Cult Troops in different Legions

[Feste]

Hi brethren, I hope that this isn't too close to threadomancy (and this is the Chaos board so surely speaking to the dead is normal), but I thought that this would be a good place to discuss this rumoured list and more specifically how you plan on using this combination to make the units that you've always wanted.

 

• +1 I
  
• +1 T
  
• +1 Invul Save
  
• Rage
  
• Fearless
  
• FnP
  
• Soul Blaze
  
• Furious Charge
  
• Fear
  

Just to clarify this is the rumoured list of effects that Marks and Icons will have in the new Codex (whenever it arrives). While the rumours where that it's 4 marks + 5 icons, I notice that we currently have 5 Marks, so I've reordered it into what seems a reasonable combination; the first 4 are likely Marks, then comes Fearless which could easily be a Mark of Chaos Glory. There's also no guarantee that you could have any combination of Marks and Icons, but for now I see no reason not assume that you can combine them as you want.

 

To start things off, I'm very tempted by Raging Fearless Terminators whose religious fervour leads them to charge despite casualties. I'm planning on a Word Bearer Heavy Company and these guys seem designed to clear any breaches in fortress walls.

 

Alternatively Raptors with +1 Initiative causing Fear seem like a good way to kill non-MEQs. Weird twisted bat-like things hiding in the dark and preying on the defenders at will.

 

So. Bearing in mind this is crazy early rumours, does this list prompt any creative juices?

[*Furyou Miko]

Rage + Soul Blaze sounds like it has some potential for fiery berserkers.

 

+1 T Fear could be a horrifying mutation or terrifying disease...

[Feste]

Fiery Bezerkers? That's so cool! I really like it, are just their axes on fire or all of them?

 

In the rumour thread, I mentioned this. What would Soul Blaze and +1 Initiative look like? Slaaneshi who excite the pleasure centers of their victims? Tzeentcheans who are just slightly prescient?

 

How about Furious Charge and +1 Toughness, marines who are literally full of the Warp. Bloated and swollen with it. Almost Ogryn-sized and in pain and thus angry.

[Sception]

Are we sure it's mix & match, or will icons be tied to particular marks, and restricted to units with those marks? After all, +1 T & FNP are already associated with nurgle, +1inv and soulblaze already associated with Tzeentch (according to rumors, anyway), etc.

 

I wouldn't assume mix and match unless it's been specifically stated.

 

And if the flags are particularly costly, they might not be worth it. Sniping is pretty darn easy these days. Nice to hear at least some options will be applied by marks to the whole unit, though, that's certainly an improvement.

[Feste]

TastyTaste in the original post on Blood Of Kittens mentions:

 

Marks and Icons are both purchasable by most units. That means you have five new Icons and the same four marks, in which units can have a combination of two.

So I would expect some combination to be purchasable, but I've just made a guess on the breakdown.

 

I don't see the problem in having Mark/Icon combos that are associated with a God. It'd be a good way of showing that God's favour. Chosen with Plasma guns and Soulfire? OK, pretty sucky in competitive terms, but pretty cool for Tzeentchian Chosen.

 

I'm not sure sniping is all that easy. I've only played one game, and while I managed to do it an Assault Cannon Terminator I wouldn't want to try it again. In a squad of 10 Marines, it could be pretty hard to snipe a decently hidden Icon Bearer. And I can see background reason for everyone clustering around him.

[Sception]

Maybe it's just the barrage-happy guard player at the local store (who was always barrage happy, he's not shifting his army to be exploitative or anything), but I've seen a lot of sniping already. And we have a gentlemens' & ladies' agreement not to rhino-snipe, but I hardly see that being universal.

 

The banners could be great, but their targetability needs to be incorporated into their cost. If it isn't, then they might just end up overpriced.

 

As I said before, though, even if they do, at least some of these options will be available by mark, so there's that at least.

 

And rumor is default marines are getting cheaper (though other units, like termies, are getting more expensive), which is cool if you're not all about these marks & icons.

[Feste]

Fair-dos, some armies are just great at sniping. Weirdly, Nobs and Warbosses with T/L Shootas are pretty much the best at it that I can think of.

 

Yup, 40pt banners for 5 guys is a about twice as much as it needs to be. And we'll see how much customisation is possible. No guarantee that a unit will get both marks and magic flags.

