Cult Troops in different Legions

[space wolf]

Its no cheesier than having a sergeant with a Storm Shield walking in front of a squad to try to absorb every single wound.

That couldn't be less cheesy if it was made of chalk!

 

One thing 6th has given us is the shield wall. And that is cool.

 

I think it's probably sensible and works narratively if sarge is shielding his unit with his piece of wargear that is intended to, well, shield stuff. It's pure risk-reward: you stick sarge out there hoping to mitigate damage, but you're risking a valuable model to do so. And, again, things like this make a game of it.

 

In 6th, positioning is key. And most of the time, it won't be cheesy. I played a game where I hid 5 Sternguard behind a Predator as my opponent had the first turn. In my turn, they stepped out of their protection and opened fire. That is no different to real troops sheltering behind a tank as they approach a battle. Having the best protected stuff out front to absorb fire is just the same. It's a tactic. It is not cheese. Not even close.

 

However, if you're facing flashlights then the shieldy sarge tactic pointless, lol.

 

Usually, if you're facing flashlights, the flashlights are your least worry...

[*Furyou Miko]

Thus space wolf proves that he has never faced mass lasguns.

[pingo]

Usually, if you're facing flashlights, the flashlights are your least worry...

I really don't see how that's relvant to anything B)

 

I'm afraid you lost me there, hairy one :P

[space wolf]

Thus space wolf proves that he has never faced mass lasguns.

 

I suppose in this aspect you are right. I play guard, I don't play against them. Guard have far more dangerous things than lasguns, that's all I'm saying. But if its an all infantry list, I could see how 120 lasguns could be a problem. My point is, if you're playing with a sergeant with a SS hoping to soak up fire, I'd be more worried about the masses of artillery, that will just skip the sergeant completely and kill everything within the template. Thus making your very expensive Vet Sergeant, pretty useless...at least that's what I would do....but what do I know, I'm just an 9 foot man with a golden retriever's brain... :D

[*Furyou Miko]

"Ah, you ground pounders with your big guns and heavy armour are so spoiled... Massed lasguns and careful positioning or special weapons are how a real Imperial Guardswoman fights!" - Colonel Sion ferch Aeron, Solstice Lunar III drop engineers, A Company.

 

:cuss

[totgeboren]

I have been using my Champions as Icon bearers for the last few years actually. One day I realised I didn't like the look of icons in my squads, so I just tell my opponents, "All champions also count as carrying an Icon of Chaos Glory".

As I play Word Bearers it represents their fanatical devotion to their leaders, but if their leader dies they lose both the Ld 10 and the reroll. I think they behave quite fitting to the background this way.

[Caffeineated Chaos]

Your 'icon bearer' could be some kind of prophet or preacher, whose words channel a god's favours and blessings. If he is killed, that conduit to power is lost. I can see Word Bearers using something like that - almost like mini Dark Apostles :)

 

Actually this is very similar to an idea I had for my DIY warband the Brotherhood of Slaughter, they're a bunch of particularly devout Khorne worshipers, including having a secondary religious leader beyond their lord known as a Blood Apsotle. Every squad(even the Berzerkers) are being modeled w/ an icon bearer, called blood acolytes, they shout litanies and chants meant to inspire and enrage their fellow brothers. This ties in with that very nicely.

[Feste]

That's really cool CC, I like the extra depth it give Khorne worshipers. They're always 'ME SMASH' etc, a bit of religious ferver is a nice touch.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I've just read this entire topic over since I still have an idea for a Chaos Warband percolating in the back of my head (something to oppose my Tau and my Imperium/Inquisition/et all forces) and I'm still confused as to why the notion of cult troops in non-Legion warbands doesn't make sense. Perhaps it's because I've never played a Chaos force, or don't know any of the Codex specific rules so I'm free to just look at it from a fluff only angle. Let me give an example of what I'm thinking of.

 

Start with a band of Alpha Legion marines. While they're not James Bond commandos being that well, they're Space Marines, they fully believe in bringing enemy forces to their knees by logistics, intelligence, manipulation, and sabotague before bringing down the hammer upon their weakened heads. Naturally the majority of the force would be standard Marines (I have a conversion in mind about combining parts of the fantasy Chaos Warriors model, with chestplate, arms and heads from Chaos and Loyalist Space Marines). However, I had an idea of my own and one inspiration from this very thread about other aspects to the army that would add a lot of variety as well as utility on the tabletop.

