DIY successor chapter - Wolf Brothers

[Furious Retreat]

Hi

 

I'm in the process of doing my own DIY chapter and want to make them a Space Wolf / Wolf Brother "successor" chapter.

I would like to state that what attracted me to the hobby initially is the ability to "create" my own chapter. I like the look of the SW miniatures and I like the way they play, BUT I would also like to create something that is "my own".

 

I understand that some people would consider this heresy, but each of us enjoy the hobby for different reasons. Having said that, I would like to stay within the fluff as much as possible, so your feedback is much appreciated.

 

I've read the do's and don'ts on the forum, checked the lexicannon and reread all of the SW novels I own and I've come up with the bare bones of a semi plausible theory.

 

1) Old; 3'rd or 4'th founding, Chapter originally from Raptors (Raven Guard) gene seed. The bulk of the chapter was destroyed shortly after its founding, by a Ork asteroid strike on their home planet. Just over 2 companies left, no first co veterans left, no tech priests, no Librarians, only a single apothacary (the most senior one?) left with no gene seed, bar the unharvested gene seed in the survivors.(not a lot)

 

2) newly elected chapter master swears an oath to do whatever it takes to ensure the Chapter keeps on fighting for as long as possible and give it a chance of survival. Decides to keep the issue secret from the Imperium and starts using IG auxiliaries en masse as a stop gap measure. (fits in nicely with new 6'th edition allies rules)

 

3) At some stage the chapter runs across a Wolf Brothers Great Company (name etc?), saves the Great Co bacon in some way (still need to elaborate, will need to be something big). The Wolf Brothers Great Co is on their way to the eye of Terror, to find The Russ or die gloriously in the attempt, as the Wolf Brothers chapter has just been disbanded, due to genetic instability.

 

4) Out of (a) gratitude (b) the slim hope that something might be salvaged of the genetic legacy of the Wolf Brothers, the Wolf Brother Wolf Lord (?) gives them half of his stock of gene seed and some Wolf Priest, Iron Priests and Rune Priests as well as some Wolf Guard to help with the rebuilding of the chapter.

 

After reading the above i seem to have more questions than answers.

 

a) What would be big enough to convince a Wolf Lord to give half his gene seed to save another chapter?(?)

b) Do they keep it secret? (looking at the fluff, I would say yes?)

c) If they keep it secret, why do they keep it secret? (shame/ fear of persecution?)

d) Do the SW know?

e) If they know how did they find out?

 

Comments and critic appreciated.

[Wulfebane]

I'll be the first to say it. There is no other Space Wolf successor other than the Wolf Brothers. That's been pretty definitive throughout most lore and dev talks.

 

Most peoples' work-arounds for this have been to use the 13th Company as a catch-all for Lost Companies. They don't necessarily have to literally be lost in a "where are my keys?" fashion.. more like lost their way. Generally, this is for people wanting to use the SW codex for a counts-as army, and claim their Wolf Lord did not agree with Great Wolf Jimmy's choice in dinner that night, so they left the Fang to find a better meal, etc (aka they made up a story to split from the Wolves' political agenda).

 

However, from what you're saying, one option you mention is wanting to have your army as a continuation of the Wolf Brother geneseed... which, fluffwise, miiiight be plausible, though that area of lore knowledge is something I tend not to bother with.

 

Bottom line - "It's your army. Do what you want." Just don't be shocked when you've got a lynch mob outside your door.

[bob10182]

I really don't have answers but maybe some inspiration, for question:

 

a) What would be big enough to convince a Wolf Lord to give half his gene seed to save another chapter?(?)

 

Maybe a rune priest or wolf character from the 13th company made contact with the Wolf Brothers and presciently informed them of their demise or loss.

 

B) Do they keep it secret? (looking at the fluff, I would say yes?)

Yeah, I like the secrecy aspect and it would let you build on your fluff.

c) If they keep it secret, why do they keep it secret? (shame/ fear of persecution?)

 

Once again I think you could use a foretelling from a 13th Company character that says" By the will of Russ you must not utter a breath of this or he will not return ", I guess it doesn't have to be that corny, but you get the idea.

