Grand Master Mordrak

[Gentlemanloser]

I've tried above. ;)

 

Run him solo if you just want a GKGM for TGS. His extra cost gets you more on him, than you could get off a normal GKGM. Especially if you include the 3 free GKT he can get (the only worthwhile Ghost Knights by the way! ;))

 

Or if he's in a unit of Ghosts, Deep Strike into cover and Shoot Storm Bolters. And pray he doesn't get easily sniped.

 

*Anything* else, and you're better of using a GKGM, or other unit, due to his hideous drawback of *poofing* 200 points worth of GKT, and the inability for his unit to take Ranged Special Weapons in an Edition that is even more heavily in favour of Shooting over CC than the last was.

[thade]

I'm with boreas. I was told again and again and again and again that Vanguard were crap.

 

Look where that got me.

 

WAAC rhymes with Whack, which around here is vernacular for crazy.

[Gentlemanloser]

'Nilla or Bangle Vanguard Thade? ;)

[boreas]

I've tried above. :(

 

That's why I mentionned not targetting anyone ;) It's not someone in particular, just a general vibe. :D

 

Phil

[The Mystic]

Here's a quick conundrum for ya's.....

 

I was reading the rules for IC's and came across this.

 

Independant Characters can join other units. They cannot, however join vehicle squadrons or units that ALWAYS consist of a single model (such as most vehicles and Monstrous Creatures).

 

Now since Mordrak does not always consist of a single model unit through either taking Ghost Knights or generating them, then RAW, could you attach IC's to him when taken singularly. I have'nt got my codex with me to check his rules thoroughly to determine the answer.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Well, here is the problem;

 

New players have no idea what is good and what isn't (hence why they ask). Regardless of their personal preferences, they want to win with their army of choice.

 

On a forum, it's more valuable and relevant to provide advice on what works, as opposed to what subjectively we like/don't like. Whether a unit is useful or not is a pretty objective measurement (it either does or doesn't). Whether a unit is 'cool' or 'interesting' is completely subjective, and offering advice on that basis is ultimately futile; people will like or dislike a unit regardless.

 

It's not about being 'poisoned by WAAC' (the very term Win At All Costs is a negative and derogatory anyway, it only promotes division) or 'being resigned to absolutes'. You're either deluded or taking the mickey if you think this game isn't about winning. IT IS. Don't give me the line about 'playing for fun'. Everyone does, and most of us want a game where both sides have fun and don't get upset.

 

Mordrak is a subjectively awesome (believe or not I like this background a lot) but objectively underpowered unit (because he is a unit, no one takes him solo). I really want him to work, and if you can do so in your own lists, more power to you. But its wrong to simply handwave away his very obvious rule flaws, its a disservice to other players who want advice on him.

 

It's like going 'oh Stern is so cool, he's such a badass, definitely take him'. Zone of Banishment is the the dumbest psychic power in the game, it kills your own models (GW went so full retard on Stern its unbelievable, until you read his rules and then see what he costs). Mordrak isn't quite that bad, but he still has problems (if he dies, the unit disappears, character assassination is easier now and his only defense is a 4+ Look Out Sir, assuming he isn't challenged, etc etc).

 

My best advice to new players is this; stay away from the SC's of any army. 40k isn't like Fantasy, there are good ones in amongst the mess, but the generic characters are designed by GW to be customisable, cheaper and more flexible to your personal preferences. Once you have had a few games with a generic HQ leading your army, and you have a handle on what units and playstyle works for you, then give them a try. Overwhelmingly, the SC's force you down a certain army path, due either to their unlocks or their own abilities. Until you know what you want from your army, start with the generic HQ's.