 

Firstly, I loved the idea about "zombie" animated marines as rubrics. My original thought is "well killer robots works as a rubrics" but that's very Necron. However, taking an idea I've seen here and there about Modrak's "ghost knights" and the zombie rubrics idea made me think "What about sticking fantasy skeleton heads on Space Marine armor and have reanimated skeletons shooting flaming soul bolts of destruction from shouldn't-be-working bolters?" All this rquires fluffwise is that a psyker/sorceror attached to the Alpha Legion force learned a way to animate some dead bodies... shouldn't be too bad and very Chaos like. Could probably actually just use Legion of the Damned models and do some altering since those ones already have lots of skulls and fire imagery. Add Chaos backpacks here and there and call it good.

 

So a warband primarily of Alpha Legion marines, with a group of skeletons animated by an overeager sorceror. Raptors or jump troops are easy to add as it's simply one section of warriors that decided the thrill of the hunt and spreading terror in their 'prey' is really cool. However then we go onto my other idea of what to add... inspired by some events of zombie apocalypse in the news, things like Doom, or the Fallout series, or the horror of XCom Chrysallids turning your own forces against you/Tyrannid Gene Stealers...

 

Radiation/chemical warfare/zombie apocalypse!

 

You all will probably shout "Death Guard" at me, but somehow it seems very fitting for the Alpha Legion's style of warfare of killing you before we even begin pulling the trigger to spread a zombie plague, let the hive city or their target begin killing each other, then come in as a minor mopping up action and making off with all the best loot to get back to their cloaked pirate cruiser of destruction. Fantasy ghouls make perfect plague zombies to represent citizenry mutated by chemicals and various things into zombies, which are perfect shock troops/expendibles to distract people letting your actual forces perform their mission elsewhere. Great example of "look at the left hand, look at the left hand, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain and the right hand."

 

Perhaps someone decided they were going to imitate Fabius Bile, or maybe there was some information that was tortured out of an Apothecary or Imperial databanks. Perhaps they were working on a super-soldier program of "volunteers" (heh.. super-soldier super-soldiers) and some results turned into "plague marines" and the rest gave them a zombie formula? Turn planet A into zombie apocalypse to distract the Imperium while you then walk over to planet B and take the doomsday device?

 

Being a warband that operates outside of the Eye of Terror, they would be scavangers for equipment and new stock. This makes them roving pirates in a few ships led by the most creative effective raider, who becomes the man in charge. Perhaps a counts-as Typhus so I can take advantage of the rumors about zombie plagues? Only to do it entirely non-nurgle. Or do I scrap Typhus and just make a really neat model, or perhaps that Forge World special character which is simply a guy with a relic blade.

 

So what does this leave me? Alpha Legion pirate warband, with at least one Sorceror and one "aspiring Apothecary geneticist/mad scientist", a unit of rubrics that aren't Thousand Sons, a unit of Plague Marines that aren't Death Guard, keeping true to Alpha Legion tactics and killing you before the war even starts, and having an army that is true both to Legion background and modern warband theory filled with custom modelling potential and something resembling tabletop effectiveness.

 

Sometimes people get used to doing things a certain way. I'm still having gnashing of teeth over not getting to field IST squads without Coteaz and having to redo my entire collection because of the massive overhauls of the Daemon Hunter and Witch Hunter books. But at the same time... sometimes coming in with nothing and making a good story then seeing how the rules fit it is just as good. After all, there's more to Chaos then just the heresy.

[darth_giles]

That's really cool CC, I like the extra depth it give Khorne worshipers. They're always 'ME SMASH' etc, a bit of religious ferver is a nice touch.

Depends on how your local tournament handles its scoring. If they use the late 3rd edition to early 4th edition system that gives points for theme instead of comp, expect to lose all theme points for playing Khorne as anything but "hulk smash." That's why I loathe Khârn more than any other special character, because all Khorne Berzerkers are expected to behave just like him.

[Caffeineated Chaos]

That's really cool CC, I like the extra depth it give Khorne worshipers. They're always 'ME SMASH' etc, a bit of religious ferver is a nice touch.