 

d) Do the SW know?

I think the innner circle of the Great Company knows.

 

e) If they know how did they find out?

Perhaps Russ spoke of it before he left or he left a ciphered message that is discovered by a Rune Preist or a Wolf Lord. ,

 

 

I don't want to shoot down any of your ideas and it sounds like a fun project. I hope some of these ideas help or at least let you go in a direction that you desire.

[hendrik]

-in battle of the fang

certain compagnies of the wolf brothers are shown to be traitors and followers of chaos

.

-sharing geneseed is something that is generally not done, as it's THE most precious possesion any chapter has.

-Most sources also seem to suggest that the space wolves geneseed only works on fenrisians (and terrans, but that was when the big E was still around and everything was possible)

as you already knew there are a lot of stretches needed to make your fluff work.

my main question is though, why do you want our geneseed? are the extended canines,leathery hide and curse of the wulfen crucial to your armies fluff? I ask because counterattack can be easely explained by chapter tactics. with the way acute senses has changed (now works on our outflanking forces) it can be explained by the presence of a nearby battlebarge, coordination the assault.

[Furious Retreat]

wulfbaine

 

I knew that lots of people would oppose the whole concept (sort of like the female Space Marine argument[of which I am not a advocate]) and I accepted that before i posted here. Interestingly enough, going through all of the fluff I have access to and all of this forums and the dakka forum, a specific line in the codex gets quoted quite a lot, the one that goes something like this. The Space Wolves was only split once into the Wolf Brothers etc , etc. Of course that is the SW's. With the Wolf Brothers, the fluff is sparse, we know they were disbanded approximately 600 - 800 years after the second founding(going by Battle for the Fang), but no details are given as to what this entails or whether they had any successor chapters or what happened to their gene seed. So the way I choose to interpret this is that there is a possible gap for me to create my own chapter with gene seed linked to the SW's

 

Ruizairborne28

 

a) I am going to use this in combination with my original idea that my chapter helps out the WB Great Co and that the Wolf Lord was mightily impressed by their ferociousness and ability to knock back large quantities of mead.

b) I was planning on building on the secrecy fluff, hence my use of the Raptors as the original core around which the chapter is built.

c) going to give this a thought. i am sure I can think of something additional to throw in the mix.

d) I think the SW should not know, that my chapter goes to great lengths to ensure that the SW's do not find out (not sure why not yet). The simple answer would be that they were instructed by the 13'th Co Rune priest not to, but why?

 

hendrik

 

Lemon Russ is my favorite Primarch and I want my chapter associated with him. The extended canines,leathery hide and curse of the wulfen is just a added bonus. I want a chapter who's gene seed can ultimately be traced back to him.

[hendrik]

Good choice for a favourite primarch lad! ;) well let's start with the first things first then, how are the wolf brothers organised in your mind? are they organised as an identical copy of the space wolves, or would they follow the codex astartes like guilliman wished at the time (remember the wolf brothers were onyl formed because leman russ had to split up his legion to please his brothers.

 

If they are organised in the exact matter as the space wolves we run into the problem that a wolf lord is unable to decide anything about the geneseed. Geneseed is the stuff of the wolf priest and those answer only to the great wolf. the question you should ask yourself now is "why would the great wolf give away our precious geneseed". the answer "they helped them out during battle X" won't cut it as geneseed is by far the most precious thing any chapter can own, it's even worth more than a battlecruiser, especially in such quantities!

If i might suggest something I'd say go a darker, more sinistre way! what if the wolfbrothers knew they were on trail for genetic instability and instead agreed with the already deminished compagnies to infiltrate your chapter. the original commander knows that he won't be able to get his chapter to full fighting strength anytime soon and together they join forces, each for their own agenda (the wolfbrothers who join you to avoid purgation, the original chapter to keep at fighting strength). this plot immediatly gives you an extra reason for secrecy as such an act goes against the codex astartes and in general jsut smells so fishy the inquisition wouldn't doubt to declare them traitors!