[boreas]

Of course, everybody likes to win. But not everyone needs to win. And players might not want to know what works. They might want to know how something works. There's a big difference. A player might not want to know which HQ works. He wants to know how Mordraks works (or doesn't). Or, at the very least how to make him work (or work better). Having SC demolished with "he sucks" doesn't serve any purpose. Telling the player: "Mordrak is not the best, but here's some experience I've had with him and those are the ways I might want to use him in the future"

 

To make a (very) rough parallel, it's like someone asking how chopsticks works and getting "Use a knife and fork, they are much more polyvalent. Chopsticks suck". Once again, I'm not talking about any one individual. Heck, I'm not only talking about this subforum. But the hyper-optimization of lists seem so prevalent I find it sad it leaves so little room to creative gaming... IMHO, GW is as much a cinematic game (almost cooperative in that sense) than a competitive game. That's possibly the reason why there about 20 pages of fluff for every page of rules (if you count BL).

 

 

I won't keep going on that and I'll add Mordrak in my next list in order to be able to give more advice than admonition later on <_<

 

Phil

[thade]

On a forum, it's more valuable and relevant to provide advice on what works, as opposed to what subjectively we like/don't like. Whether a unit is useful or not is a pretty objective measurement (it either does or doesn't). Whether a unit is 'cool' or 'interesting' is completely subjective, and offering advice on that basis is ultimately futile; people will like or dislike a unit regardless.

Actually, this is a fundamental disagreement we have here. I think it's at least equally valuable to share "How cool or fun" something is as it is to share how effective you feel it is. Believe it or not, battlefield effectiveness of a given unit is NOT a numerical certainty under a great many circumstances. Things like:

• How you use a given unit.
  
• What units you take with it, and how you use them.
  
• What types of terrain you have at your club; how you lay it out; how much of it you use.
  
• What your friends all play and how they play with them.
  

Some things are easy to translate, like the odds that a Vulkanized melta Dread in a Drop Pod will kill a Land Raider. Some things are not so easy, like what units are good for bait-and-switch, what units are good to support and feint Pincers, taking opponent psych into account, etc. Some units are very good for baiting. What units? Well, that depends on more than just how hard the unit hits. Some units just psych a certain opponent out or seem like easy pickings.

 

Besides, the game has a lot of numbers in it; it's extraordinarily complex with all of its options. So while one player may think the Callidus is tragic because she "just Deep Strikes in, kills two models, and sits there", another player may find her to be the ultimate piece in forcing her opponents to make uncomfortable decisions. "Kill the Callidus, or kill the scoring unit?" How do you force those decisions on players? Again, not numeric certainties.

 

You're either deluded or taking the mickey if you think this game isn't about winning. IT IS. Don't give me the line about 'playing for fun'. Everyone does, and most of us want a game where both sides have fun and don't get upset.

Well. This is both needlessly offensive and provably wrong. I've both played in games and seen games where it's hard to tell at a distance who's winning or losing, because both guys are laughing and cheering at models, clearly having a great time. If your attitude is really " It's all about the winning", I suspect it's independent of the game.

 

Mordrak is a subjectively awesome (believe or not I like this background a lot) but objectively underpowered unit (because he is a unit, no one takes him solo).

This demonstrates that you have no idea how to use him effectively, which is fine; there are a TON of models in the game that I don't quite understand the purpose of; however I'm not about to under-estimate any model that's placed on the table across from me. Not until after I've killed it in several games.

 

My best advice to new players is this; stay away from the SC's of any army. 40k isn't like Fantasy, there are good ones in amongst the mess, but the generic characters are designed by GW to be customisable, cheaper and more flexible to your personal preferences. Once you have had a few games with a generic HQ leading your army, and you have a handle on what units and playstyle works for you, then give them a try. Overwhelmingly, the SC's force you down a certain army path, due either to their unlocks or their own abilities. Until you know what you want from your army, start with the generic HQ's.