Depends on how your local tournament handles its scoring. If they use the late 3rd edition to early 4th edition system that gives points for theme instead of comp, expect to lose all theme points for playing Khorne as anything but "hulk smash." That's why I loathe Khârn more than any other special character, because all Khorne Berzerkers are expected to behave just like him.

Depends on how they handle theme. I know plenty of people that would buy into my theme. And there's plenty of "Hulk Smash" among the butcher's nails types(these guys are splinter WE), only the most favored and strongest willed can reason past the nails the way Angron and Khârn used to. By we have plenty of guys without the nails among my "tacticals" and teeth of Khorne Havoks. That and nowhere I've been have done theme points, always a completion tourney alongside a painting contest, so I don't foresee an issue anytime soon. Oh and Ultimately, Rule of Cool wins

[Feste]

Wow, theme points sound like the most one-dimensional thing I've ever heard. The way you describe them, it's pretty much anti-theme forcing monochromatic lists on every one.

 

Inquisitor NicolePyykkonen: Don't worry, there's isn't a reason why unaligned warbands shouldn't have cult troops, any of the cult troops. They're all fair game.

 

I like your idea about Alpha Legion, the problem with representing them has always been that they're most awesome before the fighting. There's a great story in the Codex about how they spent 300 years preparing a Marine chapter to splinter and go insane when they attacked.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Inquisitor NicolePyykkonen: Don't worry, there's isn't a reason why unaligned warbands shouldn't have cult troops, any of the cult troops. They're all fair game.

 

I like your idea about Alpha Legion, the problem with representing them has always been that they're most awesome before the fighting. There's a great story in the Codex about how they spent 300 years preparing a Marine chapter to splinter and go insane when they attacked.

Yeah, I know what you mean ^_^ Then again, I'm working and have worked on things like customizing Inquisitorial warbands with various models and backstories that only get to exist in my head since it's all things that would be off the tabletop or on a totally different scale so maybe I've just gotten used to it.

 

"Man, that Inquisitor sucks, don't take the Hereticus ones, only take Malleus in Terminator Armor or Xenos with grenades."

"You totally missed the point of having about a decade of backstory building time didn't you? Let me beat you over the head with my army case filled with all pewter models..."

 

I understand loyalty to fluff and how things were, and the comaparative awesomeness of the 3.5 Codex (my roommate that got me into 40k had a Night Lords army at that time, though he didn't trade for extra fast attack slots and instead had a predator annihilator with a rediculous kill count). I guess where my confusion lay is in what seems to be a preference for mono'd lists. I noticed it in my own forums (Grey Knights and Sisters) with the older Codex's as everyone wanted a pure Grey Knights or pure Sisters force, regardless of what background and actual army fluff stated. It could be a quirk of where I am, but it seems like there's a lot of Chaos players who prefer just one or two aspects of Chaos and go for a lot of mono builds. I acknowledge that older books take a lot of lumps and sometimes you lack awe inspiring options (remember, I've played Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters for the last decade) but never ended up abandoning units I felt were fun for me to play because they were less effective than something new and shiney.

 

So I guess my question comes down to this... is it because older lists didn't let some of the original Legions have anything not of their Legion or unaligned? Is it a case of old fluff vs new fluff? I know that older lists were all about the Legions still, and the "warband" concept is relatively newer, but if the game itself has shifted...

 

Is it impossible to say, have a World Eaters warband.. one that originally was predominantly/entirely World Eaters. But over the years say one squad performed a very brutal raid and action in some sort of biochemical plant and slaughtered a platoon that happened to number 49 guardsmen in it. Instead of dying or melting to acid.. their bodies lingered. Over years their armor warped and mutated, and low and behold those who were once World Eaters became Plague Marines. But because older fluff has them as all being Beserkers this is impossible even though it makes for a neat story?

 

With the obvious exception of Thousand Sons (who are all um... already dead...) is it impossible for the allegience of troops from the older Legions to ever shift? I thought Chaos was fickle and capricious in it's loyalties and gifts, wouldn't that also extend to things 10,000 years later? Or as the older Legions fracture into Warbands, and the Warbands take in new blood or recruits, create new Marines or what have you... is it impossible for them to take whatever allies are offered to them or for the Warbands to become individualized over time?

 

I apologize if some of these questions are so obvious to you all they sound stupid... my focus before has always been on the lore of the Inquisition and it's chambers militant as well as what Xenos lore became attached to it. Lore of Chaos is a newer thing for me save what I've picked up from the other side.