 

It's a shame that Terminators are going up in price, hopefully they'll be getting something other than a Power Fist to justify this. Power weapon Terminators in the new game are too cool for school.

 

Mostly though, I just thought that as we're talking Cult Troop conversions, then this'd be a nice topic to discuss.

[Bearingtheword]

Maybe it's just the barrage-happy guard player at the local store (who was always barrage happy, he's not shifting his army to be exploitative or anything), but I've seen a lot of sniping already. And we have a gentlemens' & ladies' agreement not to rhino-snipe, but I hardly see that being universal.

 

The banners could be great, but their targetability needs to be incorporated into their cost. If it isn't, then they might just end up overpriced.

 

As I said before, though, even if they do, at least some of these options will be available by mark, so there's that at least.

 

And rumor is default marines are getting cheaper (though other units, like termies, are getting more expensive), which is cool if you're not all about these marks & icons.

 

 

You must explain "rhino-snipe" to me. I understand termie sniping I think, in that we can make our termies all champs and they get the ability to pick the wounded models on any 6's rolled, but guessing I am missing something with the rhinos?

 

Anyhow, there does seem to be some interesting combos there. I'm torn on the Dark Apostle thing though. On one hand it is cool they are including them again. But I still may keep my DA as a sorc especially as we can now purchase the Mastery level 3 thing. It's very tempting.

 

~BtW

[Sception]

Rhino-sniping is a general term for blocking line of sight for one of your weapons such that it can only see the model you want to pick out and thus only that one model can be used as a casualty. It's particularly easy to do with rhino's due to their boxy shape and cheap cost. Conga sniping involves moving your infantry out in a string while the heavy weapon guy stands still, so that the 'closest visible model' to the unit is something other than the 'closest visible model' to the heavy weapon, but the heavy weapon can still shoot since it stood still.

 

Both are annoying, but neither is as easily done as barrage sniping.

[totgeboren]

@Bearingtheword. As you can only kill stuff you can see, you can use a rhino (or two) to block your own LOS to everything except the model you want to kill. Like, take two rhinos and place them in front of your say CSM squad with a lascannon so that your lascannon marine can only see one enemy model, like a dude with a heavy weapon/icon/special weapon. If you score a hit and a wound, the only models that may be removed is the ones visible. And by using your rhinos, only the heavy weapon/icon/special weapon model is visible to your unit.

[Feste]

Good grief, that is the cheesiest, most sneaky awesome tactic I've ever heard. Talk about the law on unintended consequences!

Still, it's not quite precision shots and if you keep your Icon in with the herd it must cut down the incidence somewhat.

[Sception]

Like I said, it's annoying, but at least there are ways to respond to it. No such luck for barrage sniping - if they roll a hit on the scatter dice, that model's basically dead, as every wound the template does to the unit is applied first to the model under the center hole until its dead.

[Feste]

Yeah, and a Basilisk barrage would be nasty. Still not a guaranteed thing, 1/3 chance and all. Not great odds admittedly.

[pingo]

If the codex does end up allowing you to mix and match those abilities, it would be something of a tour de force. It would simultaneously allow:

 

1) awesome and effective in-game combos

2) a way to represent cult/god troops

3) a way to create your own flavour of warrior

 

We'll see what happens, but if the rumour is true ... so awesome ... :P

 

And if icons are like now, i.e. one model's wargear, then yes, they can get sniped out. But so what? It makes a game of it. At least now an opponent has to work for a chance at removing the icon bearer using tactics and positioning rather than just piling wounds on a unit and hoping to get lucky. And the Chaos player can also use positioning and tactics to try and stop it. Sure people will cheese it, but they always will no matter how things work.

[TheDarkApostle]

For Terminators? Make half of them Champions.

 

> Stick the Icon on a Champion.

> "Look out Sir!" save.

> ???

> Profit.

 

TDA

[Feste]

Presumably point 3 '???' is for when you fail the 'Look Out, Sir!'?

 

Maybe that's another point worth discussing, reasons why a God's favour is lost when is Icon Bearer is killed. Although does that even need any discussion?

 

Aside from the things like Khorne being ticked off that you got his sigil bloody, I can see things like a Hand Of Glory which requires a living host at all times to function; Archeotech which requires a ridiculous amount of training to use without turning the planet into a black hole; or even just a Daemonic pet/parasite which has latched onto a single squad member.