While I disagree with practically all of your basis, your conclusion here I do agree with: customizeable HQs are fun and let you get creative. The GK Codex has some of the best of them too: Grand Masters and Librarians are both absolutely fantastic. Definitely start with them, as otherwise you will only use a SC for their "obvious purpose" and not a fun one. Don't get pigeon holed.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Of course, everybody likes to win. But not everyone needs to win. And players might not want to know what works. They might want to know how something works. There's a big difference. A player might not want to know which HQ works. He wants to know how Mordraks works (or doesn't). Or, at the very least how to make him work (or work better). Having SC demolished with "he sucks" doesn't serve any purpose. Telling the player: "Mordrak is not the best, but here's some experience I've had with him and those are the ways I might want to use him in the future

 

I completely agree. That is why I go to some lengths to explain why I consider Mordrak a sub-par HQ.

 

To make a (very) rough parallel, it's like someone asking how chopsticks works and getting "Use a knife and fork, they are much more polyvalent. Chopsticks suck". Once again, I'm not talking about any one individual. Heck, I'm not only talking about this subforum. But the hyper-optimization of lists seem so prevalent I find it sad it leaves so little room to creative gaming... IMHO, GW is as much a cinematic game (almost cooperative in that sense) than a competitive game. That's possibly the reason why there about 20 pages of fluff for every page of rules (if you count BL).

 

The two are not mutually exclusive. You can build characterful, interesting and varied armies out of Codex: Grey Knights, and still win. You can have more laid-back narrative missions and campaigns where there might be different objectives. Hell, in pickup games with strangers and friends, we often try to get our HQ's in hand to hand for a duel. I don't understand this attitude of 'fun or effective', you can have both.

 

How you use a given unit.

What units you take with it, and how you use them.

What types of terrain you have at your club; how you lay it out; how much of it you use.

What your friends all play and how they play with them.

 

Well 40k isn't about certainty, its about probability, so I feel your kinda strawman'ing my argument there ;) unintentional though it may be.

 

I'm not saying 100% of the time, Mordrak will be a waste of points and you'll lose every game you use him. There is however the meta-game, which fluctuates and changes (6th put a landmine under most of the preconceptions of last edition, but not all). In the meta-game, Mordrak has several problems which are part n parcel of how he works. You get free Ghost Knights when he takes wounds, but a single S8 wound on him removes the entire unit. He Deepstrikes without scatter, but you can't charge from Reserves, so all he can do is plink away with some storm bolter when he lands. His unit lacks psycannons, which prevents them from hurting anything with AV11 or with the save/wounds to shrug off bolter fire.

 

If I were anal retentive, I could sit down and do the raw mathhammer about just how much worse Mordrak+friends are compared to Paladins or Terminator blob. However, that isn't the point. Meta-game wise, I can point out that 400pts is a lot for six Terminators, and there a multiude of ways to snipe characters in units now (challenges, positioning, failed 'Look Our Sir', spamming wounds into the unit, killing the ablative Ghost Knights then hitting him with a lascannon etc).

 

Well. This is both needlessly offensive and provably wrong. I've both played in games and seen games where it's hard to tell at a distance who's winning or losing, because both guys are laughing and cheering at models, clearly having a great time. If your attitude is really " It's all about the winning", I suspect it's independent of the game.

 

;) Thade, srsly. It's a simple proposition. When you enter into a match, in a game with extremely clear win conditions, and a binary case of a winner and a loser...you're telling me you don't go into that scenario wanting to win (and trying your best to do so) ? Because I don't believe it. I mean sure, be gracious in defeat, and don't take it too seriously etc. But we all spend a good amount of time and money on this hobby, and seeing as forums are generally filled with rules disputes/queries/battle reports...I mean, we're debating the competitive merits of a unit in this thread. If winning or losing doesn't matter to you, what does it matter if Mordrak is bad or not? By that logic, we should all take the troll servitor list and just enjoy the spectacle B)

 

Primary:

 

HQ:

 

Coteaz

(100 points)

 

Troops:

 

(6) 3 x Acolyte w/power armour+2 x storm shields, 9 x servitors

(222 points each)

 

Secondary:

 

HQ:

 

Inquisitor w/chainsword+laspistol, servo-skull

(28 points)

 

Troops:

 

(4) 3 x Acolyte w/power armour+2 x storm shields, 9 x servitors

(222 points each)

 

3 x Acolyte w/power armour+2 x storm shields, 2 x servitors

(152 points)

 

Total: 2,500 on the dot

[Stormshadow]

Hello all,

 

I wanted to try Mordrak in a list and was wondering if he was worth taking?

