Thade's Vanguard Experiments in 6th

[thade]

Some of you seemed to express interest (or directly ask me) about my thoughts on Vanguard in sixth Ed., so - to that end - I thought I'd start dumping my thoughts in a thread for you all to question, analyze, and help me work through. :) Keep in mind that I have a penchant for foot-slogging vanguard and that I adamantly refuse to field a Hammernator unit (or any melee Terminator unit). Something else to keep in mind is that I am still using the BA codex per my personal restrictions (nothing BA-centric for me, so no DC, no Blood Talons, no Storm Raven, no Baal Preds, no Sang. Guard...tho I occasionally allow myself a Mephiston Counts-as). I field my army as if they are Codex Astartes except for two things: Apothecaries (counts-as Sanguinary Priests) and Fast Rhinos. My librarians use Biomancy and probably will continue to do so.

 

With the nerf to Furious Charge, the apothecaries are giving me FNP on 5+ and +1S on the charge...and that's it. Those are significant, of course, but that doesn't mean the stuff in here will not apply at all to vanilla Vanguard. Vanilla Vanguard gets stuff that I don't: relic blades being the big one, but their storm shields are also 5 points cheaper than mine.

 

Since I've already posted at least two threads on why Vanguard is still useful in the face of Hammernators, and why I think it's a bad idea to engage Hammernators in melee at all, we will eschew that discussion and pretend Hammernators don't exist for now. ;)

 

Here is the new load-out I am trying:

Full ten veterans on foot:

• Serg. with power sword.
  
• Vet with Power Fist.
  
• Two vets with Storm shields.
  
• Fill out with CC/Pistol vets.
  

They get themselves a Land Raider to ride around in...right now a Crusader so I can fit two Terminator ICs with them (apothecary and librarian).

 

On the charge a vanilla Vanguard vet will deliver 4 attacks (2 base, 1 offhand, 1 for the charge) as will any with power weapons, though you'll notice I went pretty light on those to start. This unit, not counting ICs I'll stick with them, will come in at I4 with 34 (7*4 + 2*3) attacks. ("Hitting like an Ork player" I like to say.) We've all been over the mathhammer on expected wounds and such (some of you who are super exacting on this can feel free to chime in on those numbers, I'd rather paint and focus on work-numbers while I do this :) ) so I'm going to focus on non-numeric tactics and how things have changed.

 

I've only taken these guys through two games so far and immediately two fundamental differences pop out. First, the challenge means that my sergeant needs to be kitted out to deal with some other guy that has a power weapon and since I've lost I5 on the charge, I am seriously considering taking a storm shield/power weapon (possibly a power axe or even a fist) on the sergeant. As for just taking a fist, as I used to, I'm seeing this already in my tactical squads: drawn challenges, fist-to-fist. Basically the guy that swings first will win if he wounds...if we both have fists, well...both models are probably gone. A storm shield can resolve this...something that is an option to both my Assault troops (which are Scoring for BA) and my Vanguard.

 

The second fundamental difference is storm shields...or, more generally, in-unit positioning of individual models. The first two times I charged targets in last night's game, I sort of fell into "the old flow" as it were and just moved up as far as I could in order to firmly engage. The result both times (coincidently due to terrain features I hadn't taken into account) was that both storm shields did not make Base to Base. The result of this was that the Obliterators they charged were able to each cap a Vanguard model in BtB, since the shields weren't able to do their jobs (soaking those hits for everybody). The Vanguard was pretty durable (due in no small part to how many 5s I rolled for my FNP) but won't consistently be so if I don't have those stormshields in positions where they can help. Not just in melee either, but after the inevitable wrecking of my Land Raider, they will need to position themselves to at least make a modest attempt at intercepting stray AP3 or better ranged shots. It may actually require three or even four storm shields (but that price climbs sooo fast) so that I can get shields at 12, 3, 6, and 9 o'clock.

 

This is both rather difficult (especially since it's new) and stupendously awesome (because it's a fun way to think about the game). My Vanguard (or any other unit, of course) can be effectively flanked either in shooting or in assault. This really speaks to me in terms of how important mobility is; it is most definitely time for me to revisit my Vanguard Jump Team.

