Justicar Thawn?

[Gentlemanloser]

I still see that there's no way round the RAW of the unit being a single psyker and able to use only a single power.

 

Hopefully we'll get an updated FAQ.

[Inquisitor Fox]

As far as I can tell, I agree with Boreas. The unit gets one power a turn (either hammerhand or force weapons), and Thawn gets two. This could result in the following combinations:

 

Thawn goes for hammerhand and his own force weapon (his type is character), the unit goes for hammerhand. This results in a +2S, Thawn's weapon is a force weapon.

 

Thawn goes for hammerhand and his own force weapon (his type is character), the unit goes for force weapons. This results in a +1S, Thawn's weapon is a force weapon as are the units.

 

Once he dies and is a unit by himself (which would consist of a single model as he's not an independant character), the Terminator squad uses their 1 power a turn as per normal, with perils and wounds going to a random model as per Brotherhood of Psykers, where Thawn just functions as a 1w model with a psychic mastery level of 2.

 

That's what makes sense to me reading the rule(s) in question. Then again, I am not GW :o

 

edit: I'm also very tempted to work Thawn into my army list just because he's well... awesome... :) The cinematic style lists I run would suit him as well.

[Gentlemanloser]

So INP, you'd rule the Thawn is not part of his unit?

[Inquisitor Fox]

He's a part of his unit. He is also a psyker independant of being part of the Brotherhood of Psykers rule. It's much more clear after he's died once and is a unit by himself.. but.. it's similar to what we had last edition with an Inquisitor being treated as an upgrade to their retinue in combat, but still being a character. It would be nice with a more detailed explaination but this is GW we're talking about. Functionality wise it's just like Draigo, or a Brotherhood Captain, or Grand Master, or Librarian, or Tech-Marine joined a unit and they were all using powers, except Thawn can't chose to leave on his own. Brotherhood of Psykers still works as the unit now just functions with perils going to a random member of the unit since Thawn is doing his own thing. Note I don't believe Thawn would benefit from the unit activating it's force weapons, but he would get hammerhand (due to how hammerhand works).

 

So I consider him a character involuntarily attached to the unit that doesn't get to chose when he leaves :) Kinda...

 

edit: I think the big thing as far as powers is concerned, is that his entry specifically does not have Brotherhood of Psykers in it. He operates as a Psyker (Mastery Level 2). This tells us he is not a part of the unit for Brotherhood of Psykers. I see him as a character that does not get to chose to leave the unit it's attached to. Ironically this contradicts my opinion he should get psybolt ammunition if his squad is upgraded with it before the game :) I know, it's wishy washy... oh well :o

[Gentlemanloser]

So he's part of the Unit, that's counted as a single psyker that can only cast 1 power per turn. :o

 

We should also not that BoP never talks about models with the BoP rule, but units as a whole. :) (Edit ICs can skirt this as they are mentioned in BoP and have thier own rules for joining units/unit rules, but Thawn isn't an IC and isn't covered by thier rules).

 

While he is a 'character', he's a normal part of the unit, just as a Justicar or Keeper is.

[Inquisitor Fox]

No, because he is not part of Brotherhood of Psyker :o He does not have that rule, ergo it is the exact same as if a Brother-Captain joined the unit or a Librarian joined the unit. Brotherhood of Psykers only binds units with that rule in their profile. :)

 

edit: specifically re-read Brotherhood of Psykers on page 21. It does not mention anything about how it functions if the unit is joined by a character, independant or otherwise. The only time a character is mentioned in the rule is that a Grey Knight unit can never use the Leadership value of an independant character for Psychic tests. He functions just as if the unit were joined by a Librarian for psychic powers, in that his powers are seperate and distinct of those of the unit as he is not part of the Brotherhood of Pyskers rule.

[boreas]

So he's part of the Unit, that's counted as a single psyker that can only cast 1 power per turn. :(

 

We should also not that BoP never talks about models with the BoP rule, but units as a whole. :( (Edit ICs can skirt this as they are mentioned in BoP and have thier own rules for joining units/unit rules, but Thawn isn't an IC and isn't covered by thier rules).

 

While he is a 'character', he's a normal part of the unit, just as a Justicar or Keeper is.

 

What I don't understand is how you can actually read that the unit being a psyker AND Thawn being a psyker are mutually exclusive.... Also, the reference to ICs in BoP is only regarding which Ld to use, NOT the number of powers (otherwise, IC inside a BoP unit could not cast either, according to your logic).

