Tactica for Imperial Guard Allies

[Cmdr Shepard]

Greetings Battle Brothers,

 

I have noticed IG allies have been quoted several time in this forum and I strongly believe we need a Tactica Topic to discuss the most important aspect of IG allied units from the whole SM armies' perspective and not from the point of view of a single list.

 

That's the purpose of this topic.

 

Feel free to add your opinions on the best use of IG units in every SM army. If this topic will meet the interest of the community I can edit the original post and add the "concept/strategies" you share, so everyone can read them as soon as they reach this topic :yes:

[J!MM!L!C!OUS]

My take is always play to your strengths. IG specialise in shootyness - moreso than even SM. Therefore I would suggest a complementary shooty wall with the inclusion of an aegis defense line :yes:

[DerekLee688]

Few "concept" ideas to throw around.

 

Chimera led "Rhino Rush": Rhino's are still viable and can use SM shooty units like sternguard/Greyhunters to take assaults and have IG provide overwatch, or load down IG units with flamers and keep SM CC units to act as counter assault. Chimera units can block LoS while SM CC units can disembark their cheaper rhino transports.

 

SM/IG flying circus: Storm tallon can escort a land speeder storm while a wing of IG vendetta can scout in as well.

 

SM reinforced gunline: 4xML devs/Honor guard/Sternguard backing up IG Artillery battery/heavy weapons teams.

 

Plasma cannon Leman Russ between two Lascannon Land raiders? That's an armored spearhead!

 

Hellhound/Bane Wolf would complement and keep up with a biker army nicely. Killing hordes or MEQ, something regular bikers have trouble with due to no power weapons and few models. While bikers can be outfitted to kill vehicles in short range/CQC combat.

 

Just checking, we can talk about an IG army + SM allies too right? Kinda important if you want more than one IG artillery battery.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Few "concept" ideas to throw around.

 

Chimera led "Rhino Rush": Rhino's are still viable and can use SM shooty units like sternguard/Greyhunters to take assaults and have IG provide overwatch, or load down IG units with flamers and keep SM CC units to act as counter assault. Chimera units can block LoS while SM CC units can disembark their cheaper rhino transports.

 

SM/IG flying circus: Storm tallon can escort a land speeder storm while a wing of IG vendetta can scout in as well.

 

SM reinforced gunline: 4xML devs/Honor guard/Sternguard backing up IG Artillery battery/heavy weapons teams.

 

Plasma cannon Leman Russ between two Lascannon Land raiders? That's an armored spearhead!

 

Hellhound/Bane Wolf would complement and keep up with a biker army nicely. Killing hordes or MEQ, something regular bikers have trouble with due to no power weapons and few models. While bikers can be outfitted to kill vehicles in short range/CQC combat.

 

Just checking, we can talk about an IG army + SM allies too right? Kinda important if you want more than one IG artillery battery.

 

Your ideas are very interesting. I don't know if we can talk about IG armies + SM allies on this forum. I'm certain we can talk about SM armies + IG allies, though.

I hope someone will tell us something in this matter.

 

Anyway still talking about IG as allies:

Executioner Leman Russ (the plasma cannon Russ ;) ) and/or Basilisk are a very tempting addition.

 

In 6th Edition Barrage weapons may be the best choice to alter the "wound allocation sequence" chosen by our opponent.

Most players will put on the front line the most resisit character and when he suffers a wound they "look out, sir" it.

However the shot's origin of a barrage weapon in the center of the blast.

This means two things:

1. The front line model may no longer be the closest model

2. The cover save is determined by the position of the blast's center. If we are shooting to an unit partially covered by a ruin wall a "standard" attack will give our opponent a 4+ save but since the orgin of the shot is the blast's center this cover is denied, or a least reduced if it still in a terrain.

[Ricter]

I'm strongly considering running a squad of Veterans in Chimeras along with Khan. He gives their Chimera the ability to outflank (note his ability was not FAQ'd and it only specifies dedicated transports), and honestly I feel a squad of Veterans is stronger than a tactical squad for taking and holding objectives that bikes normally have issues with (i.e. in cover). They're ~40-50 points cheaper (so you can have more bikes pushing forward) even with more special weapons, and can benefit from orders of the CCS to make them even more killy than the tac squad. Their lesser armor isn't as big of a deal since they'll be in cover and can just Go To Ground for a 3+ cover save.

 

CCS is nice to allow access to a cheap large blast template (one use only), +1 to your reserves, reroll outflanking, -1 to opponent reserves and reroll their outflanking.

 

Plus, their transports are better than rhinos - +1 front armor, nice bulky frames for providing cover, two solid weapons and lots of fire points (which works real well with the special weapon spam) all for the low cost of a storm bolter and 20 points.

