Rites of Battle v. Weaken Resolve

[Haranin]

Someone from my LGS noticed how evil weaken resolve is combined with psychic shriek. Not necessarily a bad thing since DA get access to telepathy. With Shriek only having a 12 inch range, a DA DW librarian deepstriking in with 5 buddies is a good delivery system.

 

So....

 

Rites of Battle - If the character is on the table, get to use his leadership.

 

Psychic shriek inflicts wounds based on leadership.

 

Weaken Resolve punches down that unit's leadership based on the number of pyschers in the the casting unit.

 

So would the interaction be IG cast weaken resolve. DA unit goes from X to X-9. Belial/chaptermaster laughs, raises the unit back to 10?

 

To get a DA unit with a chaptermaster/Belial on the table to NOT be leadership 10, I think the Rites of Battle character would need to take a weaken resolve hit first before the squad could get hit.

 

Anyone else experienced this/thought it out?

[MadDoc]

So would the interaction be IG cast weaken resolve. DA unit goes from X to X-9. Belial/chaptermaster laughs, raises the unit back to 10?

 

To get a DA unit with a chaptermaster/Belial on the table to NOT be leadership 10, I think the Rites of Battle character would need to take a weaken resolve hit first before the squad could get hit.

 

Anyone else experienced this/thought it out?

I think you'll find that thats not how it works.

 

Rites of Battle makes units effectively Leadership 10 for tests, Weaken Resolve reduces a units Leadership for that turn. A unit affected by Weaken Resolve has its Leadership reduced for that turn, if it has to test Rites of Battle means its Leadership 10 for that test but the Weaken Resolve modifier should be applied to that as well.

 

So for a max size Battle Psyker squad that would mean their effective Leadership of 10 for any tests would be reduced by 9 (to the minimum of 2 mandated by the power), no applying the powers effect and then ignoring it by reapplying Rites of Battle (which, as a constant effective, doesn't work that way).

 

Edit - Also, Rites of Battle wouldn't be of any use against Psychic Shriek anyway, as it applies only to tests (it doesn't actually modify their Leadership), so since Rites of Battle doesn't apply it would affect the unit based on its base Leadership (which is effected by Weaken Resolve).

[BigGumbo]

I'd second MadDoc's interpretation. I've always assumed that Rites of Battle applies before rather than after modifiers so it raises the unit's base Ld to 10 for the purposes of the test, which is then modified by whatever effects are in play - whether that's a specific psychic attack or the effects of losing a close combat.

 

Whether or not it's the letter of the rules, it seems pretty self-evident to me that a local, targeted demoralising effect cannot be overridden by the fact that a company master is still in play somewhere else on the battlefield.

[Brother Landrain]

Weaken Resolve(WR) does not affect a Rites of Battle(RoB) test, unless the Character with the Rites of Battle is affected himself by Weaken Resolve.

 

This is because the unit makes morale and pinning tests on the character with ROB's Leadership value.

The Ldof the Unit is never referenced, it doesnt say that they gain/have the Ld of the character.

And It doesnt matter what the units leadership actually is to begin with, or if it has been modified.

 

All Morale /Pinning tests are made using his leadership, ie. the character with RoB.

 

Psychic Shreik and RoB have no relationship at all, and yes, Weaken Resolve would make Psychic Shreik moreeffective.

[cypherthefallenangel]

Weaken Resolve(WR) does not affect a Rites of Battle(RoB) test, unless the Character with the Rites of Battle is affected himself by Weaken Resolve.

 

This is because the unit makes morale and pinning tests on the character with ROB's Leadership value.

The Ldof the Unit is never referenced, it doesnt say that they gain/have the Ld of the character.

And It doesnt matter what the units leadership actually is to begin with, or if it has been modified.

 

All Morale /Pinning tests are made using his leadership, ie. the character with RoB.

 

Psychic Shreik and RoB have no relationship at all, and yes, Weaken Resolve would make Psychic Shreik moreeffective.

+1. Thats how I read it.

[Haranin]

Thanks for the opinions! More the better.

 

View one is you apply the negatives for weaken resolve, but the unit still borrows the ld 10 via rites of battle.

 

View two is that you start ld 10 for rites of battle, then apply weaken resolve.

 

Anyone have an IG codex lying around willing to supply the subsection of text regarding unit leadership/modifer? Ie does the test operate like losing a fight by 3, or changing the leadership? Because in the first case, I think view two wins; and in the second view one wins.