 

Ok, let's read on to:

 

Psyker mastery levels:

 

Codex: Grey Knights uses mastery levels, shown in brackets after the psyker special rule, to determine how many psychic power a character can use each turn. For each mastery level a character has, he can use one psychic power per turn.

 

Is Thawn a character? YES.

 

What's his mastery level? TWO

 

How many psychic power can he use per turn? Two.

 

 

 

See, no mention of independent characters... You're actually nitpicking here. RAW is clear: the unit is a single psyker. They can cast one power. Thawn (which is part of but is NOT the unit, same as an IC) is a character with a mastery level. He can cast two powers. Moreover, RAI is pretty clear: to give him more powers than just a regular GKT unit.

 

Phil

[Gentlemanloser]

which is part of but is NOT the unit, same as an IC

 

It's not the same, it can't be. ICs have seperate rules and Thawn isn't an IC.

 

There's no way he can be part of the unit (that's a single psyker that can only cast 1 power) and *not* be part of the unit.

 

It's just not in the rules.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Let's look at it this way. Would you agree that a special rule only applies to said models with that special rule on their profile? So since the regular "redshirt" members of the unit have Brotherhood of Psykers, they follow the Brotherhood of Psykers rule. Thawn has the Psychic Mastery (Level 2) on his profile, so he follows the rules for that. Thawn expressly does NOT follow the rules for Brotherhood of Psykers as he does not have that rule on his profile. Would you argue that a Grand Master or Librarian joined to a unit is now bound by Brotherhood of Psykers even though it's not on their profile? They too are "part of the unit" but are "not part of the unit".

 

It is an identical situation for a non-Thawn unit of Terminators with Brotherhood of Psykers being joined by a Librarian (Psychic Mastery level 2).

 

For purposes of generating and using Psychic Powers Thawn is a character model, with powers seperate and distinct from the group of models functioning as one unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers rule.

 

For puposes of movement, leadership tests to run away, etc, Thawn is part of the unit, just as if the unit had been joined by an independant character. Unlike true independant characters Thawn cannot decide to leave the unit, as his rule specifies when exactly that occurs.

[Gentlemanloser]

No, the BoP rule applies to the entire *unit*. :(

 

The only reason it doesn't apply to any IC that's attached themselves tot he unit is due to the BRB rules on IC and Special Rules;

 

Page 39;

When an Independant Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself <snip stubborn example <snip>, the units special rules are not conferred upon the Independant Character

 

That's why BoP doesn't apply to GKGM/Libbies that join units.

 

Sadly, Thawn *isn't* an IC, so these rules do no apply to him.

 

He's part of a Unit with BoP, and BoP effects the entire unit. There is *nothing* in the rules to stop this.

[Inquisitor Fox]

Brotherhood of Psykers applies to those models with Brotherhood of Psykers in their unit entry. Justicar Thawn does not have Brotherhood of Psykers in his unit entry. He has Fearless, I Shall Not Yield, and Psyker (Mastery Level 2). Says so right on page 91. So Brotherhood of Psykers only applies to the models with it in their entry, which are the rest of the Terminators, not Thawn.

 

That stoops the BoP affecting the entire unit. Thawn specifically does not have that rule on his profile. Similarly, And They Shall Know No Fear does not apply to him (well it does since the unit he is with has at least one model with the rule per page 21, but he doesn't have the rule himself), but Fearless does.

 

A model cannot be affected by a special rule that they do not have, unless the rule itself specifies that it affects all models joined to the unit or some variation. Brotherhood of Psykers does not specify that it applies to character models joined to the unit as per page 21, so it doesn't affect Thawn.

 

edit: as we are now going around in circles, I'll not say more about it save that a clarification from GW would be nice, but I don't think it's necessary.

[Gentlemanloser]

No it doesn't INP.

 

BoP applies to a *unit*. Regardless of who or how many, mini's in that unit have the BoP rule.

 

Units of Grey Knights

 

A Grey Knight Unit

 

A Grey Knit Unit

 

If the Grey Knight unit

 

*Never* once does the rule mention anything about minis with the BoP rule.

 

Edit: Thawn doesn't 'join' the unit. He is a part of it. Integral. He is not an IC, and doesn't use the ICs rules.

 

But I'll agree to stop, as we're going round in circles.