 

this way not even the space wolves would be aware of those wolf brothers their fate since not much is known to them what happened to the wolf brothers, (source battle fo the fang)

[Aqui]

If you want a Space Wolf successor, then why not use the Wolf Brothers themselves, and state quite clearly, that your Marines are those in that Chapter before they were disbanded. I dare say that many will have the counter argument that using a Chapter that was disbanded early on in a "modern" battle (ie 41st Millennium) is not "right" or "fluffy", but I've seen so many Loyalist Luna Wolf/Sons Of Horus, Thousand Sons etc, etc armies playing Armies that were Founded so much later on, that as far as I'm concerned it matters very little.

 

If you want to play using a Space Wolf successor, look no further than the official one. Let's face it, many Chapters that gamers play are either extinct, or on the verge of extinction according to the fluff (Lamenters, Scythes of the Emperor, Rainbow Warriors, Flesh Tearers, Celestrial Lions to name but a few!) but has it stopped them? :) No.

 

Plus, if you wanted to give them a history there's little stopping you from doing that either - GW has given them very little fluff, so you could build their History in a manner that suits you, within reason :P

 

Wolf Brothers - Do Russ proud ;)

[Khine]

Good choice for a favourite primarch lad! ;) well let's start with the first things first then, how are the wolf brothers organised in your mind? are they organised as an identical copy of the space wolves, or would they follow the codex astartes like guilliman wished at the time (remember the wolf brothers were onyl formed because leman russ had to split up his legion to please his brothers.

 

If they are organised in the exact matter as the space wolves we run into the problem that a wolf lord is unable to decide anything about the geneseed. Geneseed is the stuff of the wolf priest and those answer only to the great wolf. the question you should ask yourself now is "why would the great wolf give away our precious geneseed". the answer "they helped them out during battle X" won't cut it as geneseed is by far the most precious thing any chapter can own, it's even worth more than a battlecruiser, especially in such quantities!

If i might suggest something I'd say go a darker, more sinistre way! what if the wolfbrothers knew they were on trail for genetic instability and instead agreed with the already deminished compagnies to infiltrate your chapter. the original commander knows that he won't be able to get his chapter to full fighting strength anytime soon and together they join forces, each for their own agenda (the wolfbrothers who join you to avoid purgation, the original chapter to keep at fighting strength). this plot immediatly gives you an extra reason for secrecy as such an act goes against the codex astartes and in general jsut smells so fishy the inquisition wouldn't doubt to declare them traitors!

 

this way not even the space wolves would be aware of those wolf brothers their fate since not much is known to them what happened to the wolf brothers, (source battle fo the fang)

 

You gave me another thought with your whole dark/sinister method.

 

OP's chapter fights along side the Space wolves many times and learns the potential of the Space wolf Gene-seed. As they are a successor of Corax's legacy they start to covert the genetic material in the hopes that it might be a solution to their woes.

 

Say there was a great company that found itself stranded on a planet due to say ... i don't know .. their space flight capable craft were all destroyed fighting against enemy [insert whoever]. Before all the craft were destroyed, someone ( probably not one of the space wolves due to pride ) sent out a call for aid. The OP's chapter is the only one to hear/come to the great companies aid. However, they get there to late and they barely manage to get to the last remaining wolves after annihilating the enemy. The dying Wolf Lord asks the chapter master of the OP's chapter to collect the geneseed of the fallen and return it to Fenris with tales of their glory. However, the chapter master decides to keep the genetic material for themselves and sets about securing it for his chapter's future in secret.

 

The gene-seed is used in the creation of new marines as well as the infusion of the Canis Helix. eventually it is successful and gradually it is bred into the chapter while stocks of the original gene-seed is grown in secret within suitable candidates for tithing.

 

Plausible?

[Furious Retreat]

Thanks all for your input, much appreciated.

My most important concern has been answered; Whether it is possible that the gene seed of the Wolf Brothers could be utilized for a successor chapter (in some format) without all of the normal "SW's have no success or Chapters" responses.