 

Your thoughts?

 

He is worth taking if:

 

1, you like the fluff and/or look of the character.

2, haven’t tried him out yet.

3, know how to use him.

 

Mordrak is a GK Grand master with a MC-Hammer, and costs 15p more than a normal GM with a MC-Hammer. For those 15p you get an additional wound and the possibility to spawn 3 additional knights worth 120p total, effectively bringing his cost down to 80pts (200-120). If a character has a S8 shooting attack and manages to roll a 6 to hit, and doesn’t roll a 1 to wound, and Mordrak fails his LOS! And fails his invulnerable save or his +1(+2) cover save, he will die. As will any other GM (but with a worse cover save). If Mordrak dies all ghosts go with him. So why take the Ghosts when they can be killed with a single (but very lucky) Melta shot? Well, for the same reason you would take a Land Raider basically. Yes they can shoot, but mostly they are taken to 1, Protect units (ether with armor ore blocking LoS), and 2, getting a unit into CC (ether by driving up and disembarking or slingshoting). Mordraks ghosts will get him (and in my case Draigo) into cc within turn one or two (depending on who goes first and where you chose to deep strike), they will also absorb fire from shooting and grant +1 cover save to the unit, they also cost 55pts less than a Land Raider. Once in cc Draigo and Mordrak together are a super combo team. Together there is nothing they can’t kill, and they are rely tough to kill, Draigo with 4W, 3++, EW and Mordrak with 4W, 4++, and ghost spawn.

 

He is an acquired taste however and will only work with some lists.

[Gentlemanloser]

Or you face a player who know how to use his rhinos, and disembarks a Squad/Squads, uses the Rhinos to move/flat out to block LoS to anyone else in the Squad except Mordrak, hits him with a couple of Meltas, and you watch your 200 point units go poof.

 

Or Mordrak is challenged in CC by something equipped with a Power Fist or above.

 

6th has changed sniping *so much*. It's far, far, far easier to snipe individuals you want to kill, and having one that makes an additional 200 points of units go *poof* with him is downright absurd.

 

Rhino sniping FTW.

 

Mordraks ghosts will get him (and in my case Draigo) into cc within turn one

 

If you Deep Strike, this is impossible. Unless you're refering to your opponent charging you, if you've gone first. In which case they can do that anyway, without the need of Ghost Knights.

 

This demonstrates that you have no idea how to use him effectively

 

Challenge accepted! How do you use him 'effectively'? :)

 

And I'll show you some other unit that's more 'effective' in whatever it is you've done. ^_^ (Edit: Bar spawning three free GKT. Which has never been in question!)

[Stormshadow]

Or you face a player who know how to use his rhinos, and disembarks a Squad/Squads, uses the Rhinos to move/flat out to block LoS to anyone else in the Squad except Mordrak, hits him with a couple of Meltas, and you watch your 200 point units go poof.

 

Or Mordrak is challenged in CC by something equipped with a Power Fist or above.

 

”Or” in reference to what? I don’t quiet follow you… ;)

 

Anyway, if the unit is challenged by a power fist it would be a lot better to accept the challenge with either Draigo or the Librarian with a stave. (If you deep strike Mordrak without at least one additional IC you clearly aren’t using him for reason number 3 :P )

 

And I would love to see someone using there Rhinos like that :). It’s always fun to force someones hand in deployment, and dropping some templates on units out of their transports. But if someone actually managed to get there shots of at only Mordrak I would only applaud his efforts. :)

[Stormshadow]

Mordraks ghosts will get him (and in my case Draigo) into cc within turn one

 

If you Deep Strike, this is impossible. Unless you're refering to your opponent charging you, if you've gone first. In which case they can do that anyway, without the need of Ghost Knights.