[Bryan Blaire]

Whether or not it's the letter of the rules, it seems pretty self-evident to me that a local, targeted demoralising effect cannot be overridden by the fact that a company master is still in play somewhere else on the battlefield.

Actually, that's always exactly what I assumed it was: the Dark Angels are so well drilled in battle and their commanders so competent that even in the midst of everything else, the Masters are able to maintain tight control over the flow of battle through vox-connections, etc, even cutting through demoralizing effects. It's not self-evident at all that tightly controlled units wouldn't instantly react better to their Master's voice guiding them even in the presence of a witch/sorcerer messing around in their minds.

 

Also, Rites of Battle isn't written that it replaces their leadership value, it says tests are taken on the Master's leadership, as has been pointed out. This isn't so much an issue of the Rites of Battle rule as it is what does the Weaken Resolve do? The ability may lower the unit's Leadership, that's fine, but they aren't taking tests on their Leadership, they take tests on the Master's Leadership. What happens to the unit's Leadership score really isn't that big a deal with Rites of Battle still operating on the table.

[Brother Immolator]

Weather or not weaken resolve interferes with the psychic shrike attack is indifferent to the writes of battle. The codex under the company masters entry clearly states that rights of battle CANNOT be used for taking psychic tests. Ergo the discussion is a bit moot.

 

Ref PG 36 DA Codex.

[Haranin]

Its not a psychic test- psychic tests are for when you active a power or a force weapon.

 

Weaken resolve changes an units leadership.

 

Rites of battle lets all DA units borrow the leadership 10 of the warlord.

 

Psychic shriek inflicts 3d6-leadership wounds.

 

The DA side isn't taking psychic tests... the side with the Imperial Guard are.

[Bryan Blaire]

This situation actually has an easy resolution: as I said, Rites of Battle is only used for tests, specifically Morale, Pinning and Leadership tests, per page 36 of the Codex. If you aren't taking one of these tests, then the rule doesn't apply.

 

Psychic Shriek did not appear to require any of these tests to resolve when I glanced at it this morning. If this is true (someone else may need to go over Psychic Shriek and confirm that none of these tests are taken by the unit the power is used on) then Rites of Battle does nothing with regards to resolving this psychic attack. Rites of Battle does not replace a unit's Leadership entry, it lets the unit use the Master's Leadership value for specific tests.

 

I do not know the rules for Weaken Resolve, but if it does not specifically require a Morale, Pinning or Leadership test on the part of the unit it is used on, then Rites of Battle has no bearing or use on the resolution of the ability.

 

As I said, you can use Rites of Battle against psychic abilities, but only if they specifically require a Morale, Pinning or Leadership test on the part of the targeted DA unit and a Master is on the table. This can be seen in the case of Mind Worm if it were used on a DA unit while a Master is on the table. The selected target could use Rites of Battle to resolve the check because it requires a Leadership test.

[Brother Immolator]

Its not a psychic test- psychic tests are for when you active a power or a force weapon.

 

Weaken resolve changes an units leadership.

 

Rites of battle lets all DA units borrow the leadership 10 of the warlord.

 

Psychic shriek inflicts 3d6-leadership wounds.

 

The DA side isn't taking psychic tests... the side with the Imperial Guard are.

 

When you take leadership tests against specific psychic powers its a psychic test to cansel/save avoid blah blah said power.

 

Now my argument was not against weaken resolve specifically. My argument was that you cant use the rights of battle (thereby the company masters LD) on anything that has to do with psychic powers.

 

Psychic Shriek did not appear to require any of these tests to resolve when I glanced at it this morning. If this is true (someone else may need to go over Psychic Shriek and confirm that none of these tests are taken by the unit the power is used on) then Rites of Battle does nothing with regards to resolving this psychic attack. Rites of Battle does not replace a unit's Leadership entry, it lets the unit use the Master's Leadership value for specific tests.

 

What i said above with other words.

[Bryan Blaire]

When you take leadership tests against specific psychic powers its a psychic test to cansel/save avoid blah blah said power.

 

Now my argument was not against weaken resolve specifically. My argument was that you cant use the rights of battle (thereby the company masters LD) on anything that has to do with psychic powers.