[pingo]

Maybe that's another point worth discussing, reasons why a God's favour is lost when is Icon Bearer is killed.

Doesn't necessarily need to be an icon as such. Your 'icon bearer' could be some kind of prophet or preacher, whose words channel a god's favours and blessings. If he is killed, that conduit to power is lost. I can see Word Bearers using something like that - almost like mini Dark Apostles :lol:

 

Maybe an icon is not 'carried' in a particular case. Perhaps a marine's devotion to his icon is so great that not only has his soul become bound to it, perhaps also his very flesh. Who knows where the boundary between legionaire and icon lies, but when he dies, it dies with him. Perhaps some kind of Nugley dude could use that one.

 

I think it's easier to come up with loads of characterful reasons for why icon abilities are lost with the removal of the model than it is to come up with lots of good reasons why another dude in the tactical squad can't pick up the meltagun Brother Unfortunatus drops when he rolls a 1 on his armour save.

[Feste]

Your 'icon bearer' could be some kind of prophet or preacher, whose words channel a god's favours and blessings.

Either you're a genius or I'm an idiot. How did I not think of that one? I'm planning a Word Bearer force. I really like that idea actually, I'd even go one step further and put it on the Champion if possible. Have them led by the zealous and god-touched marines. Although the tensions of twin secular/theocratic power bases could be fun.

 

I think it's easier to come up with loads of characterful reasons for why icon abilities are lost with the removal of the model than it is to come up with lots of good reasons why another dude in the tactical squad can't pick up the meltagun Brother Unfortunatus drops when he rolls a 1 on his armour save.

So. Just to pause for dramatic effect. You're saying that snipe-able Icon Bearers are more fluffy than invulna-icons? I agree, I just want to confirm this for posterity before a horde of CSM players hunts you down like a lackey of the Corpse God. :lol:

 

Edit:

Oh and Brother Unfortunatus can't pick up the meltagun coz it isn't mentioned to do so in the Codex. Unfortunately they've got abide by the RAW, and Guilleman missed that one.

[pingo]

Either you're a genius or I'm an idiot.

Obviously, I'm a genius.

 

I really like that idea actually, I'd even go one step further and put it on the Champion if possible. Have them led by the zealous and god-touched marines. Although the tensions of twin secular/theocratic power bases could be fun.

Do it. It's too cool not to.

 

So. Just to pause for dramatic effect. You're saying that snipe-able Icon Bearers are more fluffy than invulna-icons?

Absolutely. I guess that's why there's a difference between icons and marks. I suppose icons are a shortcut to power, marks are more earned through whatever depravity pleased the god in question. One comes from the squad, the other comes from the god. You can't remove the god in one blow, but you can critically damage a squad.

 

If an icon bearer is channelling power, there's no way Brother Sergeant Snipio Accuratus isn't going to attempt to take him down.

 

At the end of the day, icons aren't much different to any other item of wargear (or upgrade character) that provides squad-wide buffs. They are all fair game, and part of that game is the battle to take them out vs the battle to protect them.

 

Oh and Brother Unfortunatus can't pick up the meltagun coz it isn't mentioned to do so in the Codex. Unfortunately they've got abide by the RAW, and Guilleman missed that one.

Guilliman missed nothing. The Codex just has a really poor index and Brothers can't always find the right page in the heat of the moment.

[Feste]

I guess that's why there's a difference between icons and marks. I suppose icons are a shortcut to power, marks are more earned through whatever depravity pleased the god in question.

I like this! I like it a lot. Shortcuts to power are always what makes people evil. Star Wars taught me that. Apostles in training preaching hate, leading their squad on. That's cool, especially if you take the Fearless one. Mini-chaplains. To be honest though, they'd all be cool and have nice modelling opportunities. Flame-wreathed acolytes throwing fire at their enemies for Soul Burn.

 

You can't remove the god in one blow

Hi, I'm Draigo. Hear that you've got a God problem? We'll have that fixed in one good blow.

 

part of that game is the battle to take them out vs the battle to protect them.

That's the truth, just coz you paid 30pts for a Lascannon doesn't entitle you to use it for ever and ever. And 6th is shaping up to be nothing if not more tactical. Which is good.

 

Guilliman missed nothing. The Codex just has a really poor index and Brothers can't always find the right page in the heat of the moment.

The problem is that you've got too many Codiciers and not enough Concordants.

