SGM-Azrael Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I have been debating coming back to the game. The Dark Angels lore, iconography, the early stories, and the fact that we were the 1st and arguably the greatest legion got me into the game in the mid-90s. My love for the chapter got me to convince a friend to play the game. I was easily spending $100 a month on the hobby and was planning on collecting the entire chapter, along with an epic and BFG force. I was working on some short stories and possibly a comic. That all changed with the book "Angels of Darkness". I was so excited that we were getting a book I took off work to read it. After I was done I was in shock and felt ashamed about how it showed the chapter. I set the book down and told myself that I was done, done with the chapter, the game, and hobby in general. My books and armies went into storage were they have been the past 9 or so years. Without me to play against him my friend quit. Later on the other DA player in my area quit playing. It was bad enough that he was getting harassed about playing dress wearing homosexual marines, but now they were adding paranoid, unstable traitors lead by the cowardly Lion. That was 3 players to quit out of maybe 15 people in my area. And don’t get me started about our rules. A few years go by and I thought about coming back so I picked up the Horus Hersey books. Most were good but the DA books and the way they portrayed the Primarch and the legion was terrible in my opinion. I was also turned off coming back because of how GW was pushing the Ultramarines like they should be the only chapter to play. And retconning the fluff to show them as the greatest thing since sliced bread, the wheel, and beer. So I wait till this year recently picked up some of the new books, and especially any DA stories. The ones I found were “Savage Weapons” which was a good Night Lord but bad DA story. Also read “call of the lion”, “the lion”, “and the siege of Vraks”, again none of them were much good. So far the only DA book I half way enjoyed has been “The Purging of Kadillus”. I was wondering if anyone knew if we are going to get any good stories. Ones that don’t portray us or the Lion as strategic, tactical amateurs or as unstable, paranoid, easily duped clowns who abandons our allies with the only thing on our mind are to capture the fallen. I see that maybe we are finally going to get some support by GW putting us in the box set. So should I come back or should I wait 10 more years when everything gets retconned again and maybe GW could show us some love. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
HJL Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Dark Angels were never meant to be a shining example of perfection, that was the Ultramarines. The Dark Angels are in a constant struggle with their own genetic paranoia and the destructive shame that they feel over theirs, and the actions of their brothers. The shame is so deep that they are willing to do unspeakable actions in order to right the wrongs of 10,ooo years ago. Unfortunately their actions and utter dedication to this cause leads them deeper in to a pit of self despair and damnation. They have a sorry story and constantly teeter on the brink of Chaos. Of course despite this they will still fight for humanity and the galaxy that the Emperor tried to create. They are two sides of the same coin, bright hope and unbreakable resolve on the head : despair and paranoia on the tail. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3126734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 You know you could always do a succesor chapter that has made its goal not just to destroy the fallen but to repair the reputation and honnor of the Legion with the Imperium Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3126753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajax Tlamunus Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 Or simply ignore any of the "official" background you don't like. Rick Priestly and Games Workshop have stressed from the very beginning of the game that the only true canon of the universe is that there is no true cannon. The one of the High Lords of Terra is tasked with actively re-writing and "correcting" the historical record. Battlefleets may be impressive, but he can remove you from existence with the stroke of his pen! (And the pens a few billion lesser acolytes in the Administratum.) Every scrap of information about the universe is propoganda, myths, legends, historical revisionism, or outright lies from one biased source or another. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3126787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 but he can remove you from existence with the stroke of his pen! (And the pens a few billion lesser acolytes in the Administratum.) Every scrap of information about the universe is propoganda, myths, legends, historical revisionism, or outright lies from one biased source or another. Lets try that one on the nids and necrons hehehe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3126859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiron Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I have played Dark Angels quite a long time. Then I turned to Chaos. Reason? I really liked it mysterious. I had my own vision of what happened or who the Fallen were. After both of the HH stories I just felt like... like whole history I imagined has been stolen to me. So I have chosen freedom. However I still miss them. I have sold all my models and started over (just like you leave everything behind after break up with woman). I miss some aspects of my Dark Angels and one day, I will maybe return to them. Or maybe I will amend some Dark Angels to my chaos force. So, short to say, I vote for yes! You should take your warriors out and let them fight for their honor again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3126880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 The dark angels are the only mistress i cant leave. I am out of 40k for the time being but i still remain dedicated to the da. Still have tons of models to build. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3126887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 The dark angels are the only mistress i cant leave. Same for me Brother 'I', while I'm keen on seeing this new C:CSM for my cornflakes army I only get actually 'excited' when I hear about DA releases. OCTOBER FTW!!! OP: Maybe the DA are not for you, the DA wear dresses, have paranoia and 'issues' in truckloads, are not particularly good guys, and have always (since AoD) been misunderstood by players and the Imperium alike. Edit: Remember DA are just Celibate Fighting Monks in SPAAAAACE! like Bryan said. If you do come back remember that's who the DA are, warts and all. You'll always be welcome here with the nutters. Stobz Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3126966 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 I think if you can't answer that question yourself, then the answer is No. Sorry, that's just the way I feel. I think that the Codex/Army/Fluff should just grab you and make you want to play them. If it doesn't, then maybe the army isn't the one you want, and that's not a big deal, there's quite a few more GW-created armies out there to turn to, and at least one other has the knightly theme (although they are a different type of extreme) as well, if that's what you want. There's nothing wrong with starting over with a different army, variety is the spice of life and why GW has different versions of Marines. The teasing about stuff should be the least of the worries about an army. Give as good back: BA are damn near unstable cannibalistic lunatics, SW aren't potty trained who probably shag sheep, etc. Marines really don't have any orientation, so the orientation issue/thing really doesn't make any sense, but if your opponents are worried about it, maybe they should check their own thoughts before worrying about your plastic army men. :P Seriously though, tell them to grow up some, or stop playing 13 year olds. That said, I find the Dark Angels to have some of the best fluff, but you have to accept that they aren't the sterling silver Marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3127006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
pueriexdeus Posted July 19, 2012 Share Posted July 19, 2012 So are you wondering about coming back to 40K, or have you been on another Army and want justification to play DA? Play whay ever you want, I'm sure that there are LGS in your area, pop in, scope em out, don't worry about what other think. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3127099 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 The dark angels are the only mistress i cant leave. Same for me Brother 'I', while I'm keen on seeing this new C:CSM for my cornflakes army I only get actually 'excited' when I hear about DA releases. OCTOBER FTW!!! OP: Maybe the DA are not for you, the DA wear dresses, have paranoia and 'issues' in truckloads, are not particularly good guys, and have always (since AoD) been misunderstood by players and the Imperium alike. Edit: Remember DA are just Celibate Fighting Monks in SPAAAAACE! like Bryan said. If you do come back remember that's who the DA are, warts and all. You'll always be welcome here with the nutters. Stobz +1 BTW my x girlfriend found the fact that they wore robes amusing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3127425 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Semper Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I think if you can't answer that question yourself, then the answer is No. Sorry, that's just the way I feel. I think that the Codex/Army/Fluff should just grab you and make you want to play them. If it doesn't, then maybe the army isn't the one you want, and that's not a big deal, there's quite a few more GW-created armies out there to turn to, and at least one other has the knightly theme (although they are a different type of extreme) as well, if that's what you want. There's nothing wrong with starting over with a different army, variety is the spice of life and why GW has different versions of Marines. This^ Some thingsshould come easy or not at al. Building an army is a big commitment (time and money-wise) so you should not go into it half heratedly. Shop around, there are a number of marine armies out there with a number of play styles and real-life/historic references or indeed create your own. Just don't force yourself to like anything because it won't survive the test of time... That said, I find the Dark Angels to have some of the best fluff, but you have to accept that they aren't the sterling silver Marines. Not only they're not sterling silver but they are the most dark/scary marine faction out there - more so for they are loyalists! And yes fluff is probably the best single attribute of the DAs so again, if it doesn't do it for you just try something else. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3127435 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I have reread the ops post more carefully so i will throw in two more cents. First of all why did of all things a black library novel made you quit your favorite army of all things? Paranoid yes but traitors? Tell your friends to check their facts twice. As Stobz said the Angels of Darkness is a novel confused almost anyone who read it. I read it three times before i understood completely what it transpired in there. Bottom line of the story: Astellan was delusional, Boreas sort of fell (not in actions but in his faith for the chapter) but despite that remained resolute and sacrificed himself. The moral of the story: All fallen one way or another are either: Traitors, Heretics or 'delusionalthinkiamaloyalist. The only one exempt from this is Cypher whom we dont know what he is. And if the above dont convince you do a googlefu and search the authors words about the line that nearly took our brains out. Learn why they accuse us. Its about a frigging name and nothing else. Other chapters have 100 more reasons to be ashamed. As for the 'gowns' I prefer them to be a flea bug. Also thats what monks wear in case nobody noticed it the last 800 years. So one can argue that we are more marines than anyone. I dont write those to convince you or anyone, those are facts and anyone who can read fluff and analyze it can deduce them. It not rocket science Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3127440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmo Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Yes you should. :) The fluff - dark, brooding and gothic makes it all worth it.....Not like some of the shiney posterboys out there (UM to mention just one) ;) And we ARE the First Legion! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3127441 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 As you may or not noticed there was some editing done by me because some side comments were less tasteful and against B&C rules. So let's keep this clean and tasteful . As for the OP, my personal opinion is if you have so many doubts about playing DA, maybe you chose the wrong army. It is you thhat have to convince yourself, not us or your friends. I chose DA, I don't like every piece of fluff about them and I just ignore the parts I don't like, or comments from my friends sayong they suck or whatever. It's my opinion that counts, not theirs so I keep on collecting and painting with my favourite army... heck i even tried selling them, making other armies and I never got to sell them completly nor using anything else than Codex DA.. that's how much I like them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3127520 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sviar Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Some thingsshould come easy or not at al. Building an army is a big commitment (time and money-wise) so you should not go into it half heratedly. Shop around, there are a number of marine armies out there with a number of play styles and real-life/historic references or indeed create your own. Just don't force yourself to like anything because it won't survive the test of time... I was about to write something like that. I know that fluff is important for many players, as is it for me. And if you can't connect with a chapter, then my suggestion is that you browse around the other chapters. 40k lexicanum is a good place to do that, there is so many chapters with their own personal touch, your bound to find a chapter that you really can connect with. I wish you the best of luck in finding what you seek. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3127716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Also, kindly give us your planetary address when you do decide to backstab the Lion and the Chapter choose another Chapter so we may come by to visit. :V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3127744 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGM-Azrael Posted July 21, 2012 Author Share Posted July 21, 2012 Lots of good advice brothers. I truly believe once an angel always an angel. So picking another army will be out of the question. Plus I already have a few hundred old marines and vehicles in Dark Angel lively in storage somewhere. So I think my best bet is to ignore the past few years of fluff or rewrite it myself. And some of you old timers would understand a little better about where I was coming from about Angels of Darkness, the origin of our name, dresses and the flame wars that went on back in the early days of this board. Now my problem is finding players, all the gamers and the store really only support Warmachine now. But at least I can start writing and painting again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3128212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Care to share what bothers you the fluff? We might be able to clarify it. Dont worry you are undergoing the 'I quit the dark angels syndrome'. I dont know a single DA fan that didnt go through it but i know only a couple ppl quit. I was on the same boat when i played my first battles in 5th and then i used the marine dex. I was like: 'Yup this army sucks,good thig i didnt paint them'. Then after a while i was at the local store discussing fluff and models. And all i saw was Mary Sues and flat power armored models, when i painted my company master i won a small competition and most people were in awe of the robbed bad :rolleyes: with the look of contempt. The dark angels are not something you can describe in a thread or through some text. I have learned that in order to understand and love the DA is akin to women: You need to shed blood and (manly) tears. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3128248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGM-Azrael Posted July 21, 2012 Author Share Posted July 21, 2012 Well during our early fluff we were the 1st and arguably the greatest legion. The Lion had the 2nd most victory’s only behind Horus during the crusade. During the HH the Dark Angels and Space Wolves were working together trying to get to terra. Russ wanted to reconquer some lost worlds but Lion wanted to go straight to terra. The DA and SW did go ahead and retake those worlds before heading back out. Horus sensing that they were close lowered his shields during the siege of terra. And let’s not forget the Fight that Russ and the Lion had and the time the Lion stabbed Russ through the heart. Paranoia was introduced by Gav in his book. Yes the DA had trust issues but paranoia is not the same. And if you have seen a friend that eventually had to be hospitalized because of paranoia and other problems then you would understand that the level the DA and the Lion is being portrayed would have destroyed them a long time ago as an effective fighting force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3128453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeslikethunder Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Wait for the new codex I say Well during our early fluff we were the 1st and arguably the greatest legion. The Lion had the 2nd most victory’s only behind Horus during the crusade. Actually the fluff was a bit more complex than that It had the SW winning the most battles and ultramarines bringing the most worlds into compliance in addition to the DA victories Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3128461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamwulf Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 In my mind, there are three components to an army: Playstyle: A rather broad category that includes how the army plays on the table, unit choices and options, and parity with other Codexs. Models: Let's face it, if you don't like the models, then you will