That's actually not true. It doesn't say that anywhere in the rules for Rites of Battle. Rites of Battle specifically says that "other Dark Angels units may use his Leadership for Morale, Pinning or Leadership tests, but not Psychic tests." It doesn't say "on anything that has to do with psychic powers", it specifies only the Psychic test. Now, TBH, I don't think I ever actually had a 5th Edition rulebook, so I don't actually know what a Psychic test was in 5th, but I can say this for 6th: A Psychic test is not a Leadership test against specific psychic powers. A Psychic test is specified as a test the Psyker must pass to manifest a Psychic power. It is a Leadership test, but it is one where it specifically can not use the value of another model's value, it is always taken only on the Psyker's Leadership value. Note that the rulebook doesn't specify Deny the Witch as a Psychic test, nor does it specify any generic Leadership test required as part of a Psychic power usage to resist the effect as a Psychic test. Also, no where in the 6th Ed Errata/FAQ does it change Rites of Battle at all.

 

From all of this, we can reason that anything that specifies "Leadership test" is an occurrence where Rites of Battle can be used, regardless of whether it involves a Psychic power or not. The one place where we know that Rites of Battle can not be used is specifically when a Psyker takes a Psychic test to manifest a power, specified both by the 4th Ed DA Codex and the 6th Ed Rulebook.

 

In other words, if a Psychic power is successfully used on any Dark Angels unit while any Master or other unit with Rites of Battle as a rule is on the table and that Psychic power specifies a necessary test from the targeted unit to resolve the power's effect, such as Mindworm or Dominate, both of which require a Leadership test from a model or unit to resolve, or Terrify, which specifies an immediate Morale check, then the model or unit affected can, in fact, utilize the rule from Rites of Battle to make the check, because both those tests are specified as allowed for Rites of Battle, which has never been Errata'd/FAQ'd to specify anything other than what is written.

 

What i said above with other words.

That's not what I said. Read the above statements.

[Brother Immolator]

I am more confused now than before: Pending reply.

[Cypher 102]

If a Company Master is on the table then all other Dark Angels units may use his Leadership for Morale, Pinning, or Leadership tests, but not Psychic tests.

A Librarian cannot use the Master's leadership to cast Psychic Shriek or any other psychic power. A Dark Angels unit can use the Master's leadership for any Morale, Pinning, or Leadership tests caused as a result of a psychic power such as Dominate which requires the target unit to pass a leadership test to do anything.

 

Psychic Shriek . . . Roll 3D6 and subtract the target's Leadership . . .

Psychic Shriek does not cause a Morale, Pinning, or Leadership test. Rites of Battle has no relevance to Psychic Shriek whatsoever.

 

Multiple Modifiers

If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and finally apply any set values.

Weaken Resolve would subtract from the leadership, then Rites of Battle would set it to the Master's value. That is IF Rites of Battle is a modifier in the first place which I've seen arguments for either way. Even if it isn't a modifier and something different it would still work the same way in relation to Weaken Resolve.

 

Hopefully that clears things up.

[Bryan Blaire]

It's definitely not a modifier, it is a triggered ability based on a required test per the text of the rule. It does not replace or change a unit's Leadership value, it merely allows them to use a different unit's value. The original Leadership value for the unit still exists and will be used for any other checks as needed, provided it is not one of the ones that triggers Rites of Battle, which does not replace the unit's original Ld value.

[BigGumbo]

Having re-read the Rites of Battle Codex entry again today, I can see where Bryan Blaire and others are coming from. I'd be pretty uncomfortable with pushing that argument myself, for the reasons I gave upthread, but I certainly wouldn't go so far as to call it wrong (caveat: I don't have the IG 'dex to hand so I don't know whether that would clarify the effect of Weaken Resolve as regards Rites of Battle).

[pueriexdeus]

So the bottom line is that "Weaken Resolve" is useless against any unit that has a Commander on the table that can confer "Rights of Battle" to his units.

 

Seems as though its a win for the DA.

[Bryan Blaire]

It's not necessarily useless, because no one has yet actually said how the Weaken Resolve skill works...

 

If Weaken Resolve does not trigger a Morale, Pinning or Leadership test, then Rites of Battle does nothing. Rites of Battle only works if one of those tests are called for. As I said, it does nothing to the actual unit's Leadership value. It isn't a modifier or a replacement, it only works when triggered by one of the stated tests.