 

You often answer your own questions ;).

 

You don’t need the ghosts, but I would recommend you to take at least 4 of them, 3 at a minimum (if you want to keep deep striking as an option)

[YourMumRang]

How about building an alpha-striking list around Modrak?

 

You have your great turn 1 Deep Strike without scatter into cover. Let's start shoving units into our opponents' face shall we?

Add in Dreadknights with Personal Teleporters and Incinerators. Shunt first turn and burn something.

Add in Interceptors with Psycannons/Incinerators. Shunt first turn and pleb something.

Ally some Drop Pods 3+ and have something like Sternguard, Meltagun Honor Guard or even a Dread land and pleb something.

 

Kinda fun!

[Stormshadow]

Add in Dreadknights with Personal Teleporters and Incinerators. Shunt first turn and burn something.

Add in Interceptors with Psycannons/Incinerators. Shunt first turn and pleb something.

Ally some Drop Pods 3+ and have something like Sternguard, Meltagun Honor Guard or even a Dread land and pleb something.

 

This will be extra fun if the opponent deploys outside of his vehicles in an attempt to single out Mordrak with them. ;)

[boreas]

How about building an alpha-striking list around Modrak?

 

You have your great turn 1 Deep Strike without scatter into cover. Let's start shoving units into our opponents' face shall we?

Add in Dreadknights with Personal Teleporters and Incinerators. Shunt first turn and burn something.

Add in Interceptors with Psycannons/Incinerators. Shunt first turn and pleb something.

Ally some Drop Pods 3+ and have something like Sternguard, Meltagun Honor Guard or even a Dread land and pleb something.

 

Kinda fun!

 

That might be fun... You could add Coteaz, so you get a better chance or having first turn. It also gives you a chance to have cheap troop (to offset the high cost of Mordrak+kinghts). Two shunting dreadknights would definitely reduce the pressure on Mordrak. Rhinos can be taken out pretty quickly (to prevent the ghost knights being pushed around and leaving Mordrak in the open).

 

I'm not yet sure that Meltaguns will be as prevalent in 6th ed. I think ground vehicles will be used far less (I myself will probably be cutting rhinos from my list as I've found them a bit... unwieldy!?). The Mordrak alpha-bomb is a bit of a one-trick pony, but then again the C:GK is so full of those (henchmen spam, draigowing) that you can alternate between ponies and keep your opponent guessing.

 

Phil

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Everyone likes to win but for some people winning is the only thing.

[thade]

:) Thade, srsly. It's a simple proposition. When you enter into a match, in a game with extremely clear win conditions, and a binary case of a winner and a loser...you're telling me you don't go into that scenario wanting to win (and trying your best to do so) ? Because I don't believe it.

Of course I go into a game trying to win; I want present my opponent with a challenge so we both have a good time. That wasn't the dispute; the dispute was whether winning is "all there is", which you seemed to be asserting. Which, no offense, but it sounds like the stance of a 12-year old with a raging, win-or-you're-not-my-son father looming over his life.

 

If winning or losing doesn't matter to you, what does it matter if Mordrak is bad or not? By that logic, we should all take the troll servitor list and just enjoy the spectacle :P

Slippery slope? Surely you jest.

 

At the end of the day, no matter how expensive they are or how many hours we spend with these little plastic man-dolls inches from our face, they are little plastic man-dolls. If winning is all that matters, maybe a game with clearer rules and professional rules enforcers would be more appropriate. Like American Football? What's funny about that example is that - even there - winning isn't everything, because even a team that tends to lose can have a feverish fanbase and gets money from swag sales and sponsors/advertisements. When you see two members on opposite teams high-fiving each other because one of them just took two guys on the other team down while blocking for the quarterback, you are seeing the kind of attitude I'd like to see in my 40k games.