 

Fully mounted, the option costs 290-380, depending on how many special weapons you want to add in, and adds about 20 models to a low model count army with a spread of very useful abilities.

 

 

Going up from there, I've been looking at Sly Marbo (Outflanking makes the enemy castle, generally - he exploits this wonderfully), PBS (Syncs very, very well with a bike Libby since their range is huge) and Rough Riders with their newly buffed character to give a cheap counter assault squad.

[ShinyRhino]

I'm strongly considering running a squad of Veterans in Chimeras along with Khan. He gives their Chimera the ability to outflank (note his ability was not FAQ'd and it only specifies dedicated transports),

 

Khan's ability requires the unit to trade in its Combat tactics rule for the Chapter tactics rule. IG lack that ability. No outflankies for the Guardsmen.

[Sir_Isenhar]

Well you can get away with Creeds ability to give scout to a unit with its dedicated unit...

 

Now you can give outflank to assault terminators in there dedicated LRC or do what you said above...

 

Creed ability was not FAQ i believe so can still apply to ally units..

 

I also think the Vendetta is overlooked... at 130pts you get a flyer with AV12 and 3 TLC... i dont think SM can compete with that

Plus you can get a squadron of 3...

[Haranin]

Primus Psycher, Psycher battle squad, vet squad, vendetta. Paired up with a librarian you now can cause 2x 3d6-1 wounds that you can only taken an ++ on. Vendetta to keep flyers off your back. 400 points for the IG

 

Librarian in termie armor to shove into your enemy's face. Primus for the HQ, and rear defense.

 

Not many units will be happy with getting hit by 3d6-1 wounds with no armor or cover saves a turn...

[spartan249]

I'm thinking that we use our respective marines as close quarters combat troops with mobility included, then use IG allies to provide the firebase. The inherent ability of IG to take multiple units in a single slot can and should be taken advantage of whenever possible.

[Ricter]

Khan's ability requires the unit to trade in its Combat tactics rule for the Chapter tactics rule. IG lack that ability. No outflankies for the Guardsmen.

 

I don't think so, both by RAW and RAI. "Dedicated transports" is all it requires - not "dedicated transports with combat tactics", as no dedicated transports exist with combat tactics, as far as I know. So by RAW, it works. I couldn't, however, give a Leman Russ the ability to outflank since it has neither combat tactics nor is a dedicated transport.

 

Further they FAQ'd all (or nearly all, I don't have access to the FAQ) of the other chapter tactics to specifically only work with units from C:SM except Khan's. Assuming they didn't just forget about him, I'd say that's RAI as well.

[ShinyRhino]

Khan's ability requires the unit to trade in its Combat tactics rule for the Chapter tactics rule. IG lack that ability. No outflankies for the Guardsmen.

 

I don't think so, both by RAW and RAI. "Dedicated transports" is all it requires - not "dedicated transports with combat tactics", as no dedicated transports exist with combat tactics, as far as I know. So by RAW, it works. I couldn't, however, give a Leman Russ the ability to outflank since it has neither combat tactics nor is a dedicated transport.

 

Further they FAQ'd all (or nearly all, I don't have access to the FAQ) of the other chapter tactics to specifically only work with units from C:SM except Khan's. Assuming they didn't just forget about him, I'd say that's RAI as well.

 

You're completely ignoring the first part of the rule, where it tells you that all units in the army trade combat tactics for the ability to outflank. The dedicated transport part is an addition to that, meaning things like terminators or tactical squads can still outflank in their DTs, but they have ot be embarked to do so.

[Ricter]

You're completely ignoring the first part of the rule, where it tells you that all units in the army trade combat tactics for the ability to outflank. The dedicated transport part is an addition to that, meaning things like terminators or tactical squads can still outflank in their DTs, but they have ot be embarked to do so.

 

No, I'm not. The first part is only relevant because you must do that if you want to get outflanking on your transports (i.e. you can't get outflanking if you use another character's chapter tactics). The second part doesn't say, "Dedicated transports of those units...". It just says "All Dedicated transports". Further, units with the Outflank ability already convey that on to their DTs automatically, both in 5E and 6E, so your interpretation doesn't really make much sense. You're welcome to argue this isn't RAI, but by what's written, it works.

 

And again, GW FAQ'd each other special character ability that could be applied to allies through chapter tactics, so either they forgot about Khan or this is intentional.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You're completely ignoring the first part of the rule, where it tells you that all units in the army trade combat tactics for the ability to outflank. The dedicated transport part is an addition to that, meaning things like terminators or tactical squads can still outflank in their DTs, but they have ot be embarked to do so.