 

RAW is solid here, it's the RAI that needs a FAQ. ;)

[Inquisitor Fox]

... ... ... so suddenly we can apply rules to units that don't have that rule on their profile? Sweet... I'll give relentless and feel no pain to everything please ;)

 

Let us look again at this statement on page 21:

 

"The Grey Knights army uses a number of special rules that are common to several units, as denoted in the unit entries."

 

The key words here are "as denoted in the unit entries." Otherwise I could claim my Henchmen Warband, being a member of the Grey Knights Army, has access to Brotherhood of Psykers, Preferred Enemy (Daemons) and And They Shall Know No Fear because those are special armywide rules on page 21. But that's not how it works. A unit only has access to the rules listed in it's unit entry. Thawn does not have Brotherhood of Psykers in his unit entry, so he is not affected by it.

 

Now I'm really done ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

It's in Thawns unit's unit entry...

 

You're clutching now INP! ;)

 

I thought we'd agreed to leave this here! ;)

[Inquisitor Fox]

I wrote that one before seeing your edit ;)

 

Anyway.. um.. Thawn is awesome and long live the sensei and Illuminati? ;)

 

Seriously though now... I'm starting to rework my armylist simply to see if I can squeeze him in it somewhere ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

I wanted to use him, to have a Squad of Fearless GKT to go with Fearless Puris.

 

But then I realised he cost too much, and I'd be better off allying in Belial and some DW if I wanted Fearless Terminator Troops. ;)

 

Bring back the Sensei!!! ;)

[boreas]

which is part of but is NOT the unit, same as an IC

 

There's no way he can be part of the unit (that's a single psyker that can only cast 1 power) and *not* be part of the unit.

 

No... The Quarterback is part of the team. The Quarterback is not the team. Simple english ;) The team won the Championshio. It's a champion team. The Quarterback won "best quarterback". The Quarterback is also a champion player. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

Even is the Unit is a single psyker, PARTS of that unit can also be psykers. So, the unit is a psyker that can cast a power. Thawn is ALSO a psyker that can cast two powers.

 

You're actually denying that the whole:

 

Psyker mastery levels:

 

Codex: Grey Knights uses mastery levels, shown in brackets after the psyker special rule, to determine how many psychic power a character can use each turn. For each mastery level a character has, he can use one psychic power per turn.

 

exist. No IC. No unless in a BoP unit.

 

 

WH40k rules are permissive, as you've often noted. BoP Permit the unit to cast as a single psyker. Nothing more, but nothing LESS (ie, it's doesn't deprive any psyker inside the unit from casting). There is no "only one", "just one", etc. PML PERMITS Thawn to use psychic powers, no matter where he is on the table (no restriction here either). RAW and RAI here.

 

Phil

[spartan249]

Gentlemanloser, I really can't see how you are reaching your conclusions about thawn's abilities as a psyker. For the record, I'm siding with INP on this issue. I think you are overextending the reach of BoP.

[Chairman_woo]

for what its worth I totally see where Gentlemanloser is comming from, your saying that its the BOP rule that prohibits a GK unit from casting more than once right? GKT squad with Thawn is a unit, therefore unit gets 1 power a turn....

 

However having just read the rule, I see nothing other than the assumption that Thawn simply would count ONLY as another member of a BOP squad. i.e. it seems ambiguous at best. Even if we assume Thawn is indeed a member of the unit for BOP purposes, all that seems to mean is that you could use his LD for the units psytest in addition to Thawns own powers.

 

i.e. Thawns powers are not cast by the squad, they have nothing to do with BOP as he is a mastery 2 psyker himself. At no stage do you appear to be doing anything other than casting powers on Thawn himself, separately from any BOP tests and limitations.

 

BOP is clear, 1 power per squad per turn. Thawn is not casting with BOP he is casting as a mastery 2 psyker, BOP limits the powers the squad itself can cast not necessarily Thawn, who whilst part of the unit has a rule that facilitates him casting two powers a turn all by himself using a completely different special rule. Thawn casting his own powers does not appear to have any effect/interaction with BOP other than HH stacking within a unit.

 

Yes a BOP unit can cast one power a turn, but Thawn is not a BOP unit, he is an undividual within a BOP unit that has rules for casting two powers himself. At no point can I see anything that demands Thawns powers be subject to BOP, it is not the unit itself casting. Remember the rule says "A grey knight UNIT can cast one power a turn", Thawn is not a unit he is a man, when he casts it is not the unit casting it is Thawn (and visa versa). Hence boreas's example with the quaterback, he is a member of the team but he himself is not the team.