[Gentlemanloser]

”Or” in reference to what? I don’t quiet follow you…

 

and manages to roll a 6 to hit

 

Don't need precision shots or a Vindicare if Mordrak is the only dude in LoS. :)

 

This will be extra fun if the opponent deploys outside of his vehicles in an attempt to single out Mordrak with them.

 

You don't deploy outside your Transport! That's just silly.

 

You disembark. Then move the rhinos to block LoD either in their movement, or you Flat out them in the shooting Phase, before you shoot with the unit.

 

And I would love to see someone using there Rhinos like that

 

Advanced Rhino tactics! V formations so you can shoot by not be assaulted in return. Using them to give Cover Saves to Dreads. Tank Shocking. And now blocking LoS.

 

The humble 35 point Rhino can be so much more than just a transport. :P

 

You often answer your own questions

 

I try to see all sides to an arguement, and I sometimes pre-empt answers I think I'll receive. ;)

[YourMumRang]

Here's my list using the above strat....

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...56956Here's

[the jeske]

When you see two members on opposite teams high-fiving each other because one of them just took two guys on the other team down while blocking for the quarterback, you are seeing the kind of attitude I'd like to see in my 40k games.

God I tried to imagine what would happen If I was in the spartak section of the stadium and got happy, because lokomotive scored a goal .

[Stormshadow]

Advanced Rhino tactics! V formations so you can shoot by not be assaulted in return. Using them to give Cover Saves to Dreads. Tank Shocking. And now blocking LoS.

 

The humble 35 point Rhino can be so much more than just a transport. ;)

 

HAHA. I remember the good old DH days when you had to use the V, inverted V, splitting up a unit with multiple tank shocks and so on to win all the uphill battles. It always left me feeling so dirty though :P. This almost had to be done with the Land Raiders, the rhinos were too busy hiding in reserve with your terrified storm troopers. It would be so cute to see little rhinos puttering around pretending to be Land Raiders :lol:

 

When deep striking in a circle with Mordrak in the middle it will be fun to see all the maneuvering your opponent will have to do to single out Mordrak. Perhaps a multiple tank shock followed by a deep strike… Any way I look forward to seeing it. I can’t wait until they start doing 2000pts tournaments around here (may have to make one myself). I will run Draigo, Mordrak and 2 Psycannon inquisitors, and maybe ally some Sternguards for some extra DS love :D

[Captain Juan Juarez]

When you see two members on opposite teams high-fiving each other because one of them just took two guys on the other team down while blocking for the quarterback, you are seeing the kind of attitude I'd like to see in my 40k games.

God I tried to imagine what would happen If I was in the spartak section of the stadium and got happy, because lokomotive scored a goal .

 

If it's as bad in Russia as it gets in places like Argentina; commiserations to your family for your untimely passing.

[thade]

When you see two members on opposite teams high-fiving each other because one of them just took two guys on the other team down while blocking for the quarterback, you are seeing the kind of attitude I'd like to see in my 40k games.

God I tried to imagine what would happen If I was in the spartak section of the stadium and got happy, because lokomotive scored a goal .

 

If it's as bad in Russia as it gets in places like Argentina; commiserations to your family for your untimely passing.

haha I was referring to the players...not the insane fans. <_<

[Captain Juan Juarez]

When you see two members on opposite teams high-fiving each other because one of them just took two guys on the other team down while blocking for the quarterback, you are seeing the kind of attitude I'd like to see in my 40k games.

God I tried to imagine what would happen If I was in the spartak section of the stadium and got happy, because lokomotive scored a goal .

 

If it's as bad in Russia as it gets in places like Argentina; commiserations to your family for your untimely passing.

haha I was referring to the players...not the insane fans. :)

 

Insanity is infectious.. Just ask Mr. Duck, he'll tell you.