 

hendrik - thanks, going to use that

 

Khine - thanks, a little too grim dark for my taste, I'll be using the stranded ship element, but not the stealing of the gene seed portion. I'm envisioning my chapter as having a bit more honour than that.

 

I'm playing with the idea that the gene seed mutates more over the centuries and although the end results becomes more stable(to an extent), it diversifies with "sub - species" of the Canis evolving.

The great co's evolve into clans, with the different sub species grouped into clans:

Clan Canis Lupus, The Gray Wolves (The First 100)

Clan Canis Latrans, The Prairie Wolves

Clan Canis Dirus, The Dire Wolves

Clan Canis Brachyurus, The Black Maned Wolves

Clan Canis Spelaeus, The Cave Bears

Clan Canis Maritimus, The Polar Bears

Clan Canis Abyssinian, The Night Wolves

Clan Canis Chrysocyon, The Artic Wolves

Clan Canis Hyaenidae, The Spotted Heyenas

Clan Canis Pictus, The Painted Wolves

 

The Bloodclaw squads, would now be called Bloodline squads who's "secondary characteristics" have not kicked in. This fall in nicely with different sizes of clans, with clan Canis Pictus (Painted Wolves) being much larger for eg, than clan Canis Spelaeus (The Cave Bears). Certain clans would also have many more lone wolf equivalents for eg than others as their Canis would have a predisposition towards it.

 

Thoughts?

[Octavulg]

Why not just have a chapter that likes wolves but doesn't have Space Wolves geneseed?

 

Alternately, do a Cursed Founding chapter and claim that they were messing with the wolf geneseed to avoid [notorious problem of Space Wolf geneseed].

[Furious Retreat]

Why not just have a chapter that likes wolves but doesn't have Space Wolves geneseed?" - LR is my favorite primarch and I want my DIY Chapter linked to him and his genetic legacy

 

"Alternately, do a Cursed Founding chapter and claim that they were messing with the wolf geneseed to avoid [notorious problem of Space Wolf geneseed]." - This is my fall back option. At this stage I am still exploring the Wolf Brothers gene seed option. I prefer it, although nothing is set in stone. The fluff on the Wolf Brothers is so sparse that I think it is extremely viable. IMO this gives me space for the creation of my own chapter.

[Octavulg]

...Except the Wolf Brothers were disbanded for genetic instability (and when talking about Space Wolf geneseed, that's saying something). That's kind of a big obstacle to them having successors/knockoffs/giving away all their stuff - their geneseed would be useless, even if they did give it away.

 

The Cursed Founding gives you more space, fits better with the existing fluff (since it involves the problem being addressed in-universe in a logical fashion), and doesn't require you to explain why genetic instability is bad enough to disband a chapter but not so bad it stops the geneseed from being used.

[Khine]

...Except the Wolf Brothers were disbanded for genetic instability (and when talking about Space Wolf geneseed, that's saying something). That's kind of a big obstacle to them having successors/knockoffs/giving away all their stuff - their geneseed would be useless, even if they did give it away.

 

The Cursed Founding gives you more space, fits better with the existing fluff (since it involves the problem being addressed in-universe in a logical fashion), and doesn't require you to explain why genetic instability is bad enough to disband a chapter but not so bad it stops the geneseed from being used.

 

dont forget there is also the dark founding.

[Furious Retreat]

Had a rethink:

 

I am going to go with the 21'st (Cursed) founding. My chapter will not be quite as old as I wanted, but I just cant be bothered to argue with all of the fluff fanatics. I'm still going to use the Wolf Brothers gene seed as the base for my chapter. Going to go down the route of an attempt to correct the gene seed flaw of the Wolf Brothers, Old Stockpiled stock of the brothers was used and experimented upon.

 

This was successful for about the first 300 years and then the problems with the gene seed started. I am going to use this to lever in my clan idea as the mutation of the gene seed radically altered the dynamic of my chapter who up until then was a codex chapter. After the gene seed is stabilised (over a thousand years or so) the companies are ordered via clan affiliation.