hate assembling them to paint and play with. Also, this category includes unique models to the Codex. Fluff: Gotta have some good fluff behind the army. There has to be some reason why your army rips the heart out of the enemy and eats it while they watch! Order them in whatever importance you want. Add a 1-10 scale if you want. Then start to analyze your potential army. Here is how I analyze the Dark Angels at the dawn of 6th Edition: Playstyle: Unit selection just sucks for the Dark Angels. We have nothing unique like Thunderwolves, Sanguinary Guard, Storm Ravens, Storm Talons, Baal Preds, Furiso Dreads, Lone Wolves, Wolf Guard, Paladins, Purifiers, Vendettas, Psyker Battle Squads, etc. etc. I started listing all the bad stuff, and it was turning into a HUGE paragraph, so I'll concentrate on just the good stuff. If I don't mention something, it's because C:SM or some other Codex does it better. HQ's are OK. They are a step up from a Generic HQ choice in the C:SM. They allow us to monkey around the Force Org chart a bit which is awesome (Termy's, Bikes, and Speeders as troops choices). Belial is the diamond in the rough here. He isn't as powerful as other C:SM characters in Termy armor, but he unlocks Termy's as a troops choice and is really, really cheap. You can't go wrong taking him. Side note here: GW screwed the DA over in the Psyker department giving us level 1 Psykers only. :( Elites was where everything else was crammed in this Codex. The only good choice in this section to me are the Scouts. Yes, DA scouts are in the Elites section. It's too bad we didn't get Veteran Sergeant Namian as an upgrade character (like C:SM have Talion). Troops have one selection unless you take a special HQ. Tactical Troops. Fielded as a five or ten model squad only, they are 10-15 points cheaper then a regular C:SM Tactical Squad. However, you pay more for the options, and again, C:SM Tac Squads have more of them. They are a Tactical Squad. /shrug Fast Attack: The star here is the Ravenwing Attack Squad. Bikes, Attack Bikes, and a Land Speeder all in one package! Woot! Heavy Support: Nothing special here, and the lack of that special speaks volumes about the entire DA Codex. IN GENERAL, the competitiveness of the Dark Angels are solely lacking. We lack options, we are over priced, and we don't have any special wargear or options that will win the game for you. We have no hard hammer unit outside of the Deathwing. Frankly, there is nothing the DA can do that another Codex can't do better and cheaper. It's an uphill battle in every game. So if you want a challenge, DA are your army! Models: We lack a lot of unique models, but we have guys in robes, and the DA Upgrade sprue is AWESOME!. I'd love to have, say, Power Armored guys riding giant mechanical Space Lions into battle that can combine into one, giant Dreadknight kinda model, but... a fully painted and minor bits/conversions makes a DA army really stand out from the crowd. I think only the Blood Angels have a kit that compares to the upgrade sprue... and it's the Death Company box. Fluff: The DA have a long, and very dark fluff. It's spread across a lot of other Codexs. My favorite is the tidbit in the Black Templar Codex about the Crusade they went on with the DA, the BT captured someone... and only the DA came back. Implication being that the DA attacked the BT for their prisoner. Only one other chapter outright refuses to let the Inquisition or Imperiam meddle with their affairs... the Space Wolves. The Dark Angels quite possibly have the best fluff in the game. Play Dark Angels to have fun,. but don't expect to win. It's an uphill battle. On the plus side, we'll have a new codex soon, and hopefully I'll get my mechanical lions! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3128476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted July 21, 2012 Share Posted July 21, 2012 Paranoia was introduced by Gav in his book. Yes the DA had trust issues but paranoia is not the same. And if you have seen a friend that eventually had to be hospitalized because of paranoia and other problems then you would understand that the level the DA and the Lion is being portrayed would has destroyed them a long time ago as an effective fighting force. I think you are reading too much into it. Double and triple checking facts and not trusting is all as it gets. Nobody said that the Lion and the chapter needed hospitalization. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3128495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kewl Imp Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 I like the stories in general. I'm playing in a game of DeathWatch as a Dark Angel who didn't slide down the slope of insanity; he jumped down that cliff head fast. I need to read other chapter's fluff in greater detail but it seems to me that writers want to be careful when they write about Dark Angels because of the fans. The notes in the rereleased version of Fallen Angel is great.Gav was surprised how much conversation when Asteleon says The Lion waited to see who would win caused. If anyone taunts you about the suplices(the robes proper name), just make fun of thier chapter, to include, Wow you went of the Space Marine Codex, that must mean your army sucks so bad, you needed a smurf to help you out. I enjoy the fact they were robes. It makes the models stand out more to me. Plus, I'm more afraid of the guy in a robe with a chainsword then the one with sparkling armor. But you know thats entirely what you think of it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3129301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ajax Tlamunus Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 Point of order. A surplice is a tunic worn over a cassock or habit. It has to be worn over something, that's what the word means! The root is superpelliceum, from super, "over" and pellis, "fur." The typical dress of the Dark Angels is a cowl, although some artwork makes them resemble the religious habits of Trappist monks or the Franciscan friars... they never seem to have scapulars though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/256967-should-i-come-back-the-da/#findComment-3129319 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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