[darth_giles]

Good grief, that is the cheesiest, most sneaky awesome tactic I've ever heard. Talk about the law on unintended consequences!

Still, it's not quite precision shots and if you keep your Icon in with the herd it must cut down the incidence somewhat.

Its no cheesier than having a sergeant with a Storm Shield walking in front of a squad to try to absorb every single wound.

 

 

Maybe that's another point worth discussing, reasons why a God's favour is lost when is Icon Bearer is killed. Although does that even need any discussion?

Its an extension of the old clarification from the Sisters of Battle that a unit is no longer Faithful when it loses all its characters, which was a reaction to a few people making highly abusive WAAC lists based around taking two or three Acts of Faith per phase.

[Feste]

Its no cheesier than having a sergeant with a Storm Shield walking in front of a squad to try to absorb every single wound.

Not sure I agree with that. I think one's an exploitation of the rules, and the other simply using them. But aside from that, a sergeant with a storm shield will die eventually. Even TH/SS Terminators aren't invulnerable, and when sarge bites it you've lost an important character now. However Rhino-sniping has very downsides, the main one being if your Rhino gets wrecked in front of your Devastators face. And even then it's providing cover.

[Pariah Mk.231]

Good grief, that is the cheesiest, most sneaky awesome tactic I've ever heard. Talk about the law on unintended consequences!

Still, it's not quite precision shots and if you keep your Icon in with the herd it must cut down the incidence somewhat.

Its no cheesier than having a sergeant with a Storm Shield walking in front of a squad to try to absorb every single wound.

 

 

 

That's not cheesy, that's just a sergeant pretending he's a mauler from Gears of War with everyone cramming in behind him. Man, I hope Chaos gets some type of shield so I can model a champion with a giant flail, moving along like a mauler with his shield up (or even just some form of invul that I can represent with a shield).

[pingo]

Its no cheesier than having a sergeant with a Storm Shield walking in front of a squad to try to absorb every single wound.

That couldn't be less cheesy if it was made of chalk!

 

One thing 6th has given us is the shield wall. And that is cool.

 

I think it's probably sensible and works narratively if sarge is shielding his unit with his piece of wargear that is intended to, well, shield stuff. It's pure risk-reward: you stick sarge out there hoping to mitigate damage, but you're risking a valuable model to do so. And, again, things like this make a game of it.

 

In 6th, positioning is key. And most of the time, it won't be cheesy. I played a game where I hid 5 Sternguard behind a Predator as my opponent had the first turn. In my turn, they stepped out of their protection and opened fire. That is no different to real troops sheltering behind a tank as they approach a battle. Having the best protected stuff out front to absorb fire is just the same. It's a tactic. It is not cheese. Not even close.

 

However, if you're facing flashlights then the shieldy sarge tactic pointless, lol.

[Ammonius]

Its no cheesier than having a sergeant with a Storm Shield walking in front of a squad to try to absorb every single wound.

That couldn't be less cheesy if it was made of chalk!

 

One thing 6th has given us is the shield wall. And that is cool.

 

I think it's probably sensible and works narratively if sarge is shielding his unit with his piece of wargear that is intended to, well, shield stuff. It's pure risk-reward: you stick sarge out there hoping to mitigate damage, but you're risking a valuable model to do so. And, again, things like this make a game of it.

 

In 6th, positioning is key. And most of the time, it won't be cheesy. I played a game where I hid 5 Sternguard behind a Predator as my opponent had the first turn. In my turn, they stepped out of their protection and opened fire. That is no different to real troops sheltering behind a tank as they approach a battle. Having the best protected stuff out front to absorb fire is just the same. It's a tactic. It is not cheese. Not even close.

 

However, if you're facing flashlights then the shieldy sarge tactic pointless, lol.

Shield walls are cool indeed! I hope we get some shields in the new Codex :tu:

 

On the topic of cult troops, hope that the God-Aligned cult troops get some special element to set them apart from Marked and Icon-toting troops. Special weapons seems to figure prominently, with Noise Marines and Plague Marines getting special guns. I'd like to see that trend continue with Berzerkers getting special melee weapons (Chainaxes!) and Rubric Marines getting their psyker champions.

 

If this turns out to be true, then we would have truly special special units, backed up by their still-devoted-but-slightly less-special brethren. I am still prepared to expect the worst so that I might be pleasantly surprised, but oh! the possibilities if marks and Icons can be freely mixed!