Cult Troops in different Legions

[Lord_Caerolion]

This just reminds me of the thing I hated most about 3.5. It was impossible to have a Tzeentch list that wasn't Thousand Sons, because the MoT automatically made basic CSM into Rubrics.

 

I'm very much a fan of the "generic units" instead of Cults idea, although I'd probably do it the other way around to be honest, and just call the units Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines and Rubrics, while making a reference in their entries that the other Gods can create near-identical units, that for all intents and purposes count as Berzerkers, but are actually gifted by Slaanesh, or whatever, just to keep the rabid fluff-monkeys happy.

[totgeboren]

This just reminds me of the thing I hated most about 3.5. It was impossible to have a Tzeentch list that wasn't Thousand Sons, because the MoT automatically made basic CSM into Rubrics.

 

I'm very much a fan of the "generic units" instead of Cults idea, although I'd probably do it the other way around to be honest, and just call the units Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines and Rubrics, while making a reference in their entries that the other Gods can create near-identical units, that for all intents and purposes count as Berzerkers, but are actually gifted by Slaanesh, or whatever, just to keep the rabid fluff-monkeys happy.

 

Yeah, that's probably a better idea. Easier to market too.

I have been toying around with the idea of a Slaanesh warband (called 'The Brotherhood of Joy'), which would consist of lesser brotherhoods, like 'The Brotherhood of the Feast', fat and bloated marines with gimp-like outfits, and pieces of meat and grisly trophies attached to them. Count-as Plague Marines. Then I wanted to have a 'Brotherhood of Triumph', gladiator-style CSM with asymmetrical armour and lots of studs. The 'Brotherhood of Celebration' would be Noise Marines, and the 'normal' CSM would just be 'Joyous Brothers', those who celebrate everything. And so on.

 

I was also toying around with some bloated tentacled tzeentchian horror marines, with eyes and slavering maws forming and reforming on their armour. They would be really chaotic, and count-as Plague Marines, but my Tzeentchian ideas kinda stopped there as I got to thinking about all the cool Slaanesh stuff I could do.

 

I hope the next codex encourages these kinda of ideas. Having yet another codex where every Khorne warband consists of... well... just Berzerkers (all numbering eight too!) makes me yawn.

[Feste]

I'd probably choose a generic name rather than 'Rubric' simply because it's too reminiscent of Thousand Sons. But really there's no reason why the Rubric had to be cast only once.

 

At the moment my plans for cult troops are a little up in the air, but as I'm planning a Word Bearer Heavy Company with lots of Daemon Engines I suspect that I'll need some good heavy infantry and assault troops.

 

Tie-ing it back into the thread topic, if rumours of a Dark Techmarine are true (or to be honest, even if they're not), I'll likely use one of them. No reason that a Apostle has to lead every WB force, or that only Iron Warriors can be techie.

[Phoros]

I still like "Automata" for the Rubrics. And to be honest I think that the whole Noise Marine concept doesn't work too well, and that they need to be replaced with a different "Slaanesh unit".

[Feste]

Automata, I like that. It can go so many places, steampunk cogs, golemancy and your classic Rubric.

 

For the Slaaneshi dudes how about 'Slaaneshi Hedonists'? No sensation left behind.

[space wolf]

This maybe slightly off topic, but what was so great about the 3.5Dex anyway? It never came close to the characterful armies you could do with the 2nd ed codex. If you ask me that was the tome to worship....

[Vesper]

This maybe slightly off topic, but what was so great about the 3.5Dex anyway? It never came close to the characterful armies you could do with the 2nd ed codex. If you ask me that was the tome to worship....

 

It was actually easier to use. while still having the Chaos flavour. 2nd ed Chaos codex, while being pretty awesome (Daemon worlds lists and such) always felt a bit messy to me. But hey, I can understand the fact that you're fond of it. I started playing with 3rd ed, so my reference is 3.5. ;)

[darth_giles]

This just reminds me of the thing I hated most about 3.5. It was impossible to have a Tzeentch list that wasn't Thousand Sons, because the MoT automatically made basic CSM into Rubrics.

Well, if you wanted to go "impure," you could just have unmarked CSMs who hadn't quite gotten their Rubric certification. As long as you weren't taking the Thousand Sons legion benefit you'd have been fine. Hell, you could actually play a Tzeentch army with 'Zerkers and Noise Marines and be fine. You were just strictly prohibited from taking Nurgle units, for obvious reasons, and had to stay within the system of Marks. So no 'Zerker champions with the Mark of Tzeentch or similar nonesuch.

 

Aparrently someone actually gave Khorne Berzerker champions the Mark of Slaanesh during 3.0, and it had to get FAQed in the first Chapter Approved compilation of that era.