 

No, I'm not. The first part is only relevant because you must do that if you want to get outflanking on your transports (i.e. you can't get outflanking if you use another character's chapter tactics). The second part doesn't say, "Dedicated transports of those units...". It just says "All Dedicated transports". Further, units with the Outflank ability already convey that on to their DTs automatically, both in 5E and 6E, so your interpretation doesn't really make much sense. You're welcome to argue this isn't RAI, but by what's written, it works.

 

And again, GW FAQ'd each other special character ability that could be applied to allies through chapter tactics, so either they forgot about Khan or this is intentional.

 

 

The entire entry is under the big bold letters that read "Chapter Tactics." Ergo, it only applies to units which Chapter Tactics effects. We went through this same argument YEARS AGO when people were trying to run Sisters detachments with Vulkan and claim his twin-linking benefits.

[pyroknight]

“…exchange the Combat Tactics special rule for the ability to outflank. If you choose to do this, all dedicated transports also gain the ability to outflank-”

That’s the rule, and I must admit it’s very poorly worded.

 

In fact, it doesn’t even say the transport need by yours! If you do not need Combat Tactics to gain outflank, then wouldn’t all your opponent’s dedicated transports also gain outflank as well? …if we took the text literally.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Your logic is everything that pisses me off about our precious little wargames. By your logic, the MOTF's Lord of the Armory rule:

 

If you include a Master of the Forge in your army, Dreadnoughts, Venerable Dreadnoughts and Ironclad Dreadnoughts may be taken as Heavy Support choices as well as Elites choices.

 

means that if I take him, my Chaos Space Marine opponent can take an Ironclad Dreadnought as a Heavy Support choice. Hell, an Eldar player could do that using your line-item literal interpretation of the text. Apply common sense, people. If I tried to tell my gaming group that Combat Tactics, a Space Marine rule, applied to my Imperial Guard allies, they'd drag me into the street and beat me with hammers until I promised to stop being a douchebag.

[bystrom]

Taking Creed, Harker or attaching a character with Khan's chapter tactics allows you to outflank, as you only need one model in the squad to be able to outflank for the unit to outflank. So, for example, attach a techmarine, Khan, or take the appropriate IG special character. Then outflank without going through the dubious trick of using Khan.

[Ricter]

The entire entry is under the big bold letters that read "Chapter Tactics." Ergo, it only applies to units which Chapter Tactics effects. We went through this same argument YEARS AGO when people were trying to run Sisters detachments with Vulkan and claim his twin-linking benefits.

 

And now you're just making rules up. There is nowhere in the rules that defines what "Chapter Tactics" even effects at all. Each "Chapter Tactics" is its own rule, with its own requirements and effects.

 

You're welcome to play it how you wish. You're welcome to think that your version of common sense is the only way (a bit naive, in my opinion, be that as it may). To me, it doesn't seem unreasonable for Khan to lead his allies and have them follow after, and it seems like common sense that the fact that GW specifically FAQ'd other special character abilities to not work with allies implies they're okay with this working.

 

You're welcome to consider me a rules lawyer, douchebag or whatever makes you feel better. But it may behoove you to respect that others are allowed to disagree with your opinion, especially when the rules as written back it up. If you cannot respect others opinions and implicitly insult them, perhaps you should simply refrain from replying to their posts if they bother you that much.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Calm down, Battle Brothers. :)

 

I posted this topic in order to discuss the best way to use IG allies with our SM armies. If we focus on the "Chapter Tactics" rule discussion we would ignore the most important aspect og IG allies.

If you want my opinion on that matter I can tell you usually Codex-specific rules apply to that codex alone. In most FAQ the word "friendly unit" has been changed in "unit from X Codex".

 

Anyway I ask you to focus on the tactical aspect of IG allies, thank you.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Ricter, you gave up in the Devastator thread; I'm giving up in this one.

[Ricter]

If you want my opinion on that matter I can tell you usually Codex-specific rules apply to that codex alone. In most FAQ the word "friendly unit" has been changed in "unit from X Codex".

 

That was kind of my point - they didn't change Khan's ability to apply just to units from X codex.

 

Ricter, you gave up in the Devastator thread; I'm giving up in this one.

 

I'd appreciate it, since you neither contributed to the topic nor treated other posters with respect.

 

Anyways, back on topic, another squad I've seriously considered is the cheap special weapons squad for the 3x snipers. I've always disliked buying scout snipers to objective camp, as I've felt they're too expensive for the job. The SWS clocks in at a lower price tag and pretty much dies to the same units anyways (i.e. there isn't much that would wipe the SWS that wouldn't wipe the scouts). It also can benefit from orders, as need be.

 

Another cheap objective camper is the mortar heavy weapons team. It can even fire indirectly, and barrage weapons are good at sniping special/heavy weapons now, although the effectiveness against MEQ is low.

