Typhus's Manreaper

[Seahawk]

Reading through the C:CSM FAQ, I read:

 

"The Manreaper is both a Daemon Weapon and a Force Axe."

 

So, this is already kind of confusing. Is it a power axe then, or is it an Unusual Power Weapon? It's a power axe with the Force and Daemon Weapon abilities, which is a unique rule to CSM.

 

 

Second, the FAQ right after that says:

 

"Typhus does not suffer the penalties for charging enemies through cover, but instead fights at his normal Initiative in the ensuing combat."

 

 

To me, this backs the UPW above because it says he fights at his normal Initiative, which is the one on his profile, which is 5.

 

 

 

 

So, does Typhus strike at I5, AP3, or S5, I1, AP2? If the latter, does the FAQ override the Unwieldy rule of the axe?

[DarkGuard]

It's really, really confusing. Does he fight at I5, AP2 because he's got an axe and the FAQ overrides Unwieldy?

 

At first glance, I'd say it's to make his Daemon Weapon strike at I1 and AP2, but then that FAQ....

 

It certainly makes sure he has Force, but why not just say he has a Daemon Weapon with Force? Intriguing...

[Toasterfree]

i would say in this case that its a UPW. only reason why is look at the GK...

 

they all have their own rules and follow the UPW rule which makes them ap3.

I can give my rune priests a runic force axe (for all intents and purposes) but since it has its own rules, it would be a UPW and ap3, not 2.

 

i would say that its a choice, used at i5 ap3 OR i1 +1 S ap2. think logan grimnar :D

[Grey Mage]

It seems quite simple: Its a Force Axe. AP 2, Unwielding, with the other benefit of being a force weapon.

 

On top of that it gets its daemon weapon abilities.

 

Wheres the confusion and conflict?

[Seahawk]

Doesn't the daemon weapon rule make it a power weapon with special rules, making it an UPW?

[dizzy-xc]

It seems quite simple: Its a Force Axe. AP 2, Unwielding, with the other benefit of being a force weapon.

 

On top of that it gets its daemon weapon abilities.

 

Wheres the confusion and conflict?

 

 

The problem is that he's FAQed with a Force AXE. And the faq goes on to say he fights at his normal initiative, not a modified initiative. So that'd make it an AP2 force weapon/deamon weapon that strikes at his normal initiative.

 

Edit: wrong quote. Fixed. lol.

[*Furyou Miko]

Except it says "at his normal initiative", not "at his umodified initiative". Normal initiative for any model with an axe is 1.

[dizzy-xc]

The fact his initiative was mentioned and NOT unwieldy is important. That could have been left out and we'd simply use the unwieldy rule at I1. So he still strikes at I5 (I think its 5) because Codex > Advanced > Basic.

[puffin]

I read it as "it's EITHER a Daemon Weapon OR a Force Axe (choose at the start of each round of combat)". That way the DT wording works so that he hits at I5 with the Daemon Weapon.

 

Plus, wouldn't it just be a "Daemon Force Axe" if it was a single type? (Or a "Force Axe with the Daemon special rule")

[Grey Mage]

Doesn't the daemon weapon rule make it a power weapon with special rules, making it an UPW?

No, since it was FAQ'd as an Axe specificly- much like Kharns axe.

 

It seems quite simple: Its a Force Axe. AP 2, Unwielding, with the other benefit of being a force weapon.

 

On top of that it gets its daemon weapon abilities.

 

Wheres the confusion and conflict?

 

 

The problem is that he's FAQed with a Force AXE. And the faq goes on to say he fights at his normal initiative, not a modified initiative. So that'd make it an AP2 force weapon/deamon weapon that strikes at his normal initiative.

 

Edit: wrong quote. Fixed. lol.

I see, so the contention is what I he fights at?

 

Id say since it says at his normal initiative that means its not taking the unwieldy drawback, but does keep the +1 strength and AP 2. Lucky guy.

[nurglez]

Typhus does not suffer the penalties for charging enemies through cover, but instead fights at his normal Initiative in the ensuing combat.

 

That is only due to his frag grenade like ability from his destroyer hive. It's like saying that because I have frag grenades I use my powerfist at normal initiative.

