Force Weapons and FNP

[Zedrenael]

I was using a librarian against a Trygon and hit it with a Force Axe that then I can use the Force rule to instant kill it off that one wound, but FnP says that an unsaved wound of anything short of Instant death can be taken. Now since I can not use the Force rule until an unsaved wound it taken and FnP can not be used until an unsaved wound is taken. Which happens first?? My force axe or FnP??

[dswanick]

"At other times, you'll find that both players will have to do something at the same time. When these things happen, the player whos turn it is decides the order in which the events occur.", BRB, Pg.9

You want to test to make your unsaved wound Instant Death. Your opponent wants to test to save the unsaved wound using Feel No Pain. If it was your turn, you decide which happens first. If it was your opponent's, he decieds.

[Ushtarador]

I interpret this as follows: If you fail your regular save, you take an unsaved wound. The psycher can now attempt to activate his force weapon. If he succeeds, the wound inflicts instant death and you can't use FnP against it. If he fails, you can use it as normal.

I don't like determining the order depending on whos turn it is, it seems stupid to me.

[Zedrenael]

Thank you for the clarification

[SnorriSnorrison]

I'd say you FnP before the instant death rule. In order to activate the force weapon, you need an unsaved wound. The Trygon is allowed to attempt FnP after he failed his armour save(or if there was none), and after that, you have your needed unsaved wound. Before the FnP, you have inflicted a wound that your opponent has a save against.

 

I think it makes sense, doesn't it?

 

 

Snorri

[Morollan]

I'm going to preface this reply by saying that I do not have the 6e rulebook in front of me so it is possible that I am remembering incorrectly.

 

However, IIRC, the Force Weapon itself does not inflict ID, it inflicts a wound. If unsaved, that wound then entitles the wielder to make a psychic test to inflict ID on the victim. Is that still correct? If so, FNP would still apply to the wound, as an unsaved wound has still been inflicted even if it is subsequently ignored by FNP, but the ID effect could still occur regardless of whether you make the FNP roll or not.

[Ushtarador]

FnP may not be used against wounds that inflict ID. As soon as a force weapon is activated, the wound does inflict ID. In my german rulebook, the wording implies that force weapon activation takes priority over FnP, but that may not be intentional. Could someone post the english version?

 

@snorri you may use FnP as soon as you take an unsaved wound. FnP itself is explicitly NOT a save.

[Zedrenael]

That is the issue that I have run into is the timing of the whole thing. They both react off the unsaved wound, but is the wound still unsaved after the FnP? Does the force weapon trigger before FnP? Can FnP stop a force weapon in its tracks? Is it based on whos turn it is?

[Mezkh]

It's based on whose turn it is because it's a simultaneous event, IMO.

 

Same as Entropic Strike vs Feel No Pain

[Zedrenael]

So it is better to assault on our turn then to get the Force Weapon to go off on MC.

[Mezkh]

Yup.

 

I prefer the turn thing to a chicken/egg D6 roll-off myself.

[Dark Legionnare]

I've always placed FW procs before FNP so far in 6th. It makes more sense, the word that's been going around is "flufological" and that's what help me make my decision. The wording of FNP vs Force Weapons can lean either way with spinning and interpretation.

 

But the idea that in the fluff a Force weapon is when a Psyker's weapon channels their energies through the opponent's body and burns out their mind, soul, what-have-you. "Fake-magic-physics-wise" it would make sense that you can't "Feel no pain" your brain or soul back from being a burned out husk. If the weapon doesn't wound you because your TDA or force-field keeps it at bay, that makes sense. But if that axe, sword, staff, or halberd pierces and gets to the opponent, and the test is passed, he lights up like a psychic Christmas tree and fries, no amount of adrenaline rush or "Let me grit my teeth harder" will stop that. ;)

 

At least that's how I convinced other people in my gaming circles when this came up a week ago.

[Morollan]

At home now and looked at the 6e rules, which are different to 5e. Very clear that there is no FNP against force weapon wounds if the weapon is activated.

[Morticon]

At home now and looked at the 6e rules, which are different to 5e. Very clear that there is no FNP against force weapon wounds if the weapon is activated.

 

 

FNP:

 

"On a 5+ the unsaved wound is discounted- treat it as having been saved"

 

 

Surely this is open and shut guys?!

