Force Weapons and FNP

[Malus the Destroyer]

The important part there is "Feel No Pain is not a saving throw". So even if they get the roll for it, it was still an unsaved wound initially that would proc the Force Weapon.

[dswanick]

But is it an "unsaved Wound" if the rules tell you to "treat it as being saved"? This is another "counts as"-type question - How "counts as" do "counts as" things "count as" when you are told to "count as"... :(

[The Holy Heretic]

To make a roll, you've got to know all the variables e.g. you never start rolling to wound, before you've determined how many hits, you've scored.

 

In the same way, its quite clear to me:

 

The force weapon ID test takes priority,

 

simply because the FNP roll is dependant on knowing whether the wounds is ID or not.

 

 

-

 

That anyone would ever consider it the other way around is a bit curious in my eyes. I guess thats what army-wide FNP can do to a man ;)

[sp4rky]

To make a roll, you've got to know all the variables e.g. you never start rolling to wound, before you've determined how many hits, you've scored.

 

In the same way, its quite clear to me:

 

The force weapon ID test takes priority,

 

simply because the FNP roll is dependant on knowing whether the wounds is ID or not.

 

 

That anyone would ever consider it the other way around is a bit curious in my eyes. I guess thats what army-wide FNP can do to a man :)

 

 

But the same goes the other way around, doesn't it? You need to know if you have an unsaved wound before you can roll for the Force Weapon so the FNP could take precedent?

 

At the moment, I think this comes down to conflicting rules that are resolved in an order determined by the player who's turn it is.

[Grey Mage]

Force weapon insta-deaths are retroactive, so there is no reason IMHO that FNP wouldnt apply. Once the wound is through, then you get to activate the ability.

[Morollan]

Force weapon insta-deaths are retroactive, so there is no reason IMHO that FNP wouldnt apply. Once the wound is through, then you get to activate the ability.

 

But the Force rules say to immediately roll to activate the weapon, and that word is not seen anywhere in the FNP description. To my mind, this therefore happens before FNP.

[DarkGuard]

But FnP comes directly after failing a saving throw, if you pass then the wound is discounted, treated as being saved. The wound is therefore no longer saved and so the force weapon cannot be activated.

 

However, I feel that with Grey Knights, it may work. You take the test after the first wound I believe, and then all the rest of the attacks in the unit cause instant death. So a FnP unit passes FnP rolls except one against a couple of halberd models, who pass their force weapon test. From then on, all attacks are now causing instant death, and so the FnP unit would not be able to take FnP saves against swords, falchions and staves which have yet to strike. Does that sound legit?

[Seahawk]

"If a psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate..."

 

"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special FnP roll..."

 

 

It's simultaneous, and thus it's based on whose turn it is. Easy and done!

[Morollan]

But FnP comes directly after failing a saving throw, if you pass then the wound is discounted, treated as being saved. The wound is therefore no longer saved and so the force weapon cannot be activated.

 

I don't have the rulebook in front of me but what is the exact wording of the FNP rule? Does it say 'immediately'? If not then I would stand by my previous posts that the immediate wording of the Force rule tells us that the Force Weapon activation happens before you roll for FNP.

[DarkGuard]

Wording is the post above you Morollan. :P

[Morollan]

Wording is the post above you Morollan. :P

 

Thanks, yeah. Seahawk posted whilst I was typing. Still thinking that force happens first though. Why say immediately on one and not the other if not to say that one happens first?

[DarkGuard]

Because FnP is a factor that contributes to whether a wound is saved no that? That's the one straw I'm clutching at. If the attack had ID when being performed, then sure, no FnP. But it gains FnP after the wound, and FnP is linked to the saving throw. So I'd say that FnP should go first, I will certainly allow it to in my games.

[Seahawk]

The only thing shutting you down, which is a big one, is that FnP is not a save. The wound is still unsaved because you got through the three saves types and all failed, hence the "unsaved wound" bit. Once you pass the FnP roll, it merely says the wound is discounted, though for technical purposes it's treated as having been saved.

 

I'm still going to stick with "Active player decides until FAQ'd".

[Morollan]

Because FnP is a factor that contributes to whether a wound is saved no that?

 

It's a bit chicken and egg really Force turns an unsaved wound into ID which FNP doesn't work on but FNP can turn an unsaved wound into a saved wound which Force doesn't apply to. I still think 'immediately' is the key word here but would certainly welcome a FAQ on the issue!

[pingo]

Wording is the post above you Morollan. ;)

 

Thanks, yeah. Seahawk posted whilst I was typing. Still thinking that force happens first though. Why say immediately on one and not the other if not to say that one happens first?

Why would you think something that happens 'immediately' after a thing occurs takes place before something else that happens 'when' that same thing occurs?

 

As I read it:

 

- 'when' = simultaneous, at the same time

- 'immediately' = by necessity implies the event already occured

[Morollan]

Wording is the post above you Morollan. ;)

 

Thanks, yeah. Seahawk posted whilst I was typing. Still thinking that force happens first though. Why say immediately on one and not the other if not to say that one happens first?

Why would you think something that happens 'immediately' after a thing occurs takes place before something else that happens 'when' that same thing occurs?

 

As I read it:

 

- 'when' = simultaneous, at the same time

- 'immediately' = by necessity implies the event already occured

 

Without having the rulebook in front of me to see the full wording of each rule it's hard to answer that but the 'when' wording does not preclude something happening before something else. "When you get to your destination, get out of your car" does not preclude having a cigarette before getting out of the car, whereas "When you get to your destination, immediately get out of your car" does not allow for a crafty smoke.

[DarkGuard]

Certainly an FAQ on the subject would be nice.

[thade]

I think people see a race condition here; that is, people are frustrated that Unsaved Wound state procs both FNP and Force Weapon Activation and that it's not immediately clear which one cancels the other. Instead of trying to guess at order of ops here, can we consider them to run concurrently and see what their result may be?

 

Unsaved Wound state becomes true.

 

On Unsaved Wound, FNP_ok and FW_ok both proc.

 

FNP on 5+ means "I actually saved that wound!"

 

FW on activation means "That wound inflicts INSTANT DEATH!"

 

When I look at it that way, I start thinking order of operations maybe doesn't matter?

 

If FNP takes effect first, the wound is treated as saved, so the FW cannot activate.

 

If FW takes effect first, FNP still treats the wound as if it's saved, so the FW didn't deliver a wound (which otherwise would've inflicted Instant Death).

 

The wording of FNP does seem to wrap this up, no? In fact, given that, I'd let the player roll FNP before I even considered testing for FWs because why risk a perils?

 

EDIT: Clarification.

 

ADDENDUM: Leaving what I said above for posterity (embarrassment) but Seahawk right below me pointed out that - not only does order matter - but it's chosen by the active player. Meaning whose turn it is? Or who's swinging? If the latter, I think it's safe to say that the FW will always take precedence (because what active player would choose otherwise?)

[Seahawk]

As previously stated, both of these effects happen right after an unsaved wound is inflicted, and an unsaved wound is one that gets by all three saves. Page 9 says that the active player decides the order then.

[thade]

EDIT: Redacted.

 

I am a caffeine-lacking noob.

[Seahawk]

Exactly. Two effects, same time, active player decides. Not that difficult! :yes:

[thade]

Exactly. Two effects, same time, active player decides. Not that difficult! :yes:

:)