 

An obvious aside here: suddenly that 2+ save on Terminators is incredible: sticking that terminator IC out front so he can laugh in the face of small arms fire for the good of the unit is very helpful, and that 2+ Look Out, Sir! means should his 2+ and FNP both fail, he doesn't need to take the hit for it. On the other hand, I charged Oblits twice (well, the second time, they charged me) and I despite my overwhelming flood of attacks, 2+ laughed them off. It took the Vets three player turns each time to wear down the Obliterators. Quite something to step beyond the numbers and actually see how tough they were in practice (esp with my Opponent's dice running hot for saves).

 

Okay, that's the first round. More brain dumping the more Vanguard Vets sacrifice their lives in the Emperor's name.

[Koremu]

Still amused that you're the go-to guy for Vanguard use, padawan :P

[thade]

Still amused that you're the go-to guy for Vanguard use, padawan :P

Well, speak up, sensei. ;) What have you been doing?

[Koremu]

Still amused that you're the go-to guy for Vanguard use, padawan :P

Well, speak up, sensei. ;) What have you been doing?

Thinking.

 

Specifically, thinking that Vanguard have been boosted significantly by a LOT of other things having their "alpha-strike assault" ability removed.

 

Now Flanking Assaults are out, Vanguard Assault from Deep Strike is a lot more unique, which is useful.

[Ricter]

An obvious aside here: suddenly that 2+ save on Terminators is incredible: sticking that terminator IC out front so he can laugh in the face of small arms fire for the good of the unit is very helpful, and that 2+ Look Out, Sir! means should his 2+ and FNP both fail, he doesn't need to take the hit for it.

 

Just to be clear, if mixed saves are in the unit, you must LOS before you make the save. You can only make your save and then LOS if the unit has the same save for all models, which is not the case here.

[thade]

Specifically, thinking that Vanguard have been boosted significantly by a LOT of other things having their "alpha-strike assault" ability removed.

This is true, though my understanding is that a unit is only restricted from assaulting in the first player's first turn...not the second player's first turn. I can't cite the rules (at work, no book) but I remember it being pointed out on the OR board recently.

 

Now Flanking Assaults are out, Vanguard Assault from Deep Strike is a lot more unique, which is useful.

That I like, esp. now with Reserves being 3+ as soon as Turn 2 now. Going second will allow your opponent to take two turns and set-up to dig into you...and Vanguard can take advantage of the 'rear flank' of a unit (where people are hiding their special weapons from gun-fire).

 

I haven't tried yet, but I'm leaning very strongly towards a Jump Team vanguard that's 5-7 with very few upgrades. Provided they drop in to support an on-going (or imminent) assault and do not drop in deep and alone, I see them being a good time.

 

Even if not using HI, jump packs are still interesting as mobility is a huge factor for assault-oriented units now (flanking still). Hammer of Wrath - while not useable from HI - adds even more S4 attacks to their already formidable number of swings on the charge.

[thade]

An obvious aside here: suddenly that 2+ save on Terminators is incredible: sticking that terminator IC out front so he can laugh in the face of small arms fire for the good of the unit is very helpful, and that 2+ Look Out, Sir! means should his 2+ and FNP both fail, he doesn't need to take the hit for it.

 

Just to be clear, if mixed saves are in the unit, you must LOS before you make the save. You can only make your save and then LOS if the unit has the same save for all models, which is not the case here.

Is this true? This is NOT how people around here have been playing it. I need to re-re-re-read that section.

[Ricter]

An obvious aside here: suddenly that 2+ save on Terminators is incredible: sticking that terminator IC out front so he can laugh in the face of small arms fire for the good of the unit is very helpful, and that 2+ Look Out, Sir! means should his 2+ and FNP both fail, he doesn't need to take the hit for it.

 

Just to be clear, if mixed saves are in the unit, you must LOS before you make the save. You can only make your save and then LOS if the unit has the same save for all models, which is not the case here.