 

Basically, I look to the Imperial Guard to solve our weaknesses. One of them, at least in my opinion, is that we do not have an effective (as in, contributes to killing the enemy in some positive manner relative to its cost), inexpensive objective holder, especially for our own deployment zone. I feel this can be especially difficult for aggressive / mech / bike armies and their hybrids.

[Cmdr Shepard]

If you want my opinion on that matter I can tell you usually Codex-specific rules apply to that codex alone. In most FAQ the word "friendly unit" has been changed in "unit from X Codex".

 

That was kind of my point - they didn't change Khan's ability to apply just to units from X codex.

 

I haven't read every stage of this "quarrel" but I just wanted to say I believe we cannot extend the benefit of C:SM rules to IG allies, unless stated.

 

Anyway I don't see the issue with Chapter Tactics and allies. The rule say the lost combat tactics and gain the rule granted by chapter tactic; IG allies have no combat tactics thus they cannot benefit from chapter tactics. It's pretty clear in my opinion, but this is going a little off topic so let's focus on the other aspects on IG allies.

[VoteForPedro]

As I'm mere days from finally caving in and picking up some IG allies for my Crimson Fists I thought I would contribute some.

 

The aforementioned Primaris Psyker, Psyker Battle Squad combo works a treat. PRO TIP: Enemies can only kill what they can see. As the PBS (Psyker Battle Squad) requires line of sight (and cannot be shot from a transport) keep the whole squad out of line of sight and one guy poking out. He'll then probably get shot to death (and just him) so move another guy out next turn and repeat it.

 

Although IG can perform a ton of roles I see them being used as back field campers, chucking out some firepower while they are at it. For this to be truly useful your Space Marine main force needs to be slightly more offensive to take away the attention.

 

Obvious picks:

A Vendetta will rule the skies and do a number an armour if needed. It'll also instant death Paladins with a bit of luck.

The Leman Russ is a backfield beast with the changes to templates (full strength hits for all, not just the middle), keep it cheap with just Heavy Bolter Sponsons and it'll cause some pain.

[Vincent Black Shadow]

I've been toying with the idea of adding IG tanks and command/vet heavy weapons units to support a bike army. Use them for ranged anti-infantry/anti-MC support + hold home objective while bikes melta vehicles and otherwise engage the enemy up close.

 

The trouble is that you only get limited FOC slots from allies, and much of the stuff you'd want from IG is in the most limited slots.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I've been toying with the idea of adding IG tanks and command/vet heavy weapons units to support a bike army. Use them for ranged anti-infantry/anti-MC support + hold home objective while bikes melta vehicles and otherwise engage the enemy up close.

 

The trouble is that you only get limited FOC slots from allies, and much of the stuff you'd want from IG is in the most limited slots.

That's why we have a second FOC at 2000 pts :cuss, even though this means an additional HQ and Troop.

 

Every time I think to add IG allies to my SM armies (C:SM and C:GK, mainly) I have a dilemma about troops: Veteran Squads or Infantry platoon?

Potentially the Infatrny Platoon gives us more models but I suppose the strenght of the platoons appeare evident when you field a good number of them.

A Veteran squad with flamers/heavy flamer is a good way to hold an objective. If we have some spare point we can give it a Chimera with heavy flamers. Vets remain in the Chimera till Turn 5, then they disembark and hold the objective.

 

I'd place the Chimera right nearby an objective. If a flanking unit wants to reach the objective it has to assault the Chimera and the Vets can overwatch from firing ports with their 2 flamers and heavy flamer. If the Chimera survives it will add it's own flamer to the next shooting phase's attacks.

 

I usually field a Company Command squad because it's the cheapest HQ. Sadly we cannot use a Techpriest or Priest as the mandatory HQ. It would have save some point, not many of them, though.

A Commisar or a Psyker may prove useful too but they cost 20 pts more.

[Zedrenael]

So I am so happy with the introduction of allies and using them as a PDF for my Blood Angels army.

 

The benefit that give my BA mostly is more scoring units for less points. So for 90 points you get 5 man tactical squad, while 130 points you get 25 guards men. So even points you get 7 marines for 25 guardsmen. Now you take an Aegis for some defense and go to ground with them and use get back in the fight for them to continue fighting. Another thing is rate of fire, with First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire. Then top it off with Divination Primaris Power which you will get ever game.

 

Another thing to consider is that you take heavy weapons teams. For 90 points you get three heavy weapons teams with 6 wounds and 3 missile launchers. Now for the same amount you get one devestator squad with 5 wounds no missiles. So people who want to missile spam then I suggest they take Heavy weapons teams.