas Blood Angels/Grey Knights with all units mounted in Storm Ravens (heavily dependent on list) I'm being pedantic, I know... DV8 Why wouldn't these 4 auto lose if you did all reserved them? Bastions/choosers aside not sure about Elysians rules at all Surely the point of deathwing /drop pods is they come from reserve in the first turn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256709-auto-lose/page/2/#findComment-3127495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ammonius Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Page 114: "You can take a single fortification for each primary detachment in your force"The rest of the page talks about "your" fortifications. To be clear, these are the fortifications you have to spend points to buy, not items in the terrain pool. And if a bastion you have purchased is empty, the enemy can enter it. Enemy units can't come within 1" of your 'army' unless Assaulting them. Yey they can embark upon a Bastion purchased by you. Doesn't that make the Bastion a neutral unit? Your point is well taken, but the book calls a fortification that you purchase as part of your army "Yours" in several places, and calls it "Neutral" in 0 places. In fact neutral fortifications are talked about in the "Fortifications and Dilapidation" section on page 96. The preponderance of evidence suggests that the fortification you purchase for your army is "your" model. I think we've defined the problem well enough. Now what remains is for GW to cover this in the FAQ. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256709-auto-lose/page/2/#findComment-3127499 Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostAlone Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 From page 2 of the BRB: "The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as 'models' in the rules that follow... To reflect all their differences, each model has its own characteristics profile." This means that for something to be a 'model' (as opposed to anything else) it must have a line of stats as we normally understand them. So do fortifications have that ? The answer is no. All the fortifications list the type of 'terrain' they are (so they ARE terrain) and what special rules they have. That is all. A bastion is a medium building with AV14 and some mounted weapons. Nothing there makes it a 'model'. In fact since the rules are there in the terrain section, you could quite legitimately place a bastion as random terrain (including the weapons) rather than as a fortification and either way it would have the same result in terms of auto-losing for not having people on the table. The only relevant difference that it being purchased with points is that you get some control over where and how it is placed. Essentially, terrain and models are not (and can not) be the same thing. Since all the fortifications are terrains of various sorts, they are not models, and thus if something asks 'Are there any models on the battlefield' then it won't care about them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256709-auto-lose/page/2/#findComment-3129374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Actually, fortifications count, specifically Gun Emplacements. They do have a full stat-line, so as long as you purchased one with your fortifications and it's still on the table, you don't auto-lose. Easy! :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256709-auto-lose/page/2/#findComment-3129385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingo Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 To reflect all their differences, each model has its own characteristics profile." [ ... ] A bastion is a medium building with AV14 and some mounted weapons. What is AV14 if not a characteristic? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256709-auto-lose/page/2/#findComment-3129461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
vahouth Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Necrons with nothing but units in Nightscythes, and Death Scythes for HeaviesImperial Guard Elysian List (potentially, as Valkyries are dedicated transports) Imperial Guard with all units mounted in Valkyries/Vendettas Blood Angels/Grey Knights with all units mounted in Storm Ravens (heavily dependent on list) I'm being pedantic, I know... DV8 Crons only potentially. Elysian I dont know about. IG with Valks - no - valks are Fast, not dedicated meaning half of whats left aside from the valks. Same with BA/GK Morticon, don't forget that we also have Deep Striking Land Raiders. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256709-auto-lose/page/2/#findComment-3129523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 Yup yup ;) But, they dont count because they dont "have" to be kept in reserve Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256709-auto-lose/page/2/#findComment-3129841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 If an Imperial Guard platoon has one squad in a flyer at deployment, the entire platoon is forced into reserve by the Fliers rule, and therefore doesn't count against the 50% reserves rule. As far as Fortifications and the Aegis are concerned - Bastions, Aegis Guns and the Fortress of Redemption all count, as they are models with stat lines. However, the wall segments of the Aegis do not count, as they do not have stat lines! However, I would argue that once you 'capture' a Bastion (IE move a unit inside an enemy Bastion), it no longer counts as a model in their army, but instead is one in yours as you have control over it. I think that this is a neat, clean interpretation that allows for some leeway in tactics and makes the game more interesting by adding a 'capture and control' element above and beyond that represented by Objectives. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256709-auto-lose/page/2/#findComment-3130508 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 If an Imperial Guard platoon has one squad in a flyer at deployment, the entire platoon is forced into reserve by the Fliers rule, and therefore doesn't count against the 50% reserves rule. Why its not their dedicated transport and they have the option of not having any squad in the flyer so don't have to be in reserve Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256709-auto-lose/page/2/#findComment-3131065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 From Codex: Imperial Guard; Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops Choice on the Force Organisation chart when deploying, and is rolled for consecutively when rolling for reserves. Basically, the whole Platoon has to be in reserve or none of it - so if one squad is forced into reserve, so are the others, and by the Reserves rules any unit that is forced into reserves rather than choosing to be kept in reserve doesn't count against the 50% limit. This rule is what prevented Guard players from deploying Infantry Platoons in the old Dawn of War scenario - an Infantry Platoon consists of at least 3 units, making it illegal to deploy under that scenario. If you choose to place one squad in the non-dedicated Valkyrie during deployment, that squad must be in reserve because the Valkyrie is in reserve, therefore the rest of the platoon is also forced into Reserve. The thing is, for Imperial Guard armies that's not a good thing - you end up with your infantry platoon strolling onto the board in turn 2. For Elysians, who have a universal Deep Strike special rule and a plethora of range 6"-12" superweapons, however... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256709-auto-lose/page/2/#findComment-3131334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Erm...that's not at all what that means. It was even FAQ'd to allow IG to deploy an entire platoon as a single "unit" choice for Dawn of War. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256709-auto-lose/page/2/#findComment-3131397 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 They changed the platoon rule in the In addition when making a roll for reserve or outflanking roll once for the whole platoon. Any units in reserve that are embarked upon non-dedicated transports are instead to roll separately But your understanding of the reserve is flawed You have to be able to put the platoon in reserve to put them in the valkryrie the 50% rule would stop you as you have the option of not putting it in the reserve/valkyrie. If the valkyrie was a dedicated transport(which it is not) the squad and valkyrie would could as same item for reserves for 50% rule and would get around the 50% rule as the valkyrie has to start in reserve. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256709-auto-lose/page/2/#findComment-3131483 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Basically, the whole Platoon has to be in reserve or none of it While this part is true... - so if one squad is forced into reserve, so are the others, and by the Reserves rules any unit that is forced into reserves rather than choosing to be kept in reserve doesn't count against the 50% limit. This part is flawed. Choosing to put on squad in a Valk does not "force" it to be in reserve. Consequently this one squad being in reserve doesn't "force" the platoon to be kept in reserve. You still have a choice to not place the squad in a Valk, so you have a choice to not have the platoon in reserve. So, no, the 50% limit applies to Infantry Platoons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256709-auto-lose/page/2/#findComment-3131620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Bah. C:IG can go hang then. I only place Elysians, so I assumed that it would work with non-dedicated ones that way (In an Elysian list, the valkyries are dedicated transports). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256709-auto-lose/page/2/#findComment-3131931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.