Is this true? This is NOT how people around here have been playing it. I need to re-re-re-read that section.

 

Look at "mixed saves" on p15. It states to allocate wounds before you take saves, and LOS must be made when wounds are allocated.

 

Basically, if saves are the same:

1) Make saves

2) Allocate wounds

3) LOS

 

If saves are mixed:

1) Allocate wounds

2) LOS

3) Make saves

 

It makes a huge difference, as I'm sure you've seen.

[greatcrusade08]

Richter is correct, it prevents any abuse from having say calgar leading guardsmen at the front and using the look out sir mechanic to give guardsmen a 2+ armour save...

[thade]

Run two, this past week I took a 5th Ed experimental 1850 list against one with a flyer in it (I had no specific AA of any kind). My list was both experimental and cheeky for 5th, putting me in an interesting spot in a 6th Ed game. We played a DoW ("pitched battle") of, I believe, "The Scouring". (It was the game type where each objective has an unknown value until post-deployment.) The objectives were in an "X" formation (at each of points and the middle).

 

This game took place last Thursday evening against one awfulawful (who - like me - does not capitalize his board name) and between then and now I spent no fewer than five hours sitting on a rocky shore, watching waves crash. My memory of this game will be imperfect.

 

My list was something like:

• Asryndall, Terminator Librarian with Storm Shield. I took Biomancy which gave me Hemorrage (which failed to kill anybody) and some other power that gives a target unit Relentless and two other things..it was equally useless (as you may infer from the rest of my list).
  
• "Team Plasma" Vanguard on foot (in a LRC) with six marines, five plasma pistols, one power sword, one power fist.
  
• Three Apothecaries (counts-as Sanguine Priests): one in terminator armor w/ PS, one counts-as Corbulo, one regular.
  
• A tac squad with a power fist, 8 strong.
  
• Sternguard, six strong, with two combi-meltas and a power fist.
  
• An assault squad with a power fist and a melta gun, eight strong.
  
• A captain with two Thunder Hammers.
  
• A five-marine jump team, melta gun, power fist.
  
• Land Raider Crusader with MM and EA.
  
• Three Rhinos also as Dedicated Transports.
  

Immediately upon deploying I thought "I should've reviewed this list before selecting it."

 

The Vanguard was in the LRC with the TDA Libby and the TDA Apothecary: the other foot-slogging units were in Rhinos; the jump team was DSing.

 

His list was something like:

• Crowe, on foot and utterly alone.
  
• Three dreadnoughts which were built out of the Venerable Contemptors and looked beautiful. Two with TL-Autocannons and one with Assault Cannon...all with Pybolt Ammo.
  
• Two Purifier Squads with Psybolt Ammo, each with 2 or 3 psycannons and a single Incinerator, I think. Smattering of halberds and at least one hammer each. They were mounted in Rhinos.
  
• Five Paladins in a Storm Raven. The Paladins had a Banner, a Hammer, I think a Psycannon, and two (or three?) halberds. The Raven had a TL-MM and Hurricane Bolters.
  

Worth mentioning, certainly, that this list was painted up and converted to be Adeptus Custodes; obviously this battle didn't actually take place between my feverish loyalists and the guardians of the Emperor...some foolish heretical propaganda. Nothing more.

 

Anyway, highlights follow as I'm embarrassed to say I don't really remember it (other than it being a good time). Maybe awful will drop in here and chime in.

 

The deployment was (from my left to right) one Purifier Rhino, three Dreads (the Riflemen flanking the Assault cannon) with Crowe behind in the middle, and on the right the other Purifier Rhino. The flyer started in reserve, per the rules. Again, left to right, my assault team in a Rhino with counts-as Corbulo (I call him "Vito"...get it?); LRC with Team Plasma, TDA Lib with useless powers, TDA Apothecary; Six-marine sternguard in a Rhino, Tac Squad in Rhino with Captain Hammers (Captain "Bag-of-Door-Knobs" if you prefer). The Jump team started in reserves and was DSing.

