How are sisters fairing in 6th?

[Jacinda]

:lol:

*hugs*

 

No one around here likes to play Cityscape or just with lots of terrain that a good city battle takes. The guys at my old home town were all big Necromunda players so when we go back there for visits we always do an underhive battle.

[*Furyou Miko]

*hugs* Thanks...

 

I love a good Cityscape board. My Sisters usually dance pretty well, but on a cityscape board, they sing. All of a sudden all their disadvantages (range, vulnerability to heavy weapons, weakness to assaults) just... vanish into thin air. Repentia and Penitent Engines become the godly maidens of death they deserve to be and everything just works!

[Sume]

I never played Cityscape. What exactly is it?

[Jacinda]

It's Cityfight actually. I said it wrong.

It is played on a jammed packed table with lots of ruins and buildings separated by narrow streets.

 

Here's a pic to show what I mean.

http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac32/ralgorn/WIP%20PRe%20heresy%20BA/Bloodang028.jpg

 

There are some unique rules for Cityfight games. Squad coherency is 4"if they are all in the same building block. You always have LoS to anything within 6". There are no blast or templates used. Instead, blast weapons roll to hit like normal and cause d3 hits; misses don't scatter, they just miss. Large blast weapons cause d6 hits. Flamers do d6(I think) hits as long as one model in the target unit is within 8" If you have height advantage over your target they get -1 to cover and all cover is ignored if you are 8" higher then the intervening terrain that would grant cover.

 

In this setting jump troops are both godly for their mobility and being able to jump from roof to roof, and a liability since it is basically all dificult terrain so jump troops will be taking dangerous terrain check a lot!

[*Furyou Miko]

NM

[Sume]

Thank you Jacinda, and Furyou Miko. Sounds more like Necromanda but with the codexes. Sounds really fun.

[Inquisitor Fox]

I've always said the Inquisition armies (Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights) were a short ranged cityfight scenario force. Open field battles are for the Guard and the Marines. The Inquisition and it's associates has all been about short range, lots of terrain, hunting and scouring of heretics. Glad to see that other people's experiences match my own! It's amazing how much of a difference terrain can make to how an army functions. Too many people just use large open field battles and let those be the only things they base their experience on. Armies play totally differently in dense terrain and use a different style when doing so. If you haven't tried a table full of ruins and streets, it's definitely worth a game, even without the Cityfight / Cities of Death rules specifically.

[*Furyou Miko]

You do remember that calling Sisters an 'Inquisition Army' is my berserk button, right? *Glower*

[Inquisitor Fox]

I do remember you favor the Ecclesiarchy connections of the Sororitas while I am still quite fond of the Inquisitorial connections, yes :lol: If it helps, I can rephrase my statement to the "Inquisitorial/Ecclesiarchy forces" and have it be just as valid. I always see the Sisters as wearing two hats and walking a line that only a person pure of heart, purpose, and Faith can balance. The reason they can serve three masters (the Ecclesiarchy, the Inquisition, and the Emperor himself) is precisely because of their purity of purpose and Faith. A lesser being would falter and fail at having to have the perfect balance of duty and morality.

 

If anything, I see it as a compliment to the Sisters and their loyalty that they are asked to, and succeed at, doing so.

 

Then again it probably helps that my Inquisitors are Thorians and completely believe in the Emperor's divine ascension, so that tends to help their Ecclesiarchy dealings :)

 

EDIT: For the record, I've been making the same statement for the last decade or so when the armies involved were still called Daemon Hunters and Witch Hunters, and were billed as aspects of the Inquisition as well as the Ecclesiarchy. So for the sake of accurately quoting myself, I've just not changed how I reference them. As far as I can tell in the fluff it's still as accurate to call them an Inquisitorial force as an Ecclesiarchy force, it merely depends on what political group is in charge of the current purge of heretics in holy flame ;) So no offence meant, Miko!

[Gothical]

I'm glad my post sparked some discussion about urban warfare - I am really hoping that Cities of Death gets a 6th-ed revamp, it is a fun rules-set to play (though I guess the standard rules cover it quite well, if you have a board that mixes ruins and buildings together). My own army has always suffered on more open boards, chiefly due to the lack of any Exorcists. I am hoping that the new terrain density generation/placement might make my army more viable on a traditional board than the previous "roflstomping" it has received (which is, I believe, the appropriate internet term?).