 

If Weaken Resolve requires none of the above tests, then the following is how the "spell chain" of Weaken Resolve and then Psychic Shriek would work against a DA unit:

-Psyker(s) declares Weaken Resolve usage and reduces Warp Charge by amount for the power

-Psyker declares target as DA Unit

-Psyker takes Psychic Test and passes

-DA Unit attempts to Deny the Witch and fails to nullify

-Leadership of the DA Unit is reduced by the number of Psykers in the casting unit (no Morale, Pinning or Leadership test is triggered so Rites of Battle doesn't come into play), down to lowest of 2 (from what I gather from above posts) - this becomes the DA unit's new Leadership value for the duration of the power

-Psyker(s) declares Psychic Shriek usage and reduces Warp Charge

-Psyker declares target as DA Unit

-Psyker takes Psychic Test and passes

-DA Unit attempts to Deny the Witch and fails to nullify

-DA Unit takes the 3d6-Leadership Value (as reduced by Weaken Resolve) wounds

 

No ifs, ands, or buts, this is how the chain would resolve (assuming that no Morale, Pinning or Leadership test is triggered, therefore no usage of Rites of Battle).

 

Now, let's adjust that chain a little, and instead of Psychic Shriek being used, Terrify is used on a Deathwing squad:

-Psyker(s) declares Weaken Resolve usage and reduces Warp Charge by amount for the power

-Psyker declares target as Deathwing squad

-Psyker takes Psychic Test and passes

-Deathwing squad attempts to Deny the Witch and fails to nullify

-Leadership of the Deathwing squad is reduced by the number of Psykers in the casting unit (no Morale, Pinning or Leadership test is triggered so Rites of Battle doesn't come into play), down to lowest of 2 (from what I gather from above posts) - this becomes the Deathwing squad's new Leadership value for the duration of the power

-Psyker(s) declares Terrify usage and reduces Warp Charge

-Psyker declares target as Deathwing unit

-Psyker takes Psychic Test and passes

-Deathwing squad attempts to Deny the Witch and fails to nullify

-Deathwing unit is now subject to the Terrify power as described in the BGB and takes a Morale check, but because Belial in on the table, instead of taking the Morale check on their newly modified Leadership value due to Weaken Resolve, they instead take the check on Belial's Leadership value, as normal, because a Morale check was triggered and therefore Rites of Battle can be used as the rule is specifically written to allow this

 

Now, if instead, Weaken Resolve calls for a Morale, Pinning or Leadership test as any part of its resolution, then Rites of Battle would be triggered and that test would be inserted at the appropriate point in the above resolution chain.

 

Edits: tried to improve readability

[Cypher 102]

Sounds right to me.

[pueriexdeus]

Exactly what I thought. It will depend on the psychic power forcing a Morale, Pinning or Leadership test. If it does RoB works, if not then RoB does nothing for the targeted DA unit.

[Brother Immolator]

I still fail to see how some stern words can counter a mindblowing sorcery but we are not discussing the fluff of the matter i guess.

[Bryan Blaire]

Honestly, I don't really know, Brother Immolator, but maybe the DA and their commanders have actually trained to counter specifically those occurrences? In the Ferrus Manus story in the Primarchs anthology, one of the Iron hands commanders has limited success trying to get his men to recognize that mentally altering sorcery is being used, perhaps the Dark Angels commanders words actively work against it somehow, they know trigger words, etc, to bring their men out of induced stupors, etc.

 

Really though, how can a non-psyker unit do anything that would prevent a psychic power from being used, and yet we have the Deny the Witch allowed each and every time a psychic power is used.

[Brother Immolator]

I guess it all sums up to the individual squads will. It would make sense that the DA been a heavily indoctrinated chapter (more so than others) and steamed into iron discipline instilled by the chaplains, might have the mental fortitude to resist psychic assaults. Hm.... need to think more on that i guess.

[march10k]

As I see it, weaken resolve reduces the LD of the target (tactical squad, for example).

 

Say it's reduced to 2, the minimum. Okay, now, the squad finds reason to take a leadership test (losing combat, for example). Instead of LD2, you use the captain's LD10, because of rites of battle (unless the captain is in the squad!).

 

That is a HUGE way that RoB defends against weaken resolve. Of course, being fearless is usually better than RoB...

 

HOWEVER, since psychic scream doesn't require the target to take a LD test, RoB doesn't attach, and therefore, the target's LD (2, in this case) is used, and tactical marines start dropping like flies.

 

/edit/ I prefer Purgatus to weaken resolve... the effect is less (3 points, IIRC), but permanent. And a LD7 Eldrad is freakin hilarious when you have a LD10 PH under 5th edition rules. "And now, the unmanning of a girly elf cheese-wizard." Anyway, slapping purgatus on a DA Captain would sting...that pretty much wipes RoB, since the units' LD8 exceeds his new LD of 7...