 

I'm very much a fan of the "generic units" instead of Cults idea, although I'd probably do it the other way around to be honest, and just call the units Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines and Rubrics, while making a reference in their entries that the other Gods can create near-identical units, that for all intents and purposes count as Berzerkers, but are actually gifted by Slaanesh, or whatever, just to keep the rabid fluff-monkeys happy.

The thing is, 'Zerkers and Slaanesh Melee Marines are going to have vastly different fighting styles, as do Thousand Sons and Plague Marines. While the 'Zerker is swinging his chainaxe wildly trying to bring it into contact with anyone at all's flesh, the SMM is going to be making fast precision slices and thrusts to cripple his opponent. They're so different there's no way they could be mechanically identical. The fluff is so ingrained to the rules that you can't easily separate the two out. Try saying "Khornate Sonic Marines" a few times and figure out how much sense it makes.

 

And then there's the fact that badly- done generic units are *so* much worse than badly- done specific units. Its one thing to say that a unit doesn't capture the flavor of a particular chaos god- bolter 'Zerkers for example- but trying to claim Tzeentch Plague Marines is just too impossible. Having "Resilient Chaos Marines" or "Sonic Weapon Chaos Marines" is even less flavorful than "Sternguard Veteran Squad" or "Deathwatch Kill Team."

[TheDarkApostle]

And then there's the fact that badly- done generic units are *so* much worse than badly- done specific units. Its one thing to say that a unit doesn't capture the flavor of a particular chaos god- bolter 'Zerkers for example- but trying to claim Tzeentch Plague Marines is just too impossible. Having "Resilient Chaos Marines" or "Sonic Weapon Chaos Marines" is even less flavorful than "Sternguard Veteran Squad" or "Deathwatch Kill Team."

Especially if the actual rule mechanics are near identical to previous incarnations, and it's painfully obvious what everything is supposed to be when opening a previous Codex. Or even without opening a previous Codex for the majority of us that will have played for more than one edition.

 

TDA

[Hellios]

This just reminds me of the thing I hated most about 3.5. It was impossible to have a Tzeentch list that wasn't Thousand Sons, because the MoT automatically made basic CSM into Rubrics.

 

I'm very much a fan of the "generic units" instead of Cults idea, although I'd probably do it the other way around to be honest, and just call the units Berzerkers, Plague Marines, Noise Marines and Rubrics, while making a reference in their entries that the other Gods can create near-identical units, that for all intents and purposes count as Berzerkers, but are actually gifted by Slaanesh, or whatever, just to keep the rabid fluff-monkeys happy.

 

 

Except it doesn't keep the rabid fluff-monkeys happy. Making everything generic just cheapens the background and to be honest as a game... The background is the main thing 40k has going for it. With the generic arguement you as as well just have the rulebook (No codices) with a list of units and options and then a note that this unit with meltas can be used to represent IG melta vets, SM Sternguard or Eldar fire dragons. The restrictions as much as the options are what gives an army character.

 

However I do see why the rubric thing was annoying (Although I'm now annoyed that I can't make everything into a rubric... and hey you could have taken sorcerer chosen XD.) Why not just take generic marines and say they worship tzeentch.

 

 

Oh and at whoever it was... there is a reason that the rubric can't be cast by joe average... It is a very powerful and difficult spell that require a lot of time and preparation and a good number of some of strongest sorcerers in 1ksons legion to cast it.... Oh and they had access to the book of Magnus which may have helped. Most chaos psykers won't have the resources, knowledge or power to pull this kind of thing off and most members of a Warband except maybe the sorcerers wouldn't want them to pull it off. Remember the rubric was as much a failure as it was a success.

[Phoros]

And then there's the fact that badly- done generic units are *so* much worse than badly- done specific units. Its one thing to say that a unit doesn't capture the flavor of a particular chaos god- bolter 'Zerkers for example- but trying to claim Tzeentch Plague Marines is just too impossible. Having "Resilient Chaos Marines" or "Sonic Weapon Chaos Marines" is even less flavorful than "Sternguard Veteran Squad" or "Deathwatch Kill Team."

Especially if the actual rule mechanics are near identical to previous incarnations, and it's painfully obvious what everything is supposed to be when opening a previous Codex. Or even without opening a previous Codex for the majority of us that will have played for more than one edition.