 

I do miss the Inquisitorial elements - I have that limited-edition Inquisitor with Plasma Pistol, and I really want to use him and the Necromunda Arbites I had been fielding as Inquisitorial Storm Troopers! He doesn't quite cut it as a Confessor/Priest (particularly if I am trying to shoe-horn in both a Canoness and Saint Celestine), though I am well aware that opinion is very....divided...over the Sisters and the Inquisition. However, what I would love to see, after re-reading the Eisenhorn trilogy, are Witch Hunters. In my own imaginings, they would be nearly identical to Inquisitors and their Warbands/Battle Conclaves just under a different name (and with some of the old Codex: Witch Hunters wargear, such as Psyocculums and stuff like that) allowing people like me to field their Inquisitors (in disguise), whilst allowing those that want a purer Sister/Ecclesiarchy force to avoid aneurysms (and hopefully squeeze Arbites in there too).

 

Though I do wonder, what with the new crowbar-separation of the Inquisition and Sisters of Battle, what will the new (fabled) Plastic models look like if they haven't got Inquisitorial icons all over them? In an ideal world, I would enjoy a Codex that provided us with both a very solid pure-Sisters army (that doesn't rely on Mechanisation to work), with a heavy Ecclesiarchy presence if one wished (Confessors/Priests/Missionaries, Fraternis Militia, battle-servitor or Crusader shrine-guards), and a few Inquisitorial elements thrown in (Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor/Lord, Retinue, Storm Troopers) - and some background fully explaining that the Sisters work as all three roles: a potent military force in their own right defending the Imperium (a lot of focus here to make them their own masters [or should that be mistresses?]), spearheading Wars of Faith for the Ecclesiarchy (a lot of focus here to shed the image of a purely "defensive" force), and helping the Ordos root out heretics even from within Imperial organisations/forces (but less emphasis compared to the Witch Hunters codex). Hopefully that would cover everyone's interests well enough without any particular "faction" feeling side-lined.

[RookBartly]

I fig'd I'd toss this into this thread... I played 2000 pts Sisters of Battle vs 2000 pts of Chaos Marines. I wanta battle report this but it would be a bit short...

 

Sisters won Init

 

Turn 1: Sisters

- Moved forward, fired EVERYHITNG and only killed 2 models,

Turn 1: Chaos

- Charged forward and failed to get into charge range. Killed 1 Rhino, and 6 random sisters

 

Turn 2: Sisters

- Moved up and dismounted whole army. Fired EVERYTHING. Killed EVERYTHING except 1 Rhino, 2 Raptors, and 2 Chaos Maries.

Turn 2: Chaos

- Surrenred at begining of movment phase

 

 

 

I would say sisters are doing well in 3rd... God I love having a $#)^ TON of flamers!

[*Furyou Miko]

Though I do wonder, what with the new crowbar-separation of the Inquisition and Sisters of Battle, what will the new (fabled) Plastic models look like if they haven't got Inquisitorial icons all over them? In an ideal world, I would enjoy a Codex that provided us with both a very solid pure-Sisters army (that doesn't rely on Mechanisation to work), with a heavy Ecclesiarchy presence if one wished (Confessors/Priests/Missionaries, Frateris Militia, battle-servitor or Crusader shrine-guards), and a few Inquisitorial elements thrown in (Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor/Lord, Retinue, Storm Troopers) - and some background fully explaining that the Sisters work as all three roles: a potent military force in their own right defending the Imperium (a lot of focus here to make them their own masters [or should that be mistresses?]), spearheading Wars of Faith for the Ecclesiarchy (a lot of focus here to shed the image of a purely "defensive" force), and helping the Ordos root out heretics even from within Imperial organisations/forces (but less emphasis compared to the Witch Hunters codex). Hopefully that would cover everyone's interests well enough without any particular "faction" feeling side-lined.

 

It's hardly a "new crowbar-separation". Back when Sisters were first released, they had no ties to the Inquisition at all beyond being founded at about the same time as the Ordo Hereticus (To do the same job, no less). Then they were tacked on to the side of the Inquisition for the sake of a combined Witch Hunters codex.

 

The Sisters models we have now aren't covered in Inquisitorial iconography, though. They haven't really changed since their initial release in the '90s.

 

The problem is that the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition have very similar symbols - the Inquisition, of course, has the =][= symbol, while the Ecclesiarchy has the -(][)- symbol;

 

Inquisition: http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-snc4/41801_18057176547_7014911_n.jpg Ecclesiarchy: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/b/bf/Adeptus_Ministorum_Symbol.jpg/100px-Adeptus_Ministorum_Symbol.jpg

 

What I'd like is to replace the Crusaders with something that makes more sense - as it stands, there's NO fluff to support them. The models have Ecclesiarchy symbols on their shields, making it look like they're officially sanctioned church troops... but they're also NOT battle sisters, and appear to be male and have serious, military-style training (WS4, power weapons, storm shields, and Ld8!). So... what are they? Obviously, they're just inherited from the Inquisitor choice that Confessors replaced, and maybe a little bit of the old heretic "Personal Guard" unit that was available to the Battle Sister Adversaries list.

