Morticon Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 found this on dakka: Lelith Hesperax's "The Penetrating Blade" rule similarly says "Her attacks ignore armour saves." of some note is that "attacks" is not capitalized as it is when referring to a game term, such as in "A League Apart" where it says "Lelith gets a number of bonus Attacks equal to..." so since a ranged attack is still a subset of the broader attacks, and Lelith's attacks ignore armour saves, can she throw her plasma grenades in the Shooting Phase and have them ignore an opponent's armour saves? with this as back up: http://i49.tinypic.com/27yzoet.jpg thoughts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256944-lelith-and-grenades/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 No saves vs Grenades. That's awesome! [edit] This cannot be used in Germany or with German players, as all nouns are capitalized in that language, meaning it strictly refers to her A value. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256944-lelith-and-grenades/#findComment-3126521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 19, 2012 Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 Is there no argument being made for the the fact that the reference to her attacks ignoring armour are listed under her melee weapon details? The Daemons FAQ I'm not fussed about as that's quite general. Isn't it the same argument before as the "models armed with X may Y..." and have that applied to other aspects of the rules? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256944-lelith-and-grenades/#findComment-3126530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 ReallY? You found this for your next big F.U. moment? Is the blade a grenade? Are you throwing the blade? Is the blade used in the attack? Then no. Unless you want your oponnent to say, "OK, if winning is that important to you; you win" while they pick up their models then no. Greneades don't ignore armor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256944-lelith-and-grenades/#findComment-3126531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 What about Grenades thrown by super hot evil space elves? :yes: I would let my opponent use it just because Lelith is a cool character/model. Incentivising! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256944-lelith-and-grenades/#findComment-3126534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 19, 2012 Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 ReallY? You found this for your next big F.U. moment? Is the blade a grenade? Are you throwing the blade? Is the blade used in the attack? Then no. Unless you want your oponnent to say, "OK, if winning is that important to you; you win" while they pick up their models then no. Who is this post addressed to? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256944-lelith-and-grenades/#findComment-3126535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingo Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Does the rulebook really refer to firing shots as making an attack? I see lots of references to 'shots fired' and the like but can't seem to find a reference to shooting being an 'attack', with the exception of the grenade profiles, funnily enough, but this is called a 'shooting attack'. Is that different enough? Interesting question, this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256944-lelith-and-grenades/#findComment-3126609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Is there no argument being made for the the fact that the reference to her attacks ignoring armour are listed under her melee weapon details? It would really depend on where the Penetrating Blade and the reference to her ignoring armor saves rules are actually written. If it's listed under her melee weapon details, then that would apply only to her melee weapon (which would be at Strength and AP3 for being an Unusual Power Weapon). DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256944-lelith-and-grenades/#findComment-3126615 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 19, 2012 Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 If it's listed under her melee weapon details, then that would apply only to her melee weapon (which would be at Strength and AP3 for being an Unusual Power Weapon). DV8 Ahoy - DV8 thats exaaaaaactly my argument. The counter argument from the Dakkites seem to be that the FAQ sets precedent for "all attacks" being both ranged and combat. I argue its contextually dependent. Any ideas to further support this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256944-lelith-and-grenades/#findComment-3126626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spacefrisian Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Doesnt it say something along the lines of only 1 grenade per unit can be thrown? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256944-lelith-and-grenades/#findComment-3126629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 19, 2012 Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 Does the rulebook really refer to firing shots as making an attack? I see lots of references to 'shots fired' and the like but can't seem to find a reference to shooting being an 'attack', with the exception of the grenade profiles, funnily enough, but this is called a 'shooting attack'. Is that different enough? Interesting question, this. attack is a verb though, Pingo. Capitalized it would refer to the characteristic. But it doesnt in this case. Doesnt it say something along the lines of only 1 grenade per unit can be thrown? yeh, so if its Leliths it means a Plasma grenade that ignores armour. Not game breaking, but just a bit naff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256944-lelith-and-grenades/#findComment-3126638 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 If it's listed under her melee weapon details, then that would apply only to her melee weapon (which would be at Strength and AP3 for being an Unusual Power Weapon). DV8 Ahoy - DV8 thats exaaaaaactly my argument. The counter argument from the Dakkites seem to be that the FAQ sets precedent for "all attacks" being both ranged and combat. I argue its contextually dependent. Any ideas to further support this? Chaos Daemons FAQ =/= Dark Eldar FAQ. While it may set some precedent, and can be used as a basis for interpretation, it is not by RAW admissible as permission to allow Lelith's grenades to ignore Armor Saves. Which, of course, don't change the fact that the ability to "ignore armor saves" falls under Lelith's melee weapon special rules, and not under her rules for Grenades (which, correct me if I'm wrong, would be referenced in the Codex and Rulebook as Plasma Grenades, which do not ignore armor saves). DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256944-lelith-and-grenades/#findComment-3126651 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 19, 2012 Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 Im with you there, but the argument is that the weapon (a melee weapon) is allowing you the power to ignore armour saves in all your attacks. How can we argue to counter this? I've used the argument that its a function of the melee weapon, but the counter is that the melee weapon grants "attacks (non-descrip) the ability to ignore armour". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256944-lelith-and-grenades/#findComment-3126658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DV8 Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Im with you there, but the argument is that the weapon (a melee weapon) is allowing you the power to ignore armour saves in all your attacks. How can we argue to counter this? I've used the argument that its a function of the melee weapon, but the counter is that the melee weapon grants "attacks (non-descrip) the ability to ignore armour". EDIT I'm looking at the Codex and FAQ now: Codex: Dark Eldar, Page 49 Quicksilver Dodge (4+/3+): Lelith is far more agile than a mere Wych or Succubus. She has a 4+ invulnerable saving throw, which is increased to 3+ against wounds caused by close combat attacks. Precision Strike: Lelith places her blows with such uncanny precision she can always find a chink in the enemy's armour. Her attacks ignore saves. A League Apart: Lelith gets a number of bonus Attacks... (ignoring FAQ wording change, key is Attacks capitalized) The FAQ makes no mentions of changes, so all we have is the Codex and Rulebook. The Codex gives Precision Strike as a general rule for Lelith. Grenades could not be thrown prior to 6th, so attacks would have implied close combat attacks. However, Quicksilver Dodge makes particular mention of "close combat attacks" (uncapitalized) and A League Apart makes particular mention of Attacks (capitalized, referring to her Attacks characteristic). The key, Morticon, is to prove (or disprove) whether throwing a grenade qualifies as an "attack" (non-descrip), or specifically as a shooting attack, etc. My rulebook is in my car, and I am at work, so I am unable to check. DV8 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256944-lelith-and-grenades/#findComment-3126668 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 19, 2012 Author Share Posted July 19, 2012 Thats how I intend to argue anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256944-lelith-and-grenades/#findComment-3126671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Penetrating Blade is a special rule, not a weapon in and of itself. Grenades: When a unit armed with assault grenades makes a shooting attack, on model can choose to throw a grenade, rather than using another shooting weapon. (BRB, p.61) "Once you have completed steps...for each unit in your army that you wish to make a shooting attack, carry on to the assault phase." (BRB, p.12) So, a shooting attack involves everything that you do at range. Throwing grenades, therefore, count as a shooting attack. For Lelith, she thusly gets to ignore armor saves with her grenades because it's an attack, and her attacks ignore armor. One could imagine she has the skill to throw it at somebody's face, or groin or something. That's a spicy meatball! I added it to the FAQ at any rate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256944-lelith-and-grenades/#findComment-3127700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted July 21, 2012 Author Share Posted July 21, 2012 Well the rule book says: "when a unit armed with plasma grenades makes a shooting attack..." so...seems, as stupid as it is, pretty solid :rolleyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256944-lelith-and-grenades/#findComment-3128257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 It's one of those funny little things that can happen with an edition change. Honestly though, Plasma grenades being AP4 anyway which is fairly decent, it's not too big a deal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256944-lelith-and-grenades/#findComment-3128262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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