 

TDA

I'd have to disagree. It would indicate that whilst yes, the rules are meant to represent these units, they're not restricted to being just them. It wouldn't be four paragraphs of "Berzerkers are totally generic Chaos Space Marines"; it would be three paragraphs about the World Eaters and then something like:

"Whilst the Khorne-devoted Berzerkers driven mad by the Butcher's Nails are the most notorious of their kind, they are far from the only ones. From the devout Zealots of the Word Bearers to the mace-bearing Siegebreakers of the Iron Warriors and combat-addicted Bladesmasters of the Emperor's Children, most warbands are capable of mustering Berzerkers to fight for them."

[Feste]

Phoros, that's exactly what I think, it'd give people a bit more permission to go out and put together their weird Cult Troops. In general the units are actually already fairly generic, Khorne Bezerkers not World Eater Bezerkers is the obvious one. At one extreme you could even have a unit called 'The Blessed' and marking them creates the familiar Cult Troops.

 

I very much disagree with the idea that describing the Cult Troops as single Legion entities is one the defining restrictions of the army. I can see restrictions in how combinations of Cults are allowed, or demons being summoned. But something as basic as these Cult Troops is such a cool thing that I want to see more variations on them than less.

 

Helios, those aren't reasons that the Rubris is a one-shot. Those just describe it's first casting. After that the conditions might have changed, it might have paved the way for easier castings later, or Tzeentch might just have been messing with Ahriman. I know the background, but the background changes and is filled in all the time. Just look at the career Imperial Guard Colonel Leman Russ!

[Phoros]

Also, keep in mind that when the Rubric was first cast, it was being cast on an entire Legion of Space Marines. It would presumably be easier to cast it on just a small warband or a few squads.

[darth_giles]

combat-addicted Bladesmasters of the Emperor's Children, most warbands are capable of mustering Berzerkers to fight for them."

Except for the fact that Slaanesh doesn't give the same bonus as Khorne in CC, thus you could never have Slaanesh 'Zerkers. While there's nothing to stop you from making a close combat squad and giving it Slaaneshi bonuses, you just wouldn't get the exact same stat line and veteran skills. If you want to unlink the rules that far from the fluff, then why not just play counts-as Blood Angels?

[Feste]

Except for the fact that Slaanesh doesn't give the same bonus as Khorne in CC

 

We know that Slaaneshi marines use combat drugs, why wouldn't some of these increase attack rate? For that matter why should a monstrously obese marine given over to gluttony not have +1 Toughness. This isn't delinking background and rules, but adding more depth to the rules.

[Feste]

Getting back to the original topic.

 

Rubrics 1: Marines for whom the time dilation of the Warp has swung the other way and well, well over 10k years have passed. Reduced to dust and memories and hate, they carry on fighting.

Rubrics 2: Boarding shields and exoskeletal reinforcement to carry said boarding shield.

 

Bezerkers 1: Read Storm of Iron by Graham McNeil and this quote from A-D-B. Every World Eater might be a Bezerker but not every Bezerker a World Eater.

Bezerkers 2: Pre-possessed/Failed possessed. It hurtsssss usss....

 

Plague marines 1: Unhallowed, corrupt Apothercaries (surely they didn't all follow Fabulous Bill off into the Warp?).

Plague marines 2: Alternate strain obliterator virus, reshapes body on the fly in a manner reminiscent of nano-tech/swarming insects. Probably not pleasant.

 

Noise marines 1: Experimental noise weaponry/graviton guns + combat drugs = Crazy people.

Noise marines 2: Terror weapons and speed for Night Lord Terror squad.

[darth_giles]

Plague marines 1: Unhallowed, corrupt Apothercaries (surely they didn't all follow Fabulous Bill off into the Warp?).

Plague marines 2: Alternate strain obliterator virus, reshapes body on the fly in a manner reminiscent of nano-tech/swarming insects. Probably not pleasant.

This is a sticky one, because one of the codices (4th edition?) flat-out says that Bile is the legions' only source of new Chaos Space Marines, and as a result none of the legions dare take action against him.

[Hellios]

Phoros, that's exactly what I think, it'd give people a bit more permission to go out and put together their weird Cult Troops. In general the units are actually already fairly generic, Khorne Bezerkers not World Eater Bezerkers is the obvious one. At one extreme you could even have a unit called 'The Blessed' and marking them creates the familiar Cult Troops.

 

I very much disagree with the idea that describing the Cult Troops as single Legion entities is one the defining restrictions of the army. I can see restrictions in how combinations of Cults are allowed, or demons being summoned. But something as basic as these Cult Troops is such a cool thing that I want to see more variations on them than less.

 

Helios, those aren't reasons that the Rubris is a one-shot. Those just describe it's first casting. After that the conditions might have changed, it might have paved the way for easier castings later, or Tzeentch might just have been messing with Ahriman. I know the background, but the background changes and is filled in all the time. Just look at the career Imperial Guard Colonel Leman Russ!