 

TURN ONE. Awful got first turn and his dreads popped all three of my Rhinos before they thought to move. I fully expected this when I failed to steal the Initiative; S8 TL only got better with this edition. It's cool, so did foot infantry. He disembarked his Purifiers as well which lit my marines up. Pinning checks passed, maybe lost two marines to the explosions and follow-up fire. The LR in turn grounded his left Rhino. I shift my weight left, the Tacticals barely clambering out of their new crater, the Sternguard stepping forward...neither of these two units can trace LOS to Crowe (that hill in the middle occludes him) so they take pot shots at the right Purifier team. My assault team advances.

 

I'm already a bit worried because Purifiers are well-equipped and Fearless, so my usual M.O. (which this list was designed around) of "Shoot then Charge" could easily be suicide...especially considering his incoming Paladins.

 

TURN TWO. His SR flies in at full speed, toward my Land Raider. His Purifiers (to my right, with the still-functional Rhino) cut my Tac squad down to half. Heavy fire from the Dreads cuts my Sternguard down to half. My assault marines take no losses. His Dread charges my sternguard and kills one of them, leaving the PF serg and one brave veteran. My Jump Team comes in from Reserves; I place them within firing range of the left Purifiers, advance my assault marines toward them, and advance the LRC, disembarking and leaving a clear lane for the Crusader to fire. These three units and the blessed LR fire on the Purifiers, killing half of them. Team Plasma rolls poor charge range and doesn't get there...which, with the incoming paladins, means bad things for Team Plasma. My tac marines and Captain Migraine continue to slog left to attempt to rescue the Sternguard.

 

TURN THREE. Paladins disembark, charge, and eat my Vanguard, leaving the Librarian all alone; he called a challenge and made his single 3++ required to survive the Automatically Activated Hammerhanded S10 Nemesis Daemon Hammer (two kinds of Instant Death, so painful). He fails his morale check and flees, four inches away from the Paladins after they consolidate. In the meantime, his Purifiers kill all but one of my Jump marines, sending the lone melta-wielding surviver fleeing a big-bad 14".

 

My marines are upset.

 

The Librarian joins with the assault team and fires upon the Terminators, inflicting one wound. The crusader pivots and lights the Paladins up, inflicting two wounds (from the other side, though, and a LOS! is made, so no lost Paladin). The lone jump marine hops behind them so he can hope to catch a late-game objective. I charge the Paladins, issuing a challenge with the Librarian. My tac squad and Captain Vehemus (that's actually his name) race in to rescue the Sternguard remnant. I lose the Sternguard vet, leaving the sergeant all alone; in return, I have two fist attacks at S8 (Sternguard Serg), three fist attacks at S9 (Tac Serg charging in with Apothecary), and the good Captain with five S9 attacks. Exit Dreadnought. Oh, and I manage to take down two Paladins but lose combat. My marines flee, but not very far.

 

TURN FOUR. His Paladins shoot and charge my assault team; this time my marines win combat and he flees from me, but not very far. I have maybe five left, including the Librarian who keeps challenging to tie up the Hammer and counts-as Corbulo, who's rending S5/6 chainsword is a nice bonus. It also helps that (as awfulawful lamented) I made an epic number of FNP saves against his NFW; meanwhile my Librarian with his S6 AP*4* staff manages to roll an eleven on the only chance he gets at a Force Weapon kill. His SR rolls back 5" or so and hammers on my LR, which finally blows up after a series of glances (it's been firing at the raider this entire time). 2xTH Captain and the surviving Tac Serg and marine charge the SR and make it, taking the bird out of the air with Hammer Time.

 

TURN FIVE. The Captain's unit is decimated by Purifier fire, the Captain himself taking two wounds. Now he (and the surviving Tac Sergent) can either engage what little is left of the left Purifier squad (sitting on a 3-pointer, across from a 4-pointer) or try to take on a full unit of Purifiers at the right. The surviving Sternguard Sergeant fails one of four autocannon wounds, the surviving Jump Marine is just out of range of the assault cannon (which moves in to help the assault marines, then spins around to shoot at the Captain). Jump Marine comes forward to lock in the point my assault marines are fighting for and melta-one-shots the Assault Cannon dread. The Captain engages the remaining three Purfiers in the left team and takes them out. My assault team finishes off the Paladins at incredible cost: only the Sergeant, one marine, and the Corbulo remain alive.