 

However BOP does say you use the UNIT's justicar leadership for the BOP psytest, a criterion Thawn does clearly fill (he is still a justicar an fulfills all stated requirements in the rule!). As such I would be inclined to suggest that not only do Thawns two powers go off separately (not being cast by a unit with BOP and as such not affected by it), but that the squad itself can still use his LD for their own psytest. Nothing in the wording of that rule requires him to have the BOP rule, merely the stipulation that this does not work for joined IC's (of which Thawn is not one).

 

In practice Thawn appears to let you stack HH twice (but leaving Thawn to activate his own FW), or stack HH once with the unit activating its FW's (Thawn activating his own again), whilst making his unit fearless and still providing LD 9 for the squads own psytests as per any Justicar. He's still jolly expensive but hardly a lead weight!

 

Ascendere Illuminatus, Novus ordo Seclorum! Vivat!

[Cmdr Shepard]

I don't know if it was mentioned before but have you ever considered how his Level 2 Mastery will still apply to deny the with rolls?

 

Since he is a character inside the squad and has a level 2 master he will nullify most of the psychic powers on 4+ (assuming the enemy psyker is level 1 one, of course :) )

 

He will also made the squad fearless: in 6th edition you only need a single fearless model for the entire unit to benefit.

Not to mention that if he dies you have a good chance to not lose a model at all and if you fail a roll you try again on the next turn.

 

He will become a single model unit but id your opponet wants to shoot him he will keep his guns away from your other units (very few units can split their targets)

If they ignore him you still have a model to add your charges ;) (rember an unit can overwatch once per turn, so if Thawn charges the same unit charged by one of your other units he suffers no overwatch)

 

They real question is: is he worth his cost or should we use those points for something else?

[Gentlemanloser]

Both *very* good points. :)

 

Personally I find 75 points a tad too much for him (especially as you have to add the 40 points you lose on the original Justicare as well) for him to be worth Fearless and +1 to DtW.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Both *very* good points. :)

 

Personally I find 75 points a tad too much for him (especially as you have to add the 40 points you lose on the original Justicare as well) for him to be worth Fearless and +1 to DtW.

 

That was my impression, too.

I forgot to mention he will be an additional scoring unit. I suppose this is one of the reasons for his cost.

With 75 I may field a lot of interesting things: nearly 4 PAGK; nearly 3 GK TDA, countless upgrades etc...

 

For example, as you already know, I'm building a DK army. If I'll decide to use Terminators and I'll have 75 points available I could use those points to field more PAGK or even giving a Heavy Psycannon to a DK, for example.

 

Will a resurrecting model that will make my TDA unit fearless until he dies and increase my chances to nullify a psychic power more useful than more models or additional weapons?

[Chairman_woo]

Its also the crucial extra ability to alow his squad the same freedom of casting and or double stacking HH and activating FW like an IC was joined to the unit ontop of the fearless and improved deny the witch (hadn't noticed that cool :) ), oh yeh and the whole refusing to stay dead thing, that make him seem worthwhile.

 

This aspect appears like it is still contentious with some tho personally I cant see why, that arguement has run its course it seems however so no point dragging it up again save to say that if you are convinced he cant use that mastery 2 when he is in his squad for some reason then you are unlikely to be inclined to find his 75pt upgrade price worthwhile. His ability to comeback to life is a sweet part of the deal but its not really why I think he's worth taking.....

 

I'd take him because he can make a 10 man GKT blob fearless and benefit from powers like they had an otherwize (generally) much more expensive IC attatched. The fact he has a workaround to the biggest problem with justicars under 6th ed rules (their tendancy to stop being alive due to perils & challenges) and you might just about be able to make that extra 75 over the basic justicar make sense.

 

All of that said I would and am taking him because he's my fave charachter in the book, ^ all of this is essentially fueled by me trying to get best use out of him, perhaps if your local meta makes every point and possible advantage really really count you might overlook him. Tho there aren't any cheaper ways to get the double HH or HH & FW mastery 2 brings to a squad, and even less ways to get fearless!

 

 

Slightly on the expensive side but probably only by 10 or 20 pts, and if he was much cheaper everyone would be crying "beardy cheese"!