[Inquisitor Fox]

To some extent all the Imperial organizations have similar iconography, but I agree, the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy have particularly similar symbols (ironic really since they're often in disagreement).

 

There are some ties beyond just Codex: Witch Hunters, though they're definitely harder to find and less obvious. I know there's a Citadel Journal 49 from 2002 that has an Ordo Hereticus Strike Force with an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor leading Sororitas in Drop Pods (kind of a cool list really). I'm not sure about the old Codex: Sisters of Battle or the Codex Imperiallis (I'll check on those over the next few days, right now my 3 year old is in that room sleeping) but I'll have to reference them. I think there's an entry on a sidebar in the old 2nd edition Codex, I seem to recall that coming up somewhere. The Sisters are of course referenced in the Black Library book/encyclopedia of the Inquisition, but that was post Codex: Witch Hunters so it doesn't surprise me. It'll be the references in the older books that will be the most enlightening. I'll check soon as I can.

 

There were ties, but it wasn't majorly focused on until Codex: Witch Hunters.

 

I believe the Crusaders are essentially fluffed as bodyguards for the priests in the Ecclesiarchy. Since it's a personal bodyguard and not standing troops it bypasses the Decree Passive. Arco-flagellants are likewise not considered a standing force so they're okay. Death Cultists are drawn from blood cults worshipping the Emperor so they also sorta fit. Some of the things are less obvious and not spelled out in many places, but in GW's effort to expand upon the Ecclesiarchy it doesn't surprise me that they're roping some things in to build more of an army list.

[*Furyou Miko]

Personally I still like the idea of Sisters with storm shields and bolters... ^^;

[Gothical]

It's hardly a "new crowbar-separation". Back when Sisters were first released, they had no ties to the Inquisition at all beyond being founded at about the same time as the Ordo Hereticus (To do the same job, no less). Then they were tacked on to the side of the Inquisition for the sake of a combined Witch Hunters codex.

 

Ah, you see I only have as far back as the 3rd Edition rulebook, which I cannot check as it's half the country away, but I believe had notes about working closely with the Inquisition. Then we had Codex: Witch Hunters, which featured a lot of Inquisitorial content.

 

The Sisters models we have now aren't covered in Inquisitorial iconography, though. They haven't really changed since their initial release in the '90s. The problem is that the Ecclesiarchy and the Inquisition have very similar symbols - the Inquisition, of course, has the =][= symbol, while the Ecclesiarchy has the -(][)- symbol

 

Ah, I'd always thought that the winged-I on the left shoulder-plate and the skulled-I on the rosary were Inquisitorial symbols, though I see now that the rosary one, at least, is closer to the Ecclesiarchy symbol than the Inquisitorial one.

 

What I'd like is to replace the Crusaders with something that makes more sense - as it stands, there's NO fluff to support them. The models have Ecclesiarchy symbols on their shields, making it look like they're officially sanctioned church troops... but they're also NOT battle sisters, and appear to be male and have serious, military-style training (WS4, power weapons, storm shields, and Ld8!). So... what are they? Obviously, they're just inherited from the Inquisitor choice that Confessors replaced, and maybe a little bit of the old heretic "Personal Guard" unit that was available to the Battle Sister Adversaries list.

 

I don't know, they could be worked in relatively well, as Inquisitor NicolePyykkonen said, and to be honest I'd rather see some variation for Priestly bodyguards than being pure-Sisters 100% of the time (if only for the sake of getting a few more choices on the army list), because Sisters seem to be more of a general Ecclesiastical guard rather than personal bodyguards (for example Vikktor LaHain, in Faith and Fire, has his own bodyguard even though technically the Sororitas present should be fulfilling the role). If we get a book that expands on the Ecclesiarchy itself then I think having non-Sororitas guards could work (I also believe there are many references in a variety of books to battle-servitors [as in Ogryn-sized beasts] at various temples and holy sites. Perhaps it is because I also play the Imperial Guard, but I'd like to see a pure-Eccelsiarchy army of Confessors, Fraternis Militia, Servitors, Arco-Flagellants, Death-Cults and "Crusaders" be do-able, even if it wasn't very good without the Sororitas in there (i.e. you could make a purely "penal" Guard list with a Commissar Lord, Psyker Battle Squads and Penal Legion troops, but it would be a bit rubbish without proper "Guard" elements present); as well as a strong pure-Sisters army.