[Morollan]

At home now and looked at the 6e rules, which are different to 5e. Very clear that there is no FNP against force weapon wounds if the weapon is activated.

 

 

FNP:

 

"On a 5+ the unsaved wound is discounted- treat it as having been saved"

 

 

Surely this is open and shut guys?!

 

FNP: Note that FNP rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict Instant Death

 

Force: all unsaved wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule

 

Also, the Force rule says it can be activated immediately upon an unsaved wound

[Marik]

Throwing my hat into the simultaneous event crowd so whoever's turn it is determInes order

[Morticon]

At home now and looked at the 6e rules, which are different to 5e. Very clear that there is no FNP against force weapon wounds if the weapon is activated.

 

 

FNP:

 

"On a 5+ the unsaved wound is discounted- treat it as having been saved"

 

 

Surely this is open and shut guys?!

 

FNP: Note that FNP rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict Instant Death

 

Force: all unsaved wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule

 

Also, the Force rule says it can be activated immediately upon an unsaved wound

 

After reading all the relevant stuff- im with the simultaneous crew too ><;

[JamesI]

Throwing my hat into the simultaneous event crowd so whoever's turn it is determInes order

I'm not a fan of the simultaneous/goes to who ever's turn it is thing, but that is the rule.

[Leksington]

Throwing my hat into the simultaneous event crowd so whoever's turn it is determInes order

I'd suggest the order doesn't matter. The armor save failed so both FNP and force weapon proc. Even if you process the FNP roll first, the Force weapon already proced and will negate the result of a saved FNP roll.

[Mezkh]

Throwing my hat into the simultaneous event crowd so whoever's turn it is determInes order

I'd suggest the order doesn't matter. The armor save failed so both FNP and force weapon proc. Even if you process the FNP roll first, the Force weapon already proced and will negate the result of a saved FNP roll.

 

That doesn't make any sense. You can't proc a force weapon if there isn't an unsaved wound. A successful FNP means there isn't an unsaved wound allocated any point, it's not the case that the wound gets removed and then 'put back on'.

 

Hence the ruling for simultaneous events ;)

[Zeller]

So what do we do? Roll for FNP and the ID proc at the same time and whoever wins wins? What if you both proc? By failing the armor save you proc ID. There's already an unsaved wound in the timeline. FNP adds the chance to make another save. Two saves. ID requires one - the first one. Dunno, I'll refer to entropic strike or wait for GW to decide. >.>

[Mezkh]

So what do we do? Roll for FNP and the ID proc at the same time and whoever wins wins? What if you both proc? By failing the armor save you proc ID. There's already an unsaved wound in the timeline. FNP adds the chance to make another save. Two saves. ID requires one - the first one. Dunno, I'll refer to entropic strike or wait for GW to decide. >.>

 

Check page 9, the player whose turn it is decides the order in which the events occur. So if it's the Librarian owner's turn, he can decide to activate his force weapon before FNP is rolled - if successful, the FNP roll is discarded.

 

If it's the Trygon owner's turn, then he can choose to roll FNP as soon as he fails his save - if he passes, there is no unsaved wound for the Forceweapon to activate off. If he fails, then the Librarian can choose to activate the Force weapon.

[Morollan]

I play both BA and DE so rely heavily on FNP. Much as I might like to wish otherwise the presence of the word 'immediately' in the Force description implies to me that this happens before any FNP roll, rather than being simultaneous. I'm also slightly miffed at the "whoever's turn it is decides" rule as this seems utterly ridiculous. Exactly the same thing happens in 2 consecutive player turns with totally different results? Someone was smoking some bad sh...stuff when that one was written!

[Malus the Destroyer]

It specifically says in the 6th Ed BRB that Feel No Pain is not a saving throw. Before the part it says the wound is discounted- treat it as being saved. Force weapons activate upon an unsaved wound. I believe this gives precedence to Force weapon working before, or even regardless if the initial armor save is failed.

[dswanick]

Ummm,

 

It specifically says in the 6th Ed BRB that Feel No Pain is not a saving throw. Before the part it says the wound is discounted- treat it as being saved. Force weapons activate upon an unsaved wound. I believe this gives precedence to Force weapon working before, or even regardless if the initial armor save is failed.