 

I've expanded the number of clans up to 15. Certain clans (the Bear ones) are very small maybe only about 30 individuals in the whole chapter. Play wise these will be represented by lone wolves and I am already thinking of some great conversions. Surly individuals who roam the battlefield singling out enemy champions and challenging them to single combat. (Which fits in nicely with the 6'Th edition)

 

My scouts will be organised into two companies of about 50 individuals each, Clan Canis Mesomelas, The Black Jackals and Clan Canis Vulpus, The Golden Foxes

The Golden Foxes will represent the "normal SW types of scouts", whilst the Black Jackals will be the covert arm of the chapter, running the chapters espionage network and doing all of the "black ops" stuff.

Clan Canis Lycan, The Werewolves will be my chapters equivalent of the 13'th Co, with a much greater proportion of "were's" and is the secret shame of the chapter.

 

Revised clan list below:

Clan Canis Lupus, The Gray Wolves (The First 100)

Clan Canis Latrans, The Prairie Wolves

Clan Canis Dirus, The Dire Wolves

Clan Canis Brachyurus, The Black Maned Wolves

Clan Canis Spelaeus, The Cave Bears

Clan Canis Maritimus, The Polar Bears

Clan Canis Abyssinian, The Night Wolves

Clan Canis Chrysocyon, The Artic Wolves

Clan Canis Hyaenidae, The Spotted Heyenas

Clan Canis Pictus, The Painted Wolves

Clan Canis Ferox, The Wild Wolves

Clan Canis Alpinus, The Wild Dogs

Clan Canis Mesomelas, The Black Jackals

Clan Canis Vulpus, The Golden Foxes

Clan Canis Lycan, The Werewolves

 

 

Thoughts?

[Wolfsbane]

By the time the 21st founding comes about Battle for the Fang has already happened. It clearly states into the cannon that after the Wolf Brothers the Space Wolves will never attempt another founding.

 

If you want to have a link to Leman Russ, play wolves. Choose a wolf lord that has not been fleshed out, there are a lot, and run with it.

 

Again, you can do whatever you want. In the long run it's your time and money. I would play your army happily, be friendly, bull $hi** while playing, and enjoy the hobby. But I won't want to hear about your army's fluff as I'm a loyal SW player, if you want to use the wolf codex and not play wolves, but play wolves, I am easily annoyed.

[Marshal Rohr]

Why not just use the codex and make your own wolf chapter with a different Primarch.

[Octavulg]

I'd love the appropriate Battle of the Fang quote, Wolfsbane.

 

Two comments, Furious Retreat.

 

1) Cursed Founding geneseed never really stablizes much.

 

2) So, what's their, y'know. Curse?

[Argyle]

Everyone is always so quick to jump on the "there was only one space wolf souccessor chapter" piece of fluff. I am not going to argue that but i will state that i have read nothing that convinces me of this 100%. To clarify, everything i read about the wolf brothers states that they are "the onky KNOWN space wolf successor". Who's to say that maybe there was an unknown one...or two? Perhaps there is somewhere i can read where it states that there was 100% not another split rather than an open for interpretation comment like "only known"?

 

Too tell the truth i didnt even remotely question the possibility until reading battle of the fang and some of the very secretive things taking place therein. Any ways, my wolf force in the making is pure blood so this is of no nevermind to me but its enough for me to accept a successor without question...until i read something more.definitive.

[hendrik]

how about instead of giving the OP the finger because of the "there has only been 1 SW succesor" we try to give him constructing options to make a chapter (be it declared disbanded/heretic) that uses the wolf brothers geneseed*? has the fang truely lost its friendly atmosphere?

 

 

*when typing this i just realised any succesor uses the geneseed from the original legion and not any of the succesors so we're looking at a way how a chapter could contain marines with the SW geneseed/have acces to the SW geneseed. certain people has listed quite a few possibilities, but also a couple of errors (tsuch as BOTF happening before the cursed founding)

 

PS: kudos to you furious for wanting to stick to your idea despite everyone saying no, that displays an amount of stubornness russ would be proud of! :tu:

[Octavulg]

The Battle of the Fang was in M32, Cursed FOunding was in M35 or M36, depending how screwed up GW's fluff is at any one time.