 

I believe that Typhus has a power axe, that is a daemon weapon that can also instantly kill people. And he strikes at I1 unless he was to drop his scythe on the way into combat and then he would strike at normal initiative, even if charging through cover.

[Raeven]

Remember, Typhus can use Psychic powers during assaults, which would occur during his base initiative.

 

Because his weapon is both a Daemon weapon "and" Force Axe, it uses the stats of a Force Axe (so it's unweildy, +1 Str, AP2) and has the bonus attacks and special mark powers of Daemon weapons. You can't pick one or the other.

 

His weapon doesn't have any special rules to it, so it shouldn't be considered a UPW.

[dizzy-xc]

Remember, Typhus can use Psychic powers during assaults, which would occur during his base initiative.

 

Because his weapon is both a Daemon weapon "and" Force Axe, it uses the stats of a Force Axe (so it's unweildy, +1 Str, AP2) and has the bonus attacks and special mark powers of Daemon weapons. You can't pick one or the other.

 

His Psychic Powers are not at issue. The issue is that he has a Force AXE that is said to 'fight at his normal initiative'. The FAQ is a codex rule that overides unwieldy. Note that the FaQ didnt specify Psychic Powers nor his base initiative. It simply says 'his initiative', nothing more nothing less. What is his Initiative? It's 5, so he fights with his Manreaper at I5. Codex > Adv > Basic.

 

The fact that it mentions his initiative at ALL is because it overrides unwieldy. Otherwise there is absolutely no reason to add that distinction to the faq.

 

His weapon doesn't have any special rules to it, so it shouldn't be considered a UPW.

 

Because of the way it is FaQed makes it somewhat unusual, lol. He costs what 225 points? He might just be worth it.

[Mezkh]

Space Marine Character fights at his normal initiative. (Assault Grenades)

 

Normal initiative for a model fighting with a Power Fist is I1

 

Therefore Space Marine Character fights at I1 if he uses his Power Fist

 

Typhus fights at his normal initiative. (Destroyer Hive)

 

Normal initiative for a model fighting with a Force Axe is I1.

 

Therefore Typhus fights at I1 if he uses his Force Axe.

 

 

 

What's the problem?

[ShinyRhino]

It's also important to note that the "must use a special weapon if you have one" restriction is gone in this edition. So, if Typhus wants to charge and punch people in the neck instead of chopping them, he can do so at his normal initiative. His normal initiative when charging with the ae is I1.

[Seahawk]

His weapon doesn't have any special rules to it, so it shouldn't be considered a UPW

It inherently does though. Beyond just being a power weapon, it is also a force weapon. If one ignores that (and I can see why), it's also has the special rules involved with being a daemon weapon.

 

Other Daemon Weapons are UPWs, so why not this one?

 

Even if it wasn't a UPW, one could still argue that he strikes at his normal Initiative. What's a model's normal Initiative? It's the value on his profile. The one given to him by a weapon or terrain is an abnormal value, because it isn't always in play.

 

Normal initiative for a model fighting with a Power Fist is I1

Normal initiative for a model fighting with a Force Axe is I1.

I've already shown elsewhere why this is not true.

[Grimtooth]

Reading through the C:CSM FAQ, I read:

 

"The Manreaper is both a Daemon Weapon and a Force Axe."

 

So, this is already kind of confusing. Is it a power axe then, or is it an Unusual Power Weapon? It's a power axe with the Force and Daemon Weapon abilities, which is a unique rule to CSM.

 

 

Second, the FAQ right after that says:

 

"Typhus does not suffer the penalties for charging enemies through cover, but instead fights at his normal Initiative in the ensuing combat."

 

 

To me, this backs the UPW above because it says he fights at his normal Initiative, which is the one on his profile, which is 5.

axe

 

So, does Typhus strike at I5, AP3, or S5, I1, AP2? If the latter, does the FAQ override the Unwieldy rule of the axe?

 

With what you have quoted you are you the Typhus becomes very complex,

 

The only time he would striking at I5 would be when charging enemies through cover and that would be the only time. Any other time he would be bound by the unwieldy rules of being equipped with an axe.

