Brother Landrain Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 Did anyone else notice that the DA Company Veteran Squad is missing from the BGB. There is a Veteran listed under the Space Marine list, but no Company Veteran in the DA list. I am thinking that if the Company Veterans do stay in the new codex, they will become In(ch) which would make them pretty usefull. Anyone else have thoughts on why they are missing? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpnightsend Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I agree with you, I'm betting they're just getting removed. They aren't popular or used often. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3125893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I don't think what you are seeing is really a listing of units so much as a listing of stat lines. I'm not staring at my book right now, but I'm thinking that's what is going on. I don't recall a specific differentiation between Sternguard and Vanguard Vets on the list. IIRC, the DA Company Vets have the same stat line as all other PA vets, so they are just lumped into the Veteran stat line. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3125894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 I don't think what you are seeing is really a listing of units so much as a listing of stat lines. [...] the DA Company Vets have the same stat line as all other PA vets, so they are just lumped into the Veteran stat line. Agreed, exactly this. And the same goes for DA Command squad members too who also use the SM Veterans entry. The reason that only the [DA] Veteran Sergeant is specifically listed is that his stats have changed now that he has become a (ch) [character]. Cheers I Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3125923 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted July 18, 2012 Share Posted July 18, 2012 The unit/stat summary lists the Profiles based on the name they're listed under in the army list (for the most part), and for DA Company Veterans and DA Command squads thats Veteran. Hence there not being a seperate entry for Company Veterans under the DA list (to avoid repetition). Edit - I don't have my book with me so I can't check, but doesn't the list also omit Deathwing? :D They're covered by the Terminator, Terminator Sergeant entries under the Space Marine list. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3125936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillyfish Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I don't have my book with me either MD, but I believe you're right. I don't recall seeing Deathwing tats in there either. I think they just concentrated on some of the units with differences to the norm or which had a few changes to them - Ravenwing are the most obvious, but I believe Interrogator Chaplains were in there too? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3126245 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I don't have my book with me either MD, but I believe you're right. I don't recall seeing Deathwing tats in there either. I think they just concentrated on some of the units with differences to the norm or which had a few changes to them - Ravenwing are the most obvious, but I believe Interrogator Chaplains were in there too? I just checked, no Deathwing either. Seems I was right, the profiles are listed under the name they have in the army list. In the DA army list Company Veterans are listed as Veterans (the same as both types of Veterans in C:SM and so they're omitted), Deathwing are listed as Terminators and Terminator Sergeant (as are C:SM Terminators and so they're omitted), but Company Masters, Interrogator-Chaplains, Ravenwing Bikers, Ravenwing Sergeants and Veteran Sergeants (C:SM has Space Marine Sergeants) are unique to C:DA and so are included. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3126270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajax Tlamunus Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Or? We're not going to have Deathwing Terminators in the new codex! OMG! Oh noes! Everybody panic! Oh, sorry, I thought I was a Bell of Lost Souls commentor for a moment there. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3126410 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Dont think they were on the previous rulebook either. I dont think we should take this as a hint for anything, the BRB covers the basics as an intro or somesuch. Does it have the Sanquinary Honor guard for example? Or Wolfguard terminators? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3126861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 The main reason I am asking is, what people think about the possibility of the unit becoming In(ch) The stat lines are pretty much the same among 90% of all marines anyways. That said, since we do not have scouts listed, I guess we now have ws/bs 3 scouts... Since they can all have a unique wargear alottment similar to WolfGuard, Paladin, and Ork Nobz, being a unit of In(ch) is very usefull as well as opening up different tactical possibilities. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3127547 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I doubt that Company Veterans will all just instantly become independent characters (what In(ch) means, IIRC). I'm personally done speculating or worrying about what's going to be in the next Codex based on anything that's not a hard fact coming out of GW, as there is no point. While some rumors may get things right, so far as I know, there's 0 indication as to just what units will or will not be in the next Codex. Hopefully they are all amazing to the point where everyone has a real problem deciding on just what units to take because they are all so amazing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3127550 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 Actually, In(ch) does not mean independant character. It means Infantry Character... which is rather different. Infantry Characters cannot normally join/leave squads. They also roll a 4+ on LoS! While Independant Characters roll a 2+. Also Independant Character is a special rule that allows several other benfits, and must be listed in the models special rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3127556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Ah, well, there you go, I didn't remember correctly. I'm not sure they'd make an entire squad like that. Seems a tad silly to me for everyone to always be scrambling to take bullets for everyone else in the squad, and it would be a strange set up, seeing as Sternguard, Vanguard and Terminaors aren't like that, not that I remember. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3127587 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajax Tlamunus Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Ah, well, there you go, I didn't remember correctly. I'm not sure they'd make an entire squad like that. Seems a tad silly to me for everyone to always be scrambling to take bullets for everyone else in the squad, and it would be a strange set up, seeing as Sternguard, Vanguard and Terminaors aren't like that, not that I remember. You haven't faced Draigo and his Paladin squad, or a pack of Nob Bikers yet, have you? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3127743 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 No, I haven't, but it still seems silly. Also, Company Vets don't even equate to Deathwing, who don't even equate to Paladins. Paladins I can understand as they are almost described as just lower than Masters, etc, the Nob Bikers, not so much. I stand by my statement that Sternguard, Vanguard and Terminators are not squads of Infantry Characters though, so Company Vets probably won't be either (and shouldn't be, IMO). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3127770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajax Tlamunus Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Bryan, I don't disagree with you at all... just agreeing with you that the silliness can happen. In a local shop, I watched an Apocalypse game where close to 3,000 points of mixed Tau, Tyranids, and Eldar took three turns to kill of Draigo's Command Squad of Paladins. Now, to be fair, the Paladin Posse was well north of 1,000 points by itself (which deserves to be hard to kill, I don't care who you are) and the Tau and Eldar were mostly "backfield" units that hadn't been expected to have to deal with anything like this... but watching eleven guys trip ovr themselves to dive in front of each other catching bullets grew rather irksome. This was an extreme case, well past the part of the bellcurve we would consider normal play... the size of the unit, the matchup against the enemy forces, the borderline bad sportsmanship of the Grey Knights player who admidted he designed this unit to "screw around" with the Look Out Sir rule (although, all the regular players in the club seemed fine with it and had a good time. So, clearly, YMMV.)... Back on topic, I suspect that if Company Veterans make it into the next codex, they'll be more akin to Sternguard Veterans than anything in our current codex. Although, if GW were to tap me to write it, I'd have them be a unit more-or-less identical to what we have now, but add the option to "farm them out" to lead other squads, in a manner similar to Space Wolves and their Wolf Guard. It'd be a great explaination as to why our squads have some robed members, and reinforce the "wheels within wheels" nature of the Unforgiven's complex hierarchy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3127780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadDoc Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 The main reason I am asking is, what people think about the possibility of the unit becoming In(ch) The possibility/probability of that - 0%. Company Veterans are just a squad of DA specific Space Marine Veterans, with their own set of options, and as Space Veterans they are In not In(ch). Company Veterans aren't Paladins (the only unit that exists solely as members of a squad that has In(ch)) or even really comparable to them. The stat lines are pretty much the same among 90% of all marines anyways.That said, since we do not have scouts listed, I guess we now have ws/bs 3 scouts... Say what? ;) While our scouts should be on par/equivalent statwise with C:SM/C:BA/etc Scouts, its entirely besides the point, Codex stats trump rulebook summary and always have. Thats such a non-issue that even mentioning it beggars belief. :no: Since they can all have a unique wargear alottment similar to WolfGuard, Paladin, and Ork Nobz, being a unit of In(ch) is very usefull as well as opening up different tactical possibilities. Thats quite some reaching there. Wargear doesn't mean diddly, if it did there'd be several other units that were listed as In(ch) (edit- or In, J(ch), Bk(ch), etc.), which there aren't. Paladins are the only one of those three you listed that exist solely as a squad, both Nobs and Wolf Guard appear as unit leaders in their respective lists, hence them being In(ch). If all Nobs were supposed to be In(ch) then why aren't Meganobs In(ch)? Meganobs are even more exalted Nobs (given the big shiney armour they wear) and yet they're not In(ch)... While I appreciate that some people want to squeeze everything they can out of even the smallest inconsistancy, or imagined inconsistancy, they think they've found, there isn't one here. Veterans (and by extension Company Veterans) are In not In(ch), thats the sort of major change that would have made the Codex FAQ if it were the case (which it didn't, and so isn't). Whether Company Veterans will even be in the next DA Codex and, if they are, whether they'll be In or In(ch) isn't really something we can realistically guess at based on the summary list in the back of the rulebook. - *Warning* The following is my opinion based completely on personal interpretation - For me, if Sanguinary Guard, Meganobs and the like aren't In(ch), then there is no way Company Veterans should be (especially not based on them having slightly broader access to wargear than C:SM Veterans). As for what I'd like to happen - Company Veterans are nixed and don't make the new Codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3127980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin_eX Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I doubt they will be dropping veterans in the next codex. They will most like see changes but I am doubting removal. I don't think we can use the appendices at the back of the book to gauge the content of the next codex. That isn't the purpose of the appendices after all. Especially after we got that leak of the boxed set, if the appendices were prophetic then there would be 2A Ravenwing and WS6 Masters back there as well. But the appendices are just a current listing of stat lines for reference and nothing more. Once codices start getting redone those appendices will have served their purpose and become obsolete. As for units of characters I have a feeling that after what we have heard from the recent interviews (was it GD Open? I can't remember right now) that I doubt we will see many units of characters in the game. It is sounding like squads of nobz, vets, paladins and the like will be getting some kind of switch so that only one model can be considered a character. I am personally hoping these rumours are true because while wound allocation is pretty simple abuse from a lot of 'Look Out Sir' rolls could get painful. So here's hoping they make the simple fix (signs point to yes here, but who knows). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3128071 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajax Tlamunus Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I'll go one step further and say that I think the appendices are useful even after the codices are released, even if they are wrong! The point of the listing stats in an appendex is to provide a quick reference during gameplay, so that you can look something up and get back to the game. If the appendix let's you do this, it has done its job. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3128102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezial Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 I personally don't have a preference how they're classified as long as they're good. I'm really tired of getting little to no use out of my Green armor Dark Angels. This chapter is supposed to be pretty hardcore and they were outclassed a long time ago by their 'colleagues.' I won't be truly happy with the new 'dex unless it goes toe to toe with Blood Angels or Space Wolves for sheer number of special rules and characters. That includes after both of those codices get updates. Both of those books stayed pretty competitive with each other even though they released at different times and I believe ours should too. So here's to the Company Vets being all they can be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3128113 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajax Tlamunus Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Rezial, you may want to steel yourself for a dissapointment. I have no inside track on the matter, but over in WHFB all of the 8th Edition Army Books to date have be universally excellent but have seen a remarkable downturn in "sheer number of special rules and characters" compared to the books of the previous era. The balance has been incredible, but the emphasis has been more on unit type, basic stats, and clever use of USRs and army list components... not raw power. The two most telling examples here are Vampire Countsmoving from "OMG! Teh broken!" to "Strong but has Exploitable Weakness" and the Tomb Kings from "Hahaha! No, really what army do you play?" to "Exploitable Weakness but Solid Strengths." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3128122 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezial Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 That would be ok with me in the end as long as they quickly release a much downplayed Codex: Blood Angels. Space Wolves too, but I actually like them so less haste would be required to suit me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3128174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleax Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Hi. That would be ok with me in the end as long as they quickly release a much downplayed Codex: Blood Angels. Space Wolves too, but I actually like them so less haste would be required to suit me. As I see it Blood Angels are meant to be op because Sanguinius died to Horus for nothing in return, a kind of karma-back-power, and Space Wolves are just the favored sons. So Dark Angels players have to win with tactic, not with a power codex, which is still possible because Dark Angels are (you are) meant to be tacticians. :cuss As for the topic, everything was covered, I might just add that Dark Angel veterans are a plus-free-of-charge for DA anyway, they are in the codex yet, good, they are not in it anymore, also good, as DA veterans are meant to wear TDA only. Yup, "Company veterans" are not "1st company" veterans, but you got the point, or mine at least. Cheers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3128213 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Arent the appendixes of the rulebook there to provide a quick quide and an illustration or rules for an introductory game at most? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3128221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezial Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Hi. As I see it Blood Angels are meant to be op because Sanguinius died to Horus for nothing in return, a kind of karma-back-power, and Space Wolves are just the favored sons. So Dark Angels players have to win with tactic, not with a power codex, which is still possible because Dark Angels are (you are) meant to be tacticians. :rolleyes: Ha! Laughable at best. Analogy: You guys follow Jesus, here have an M-16 and some Kevlar. You guys over here follow Mohammed, here's an AK-47 and a flak jacket. Hmmm. You last guys follow Buddha, so here's a .38 Revolver and a pattern to sew up a quilted vest. Sure, it's the picture of balance. Lion El' Jonson is an equal match for Leman Russ or Sanguinius in battle, it is stated in several ways in the fluff. There's no reason DA can't have Heroes and abilities on par with those chapters. DA Vets should be a one stop shop for the same features given to either Vanguard or Sternguard according to what you wish to build them as. They should certainly not be weaker or more expensive at assault than any standard chapter, especially while favoring a CC weapon like the sword. Simple. Previous codex doesn't work that way but is of course older than C: SM. If they were fist company they would be Deathwing already so no one would argue that but there are most definitely Veterans outside the first company. The appendices in the main book seem all well and good and there has already been a very good explanation of why it seems to appear the way it does. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256895-da-missing-unit-in-bgb/#findComment-3128236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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