 

Successors can use the geneseed of successors. See various examples in Imperial Armour 9 and 10.

[Flying Rook]

Hey Furious Retreat!

 

I like your ideas! I especially like your ideas for the different clans representing the different companies. I say ignore the naysayers and do what you want! Haters going to be hating and you can't stop that... I play a Space Wolf successor chapter called the Frost Giants. Not because I don't like Russ and the Space Wolves fluff - I just didn't care for their color scheme! I like the Space Wolves scheme in the new 6th Edition rulebook though, they look amazing! (I went for a lighter grey with bluish highlights - sort of like glacier ice.) Anyway, when I plop my minis down on the table, everybody always knows they are Space Wolves. A couple people have asked about my non-standard paint scheme and when I tell them I don't like the normal paint scheme, they often agree about the paint scheme and we start rolling for missions and deployment. It is a non-issue for everybody except the most "hardcore" SW fans...

 

I also agree with Argyle... the fluff has always been that the Wolf Brothers are the only KNOWN Space Wolf successor. Who really knows what the truth* is... I think GW purposefully leaves the fluff open and vague so that we, the players and hobbyists, can create our own stories and legends. So enjoy yourself and your successor chapter! Have fun, roll lots of dice and kill lots of Xenos scum!

 

Flying Rook

 

* Like there is any "truth" in a fictional world in the far future! Other than there is only war! :)

[Wulfebane]

I play a Space Wolf successor chapter called the Frost Giants. Not because I don't like Russ and the Space Wolves fluff - I just didn't care for their color scheme! I like the Space Wolves scheme in the new 6th Edition rulebook though, they look amazing! (I went for a lighter grey with bluish highlights - sort of like glacier ice.) Anyway, when I plop my minis down on the table, everybody always knows they are Space Wolves. A couple people have asked about my non-standard paint scheme and when I tell them I don't like the normal paint scheme, they often agree about the paint scheme and we start rolling for missions and deployment.

 

 

My guess is you still use (in majority) SW models in a blue-grey scheme, so it wouldn't be hard to guess you're using the codex. And most players don't prefer the codex scheme, so you won't find many disagreeing with the scheme choice. But it doesn't sound like you introduce them as a Successor chapter rather than a SW army, so why would you encounter any problems? All your reasoning for the paint scheme, sounds more like a Lost Company. I don't hear a reason as to why you'd feel you need it to be a Successor instead. If you have a rich, fluffy background like the OP intends to have, then maybe.. But on paint scheme alone, the reasoning is a bit thin. Personal perspective, of course, as you can do whatever you want with your little soldiers.

[Wolfsbane]

I'd love the appropriate Battle of the Fang quote, Wolfsbane.

 

Currently my book is being borrowed. My constant talk about wolf lords falling from high orbit onto primarchs got him to finally start reading it. I shall if it is returned in the following week.

 

 

The Battle of the Fang was in M32, Cursed FOunding was in M35 or M36, depending how screwed up GW's fluff is at any one time.

 

Successors can use the geneseed of successors. See various examples in Imperial Armour 9 and 10.

 

Nope, it is clearly written within the book that *spoilers*

the 11 companies of wolves that were lured away ended up fighting their mutated successor chapter in an trap set my Magnus. The Wolf Brothers were a huge part of the story.

 

[Octavulg]

Are you disagreeing with the bit about the Battle of the Fang happening before the Cursed Founding or the bit about successors having successors?

[Khine]

Are you disagreeing with the bit about the Battle of the Fang happening before the Cursed Founding or the bit about successors having successors?

 

i think he was arguing the BoTF being before the cursed founding and miss quoted. Otherwise i am similarly confused as you.

 

@ wolfbane. If you are using that as an example that no successor chapter ( of any legion origin) can ever be the template of another successor chapter, then you are mistaken.

 

There is atleast two successors of successors.

 

Mantis Warriors > come from > Marauders > come from > White scars.

 

and

 

Marines Errant > come from > Eagle Warriors > come from > Ultramarines.