[The Colossus]

Inquisitor NicolePyykkonen: Don't worry, there's isn't a reason why unaligned warbands shouldn't have cult troops, any of the cult troops. They're all fair game.

 

I like your idea about Alpha Legion, the problem with representing them has always been that they're most awesome before the fighting. There's a great story in the Codex about how they spent 300 years preparing a Marine chapter to splinter and go insane when they attacked.

Yeah, I know what you mean :( Then again, I'm working and have worked on things like customizing Inquisitorial warbands with various models and backstories that only get to exist in my head since it's all things that would be off the tabletop or on a totally different scale so maybe I've just gotten used to it.

 

"Man, that Inquisitor sucks, don't take the Hereticus ones, only take Malleus in Terminator Armor or Xenos with grenades."

"You totally missed the point of having about a decade of backstory building time didn't you? Let me beat you over the head with my army case filled with all pewter models..."

 

I understand loyalty to fluff and how things were, and the comaparative awesomeness of the 3.5 Codex (my roommate that got me into 40k had a Night Lords army at that time, though he didn't trade for extra fast attack slots and instead had a predator annihilator with a rediculous kill count). I guess where my confusion lay is in what seems to be a preference for mono'd lists. I noticed it in my own forums (Grey Knights and Sisters) with the older Codex's as everyone wanted a pure Grey Knights or pure Sisters force, regardless of what background and actual army fluff stated. It could be a quirk of where I am, but it seems like there's a lot of Chaos players who prefer just one or two aspects of Chaos and go for a lot of mono builds. I acknowledge that older books take a lot of lumps and sometimes you lack awe inspiring options (remember, I've played Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters for the last decade) but never ended up abandoning units I felt were fun for me to play because they were less effective than something new and shiney.

 

So I guess my question comes down to this... is it because older lists didn't let some of the original Legions have anything not of their Legion or unaligned? Is it a case of old fluff vs new fluff? I know that older lists were all about the Legions still, and the "warband" concept is relatively newer, but if the game itself has shifted...

 

Is it impossible to say, have a World Eaters warband.. one that originally was predominantly/entirely World Eaters. But over the years say one squad performed a very brutal raid and action in some sort of biochemical plant and slaughtered a platoon that happened to number 49 guardsmen in it. Instead of dying or melting to acid.. their bodies lingered. Over years their armor warped and mutated, and low and behold those who were once World Eaters became Plague Marines. But because older fluff has them as all being Beserkers this is impossible even though it makes for a neat story?

 

With the obvious exception of Thousand Sons (who are all um... already dead...) is it impossible for the allegience of troops from the older Legions to ever shift? I thought Chaos was fickle and capricious in it's loyalties and gifts, wouldn't that also extend to things 10,000 years later? Or as the older Legions fracture into Warbands, and the Warbands take in new blood or recruits, create new Marines or what have you... is it impossible for them to take whatever allies are offered to them or for the Warbands to become individualized over time?

 

I apologize if some of these questions are so obvious to you all they sound stupid... my focus before has always been on the lore of the Inquisition and it's chambers militant as well as what Xenos lore became attached to it. Lore of Chaos is a newer thing for me save what I've picked up from the other side.

 

Cult troops are cult troops till they die, they're too far entrenched with a god. I think everyone likes 3.5 because although it was restrictive in some ways, it gave flavour, a way to play "Night Lords" rather than Black Legion painted dark blue. The current codex restored choice, at the expense of accurately representing anything. Fluff-wise the books ok, but rules-wise, nope. I think people look back at 3.5 with rose-tinted glasses because it was superior to the current book. It wasnt perfect though.

 

I think Chaos is the hardest codex to get right, there's so much choice in the background that you can't ever hope to please everyone. To be honest, if they give us a decent setof rules, I'm not bothered about the fluff- that's what counts as is for. My own army is a god-zealous Iron Warriors offshoot, with crazed Khornate assault troops (berserkers, but not world eaters), bionic marines (counts as plague marines), and a squad of thousand sons, modelled as ghosts of dead Space Marines, led by an aspiring sorceror (a member of my warband, not a Thousand Son). With me, ideas come first, and then I find the rules that fit my idea best.

 

Just my two kraks...