 

Generally, I think we as a playerbase/army faction are in quite an interesting position. With the retcons to the Inquisitorial aspects via Codex: Grey Knights and Codex: Sisters of Battle (WD) we no longer have that much background, and as a model range we have a fairly limited collection compared to virtually every other army out there, so Games Workshop could really take the army in any direction - certainly, for someone who only got into the Sisters with Codex: Witch Hunters (like myself) it is a relatively blank slate, and I have found it very difficult to locate much background from the earlier editions of the game.

[*Furyou Miko]

I can send you a pdf of the second edition codex, if you'd like. It's out of print and obsolete rules wise, so I think it should be OK legally.

 

It details the full history of the Adepta Sororitas and the Ecclesiarchy from the times of her Horus Heresy forward.

[Azekai]

White Dwarf magazine issue 292 says in black and white that the Adepta Sororitas are the militant wing of the Witch Hunters. Not sure why this is such a huge deal. All the ordos need their fighting forces- Ordo Xenos has their Deathwatch, Malleus the GKs, and Hereticus the Sisters. It only makes sense.

[Jacinda]

Can you tell me where that is? Im finding tons of references to the Eccesiarchy but nothing to Witch Hunters, Inqusition of Ordos Hereticus.

 

"The Sisters of Battle are the army of the Ecclesiarchy." p. 90

 

"Renamed the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas they became true defenders of the faith and a reminder of the power of the Ecclesiarchy." p. 92

 

"By late M36, the Sisters of Battle had become synonymous with the power of the Ecclesiarchy," p. 92

 

"The Orders Minoris vary in size, and though some only number as few as a hundred or so Battle Sisters, each is an elite militay force dedicated to destroying the Eccesiarchy's enemies." p. 92

 

"Countleses enemies fell as the armies of the Adepta Sororitas brought the divine judgement of the Ecclesiarch to the darkest corners of the galaxy, and to this day the Sisters of Battle have stood as faithful and loyal defenders of the Ecclesiarchy, and the lmperium." p. 92

 

I did find this mention of a Witch-cult:

"When Katherine was murdered by the Witch-cult of Mnestteus, her Order was renamed the Order of Our Martyred Lady, so deeply did her sisters mourn her loss."

[Azekai]

I will check it when I get home. It is there. Give me about 6 hours.

[*Furyou Miko]

White Dwarf magazine issue 292 says in black and white that the Adepta Sororitas are the militant wing of the Witch Hunters. Not sure why this is such a huge deal. All the ordos need their fighting forces- Ordo Xenos has their Deathwatch, Malleus the GKs, and Hereticus the Sisters. It only makes sense.

 

lol... do you have any idea just how many Ordos there are of the Inquisition? Saying that every ordo has its own chamber militant is laughable.

 

There are ordos containing 20 members solely dedicated to interpreting single artifacts.

[Azekai]

My apologies, it was stated that the Sisters were the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus in WH 290, Pg. 94, US edition.

There are a lot of ordos, but that term was tossed around freely before the three main Orders of the inquisition were established. The three broad wings of the inquisition are referred to as the Ordos Hereticus, Malleus and Xenos. And each has its own chamber militant, regardless of the subdivisions within each Ordos.

There are smaller ordos, such as the ordos sepulturum, but these organizations are much smaller and have little in common with the larger Ordos.

 

The difference between major and minor ordos is outlined in the BnC's own librarium.

[Jacinda]

Silly me. I should have looked at the issue number. I was looking in 379 and 380 which has the current codex. I may have bought a total of 5 White Dwarf magazines in the past 15 years and that is a very generous estimate. The only ones I ever kept were the two with the 5th edition Sisters of Battle codex.

 

During the Witch Hunter days, the Adepta Sororitas were associated with the Inquisition, true. The current codex has retconed them back with the Ecclesiarchy like they were originally.

[Azekai]

I see- interesting. All of my WD issues are from 280-300 . . . they have a lot of SoB stuff in there.

I did not realize how much the rules update changed the fluff. Apparently the Hereticus makes use of the GKs now? How curious.

 

Edit: Wait, wait, wait, so the Convocation of the Nephilim never happened? The great pact that joined the Ordo Hereticus and the Sisters? That is a shame- the name alone is too awesome not to use.

[Jacinda]

Welcome to retcon -- retroactive continuity. Wait until M. W. writes the next codex and the Daughters of the Emperor become the actual daughters of the Emperor. :lol:

[*Furyou Miko]

No, the Convocation happened. They just never said "OK, the Daughters work for the Inquisition now."

 

The Convocation of the Nephilim is where the Adepta Sororitas were first formed, after all.

 

Also, Jaci, don't forget the part where Alicia Dominica was implanted with Ultramarines gene seed and is the mother of an entire Chapter as a result.