 

In addition, the second FAQ you refer to is 100% specific as well as to what penalties he does not suffer and when, charging enemies through cover. As that only specifies a distinct moment and circumstance, the unwieldy rule is not in the least affected.

[pyroknight]

Assault Grenades

Models equipped with assault grenades don't suffer the penalty to their Initiative for charging enemies through cover, but fight at their normal Initiative in the ensuing combat.

 

If Typhus can use his axe at I5, so can any other space marine; its the same wording.

 

You can argue if it is an axe or not, but if it is an AXE he goes at I1 just like everyone else.

[Raeven]

His Psychic Powers are not at issue. The issue is that he has a Force AXE that is said to 'fight at his normal initiative'. The FAQ is a codex rule that overides unwieldy. Note that the FaQ didnt specify Psychic Powers nor his base initiative. It simply says 'his initiative', nothing more nothing less. What is his Initiative? It's 5, so he fights with his Manreaper at I5. Codex > Adv > Basic.

 

The fact that it mentions his initiative at ALL is because it overrides unwieldy. Otherwise there is absolutely no reason to add that distinction to the faq.

 

The FAQ does not say that. It is the same boilerplate rule as Assault Grenades, the exact wording, which is only significant when you consider that he has multiple attacks that can occur on different initiatives. We've already shown how normal Initiative is the same as your modified initiative.

 

Otherwise, every model with a I1 weapon can attack at their base initiative if they are also armed with assault grenades and are attacking through cover.

 

They specifically mention that he has a force axe. They don't say "treat as", like they do with Khârn. Otherwise they would have just mentioned his scythe is a daemon weapon with the force ability. His weapon has no abilities that are unique to Daemon or Force weapons. His weapon is simply both a daemon weapon and force axe.

[Grey Mage]

Sorry, I misread this...

 

So yes, its a Force Axe- unusual Power Weapon wouldnt apply- itd be unusual force weapons- with extra rules, because the FAQ said so.

 

His grenades will let him strike at his normal Initiative when he assaults- except that his normal initiative for assaults is going to be 1, as hes using an axe.

[Toasterfree]

his demon weapon does in fact have its own rules. it has poison (4+) on it. so that would make it a UFW

[dizzy-xc]

It is the same boilerplate rule as Assault Grenades, the exact wording, which is only significant when you consider that he has multiple attacks that can occur on different initiatives. We've already shown how normal Initiative is the same as your modified initiative.

 

Otherwise, every model with a I1 weapon can attack at their base initiative if they are also armed with assault grenades and are attacking through cover.

 

Ok, i see that. Good point. I'll concede that issue on the wording and I1.

 

However, is there still debate on the weapon as an UPW? Would not that influence the Initiative?

[Raeven]

his demon weapon does in fact have its own rules. it has poison (4+) on it. so that would make it a UFW

 

 

Those rules are not unique to daemon weapons, it is a feature of every daemon weapon and mark of chaos. All models with a daemon weapon and the mark of nurgle get a 4+ to wound because of plague bearer.

[Raeven]

It is the same boilerplate rule as Assault Grenades, the exact wording, which is only significant when you consider that he has multiple attacks that can occur on different initiatives. We've already shown how normal Initiative is the same as your modified initiative.

 

Otherwise, every model with a I1 weapon can attack at their base initiative if they are also armed with assault grenades and are attacking through cover.

 

Ok, i see that. Good point. I'll concede that issue on the wording and I1.

 

However, is there still debate on the weapon as an UPW? Would not that influence the Initiative?

 

 

Yes. I would argue that if it is a upw, it loses the stats of a force axe, which is why I feel it isn't a upw.

[Toasterfree]

his demon weapon does in fact have its own rules. it has poison (4+) on it. so that would make it a UFW

 

 

Those rules are not unique to daemon weapons, it is a feature of every daemon weapon and mark of chaos. All models with a daemon weapon and the mark of nurgle get a 4+ to wound because of plague bearer.

but not all demon weapons have the same rules. which would make all marked demon weapons a UP(F)W of their particular flavor.

 

i dont even see the scyth as an axe