 

 

Yer you CAN change the fluff... maybe the Chaos marines will rejoin the imperium with no hard feelings... While in the game you can allow people to take whatever they want once you start saying their is no real difference between various armies you just make the background dull.

 

People already have permission to make up their own counts as units... GW doesn't need to cheapen the armies to do that.

[Phoros]

"cheapen the armies"

But... How would explicitly giving the suggestion of Counts-As in the book cheapen the armies? It wouldn't take anything away from them at all.

[TheDarkApostle]

Plague marines 1: Unhallowed, corrupt Apothercaries (surely they didn't all follow Fabulous Bill off into the Warp?).

Plague marines 2: Alternate strain obliterator virus, reshapes body on the fly in a manner reminiscent of nano-tech/swarming insects. Probably not pleasant.

This is a sticky one, because one of the codices (4th edition?) flat-out says that Bile is the legions' only source of new Chaos Space Marines, and as a result none of the legions dare take action against him.

Not in either of the 3rd, 3.5 or 4th edition books.

 

But I do recall reading that somewhere as well. Might have been the Heroes and Villains of the 41st millennium coverage on Bile?

 

TDA

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Closest mention I found was in CSM 3.5, at the bottom of his fluff where it said he'd forged alliances with all the Legions, providing "expertise" in making new Marines in exchange for protection. Not quite the same as being the singular font of new troopers.

[TheDarkApostle]

The Heroes and Villains article on Bile however hints towards Bile being the only one capable of making new Marines.

 

It also reveals Bile as the creator of the "womb-daemons" the Iron Warriors were shown to use in Dead Sky Black Sun.

 

TDA

[Feste]

Regarding the Apothecaries, I was mainly just pointing out that while Bile is the only Apothecary in the rulebook he's not the only Apothecary left in the legions. FNP is something that Apothecaries tend to give out, so it's not a huge leap to seeing an Apothecary in a squad of marines approximating Plague marine levels of toughness.

 

 

Hellios: Just to be clear, when I refer to Colonel Leman Russ, I'm referring to (as far as I'm aware) the first named mention of a character of that name who was a Guard Colonel. The point was that the background of 40k is fluid and GW changes it all the time.

 

Furthermore none of what we're describing contradicts established background, and most of it hinges on specific differences between the Traitor Legions and Loyalists. The Iron Warriors having Siege Breaker units doesn't detract any from the Rubric Marines, they're still they're own unique thing but it expands teh background of some of the other legions. And it allows Thousand Sons to be something more than just 1 Hit Wonders.

 

I guess that we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

[techsoldaten]

Phoros, that's exactly what I think, it'd give people a bit more permission to go out and put together their weird Cult Troops. In general the units are actually already fairly generic, Khorne Bezerkers not World Eater Bezerkers is the obvious one. At one extreme you could even have a unit called 'The Blessed' and marking them creates the familiar Cult Troops.

 

I very much disagree with the idea that describing the Cult Troops as single Legion entities is one the defining restrictions of the army. I can see restrictions in how combinations of Cults are allowed, or demons being summoned. But something as basic as these Cult Troops is such a cool thing that I want to see more variations on them than less.

 

Helios, those aren't reasons that the Rubris is a one-shot. Those just describe it's first casting. After that the conditions might have changed, it might have paved the way for easier castings later, or Tzeentch might just have been messing with Ahriman. I know the background, but the background changes and is filled in all the time. Just look at the career Imperial Guard Colonel Leman Russ!

On this point, this post has given me a lot of inspiration around theming an army:

 

http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/viewtop...=43&t=14136

[techsoldaten]

Phoros, that's exactly what I think, it'd give people a bit more permission to go out and put together their weird Cult Troops. In general the units are actually already fairly generic, Khorne Bezerkers not World Eater Bezerkers is the obvious one. At one extreme you could even have a unit called 'The Blessed' and marking them creates the familiar Cult Troops.

 

I very much disagree with the idea that describing the Cult Troops as single Legion entities is one the defining restrictions of the army. I can see restrictions in how combinations of Cults are allowed, or demons being summoned. But something as basic as these Cult Troops is such a cool thing that I want to see more variations on them than less.

 

Helios, those aren't reasons that the Rubris is a one-shot. Those just describe it's first casting. After that the conditions might have changed, it might have paved the way for easier castings later, or Tzeentch might just have been messing with Ahriman. I know the background, but the background changes and is filled in all the time. Just look at the career Imperial Guard Colonel Leman Russ!

On this point, this post has given me a lot of inspiration around theming an army:

 

http://www.miniwargaming.com/forum/viewtop...=43&t=14136