 

TURN SIX. At this point I have very little left. Lone Jump Marine takes eight autocannon shots to his face and fails only one. The Captain and the last Tac marine go down to Psybolt fire from the still full-unit of Purifiers. I basically have one shot to Draw the game...making an 11" charge and pulling the Purifiers off of the two objectives they're spanning and locking them down with Corbulo invincibility. I roll a 9 and forfeit a game well played.

 

AFTERMATH. I haven't really played in months and it shows. I put no thought into my deployment, placing two melee teams at my left hand. While the LRC does shoot more-or-less like a Tac Squad (even with the changes to vehicle firing on the move) it put me in the position of needing to spearhead in with my Vanguard, which I know is foolish. It turns them into the Priority Target, and I really could've used their plasma pistol fire on those Paladins or the other Rhino. The Sternguard was utterly under-utilized: then needed an Apothecary and - since the Apothecary bubble no longer extends out of the transport (or at least, that's how I insisted I play it, as I was unsure) they were just very expensive, under-manned marines. DSing the Jump Marines would've worked better had Team Plasma made the charge I was certain they'd make. They worked out pretty well, all things considered.

 

Also, I took down Paladins in assault. And they had a banner. Granted, I had FNP and more than twice their numbers, but they're Freakin' Paladins. (Did I mention that I made a LOT of 5+ FNP rolls?)

 

The list composition was also silly; Sternguard and Vanguard are two units of specialists and at 1850 or less I prefer taking more scoring units. I'd have traded them in for a Tac squad. The foot-slogging assault squad did better than I thought they would. Overall I enjoyed the list and the game, but I feel it was poorly representative of what Team Plasma can accomplish. They'll definitely be seeing the field again.

 

ADDENDUM: Oh, thought this but forgot to add...I take Biomancy on the Librarian because "Iron Arm" makes a lot of fun sense for my army...but it's dumb that it's a one-in-six chance of getting it. I'm strongly considering going back to my old standbys...Sanguine Sword and Unleashed Rage.

[awfulawful]

Pretty spot on, especially for someone who shut his brain down for the long weekend. ;)

 

A couple of points to add/emphasize:

Out of respect for your lack of anti-aircraft weapons, I left the Storm Raven in hover mode after a single zoom move, in order to give you a chance at shooting it down. The fact that you downed it with thunder hammers (my favorite weapon in the game) was a highlight for me.

 

Considering the topic of the thread, let's also not forget the performance of your Vanguard, or Team Plasma as they have become known in my nightmares. Between your own pre-charge shooting, and overwatch fire, those plasma pistols were absolutely devastating to my paladins. Your dice rolls were obviously somewhat divergent from statistically expected values (AND I HATE YOU FOR THAT), but wow those guys did their job well. Sure, they all died, but the cost to me was enormous.

 

Look Out Sir is a silly rule for Paladins to be able to abuse, and I am sorry for using it. I had forgotten that I did use it the one time, but after that I did not use it again.

 

And finally, this game was absolutely between your Red Shields and the Emperor's (beloved by all) own Custodes. Your guys have spent so much time playing Quality Champion's chaos dudes that an Inquisitor or two suspected some possible corruption. They just asked my golden guys to stop by and check you out on the way back from another errand. Based on examinations of your chapter's faith, martial prowess, and clear blessing of the Emperor (beloved by all) in the form of making 106% of your armor saves, you passed with flying colors.

[thade]

Considering the topic of the thread, let's also not forget the performance of your Vanguard, or Team Plasma as they have become known in my nightmares. Between your own pre-charge shooting, and overwatch fire, those plasma pistols were absolutely devastating to my paladins.

I forgot all about overwatch! I think I killed a Paladin with plasma pistols when he charged me...I totally forgot that. It wasn't something I'd even considered (plasma pistols for Vanguard overwatch) because when you (or at least when I) put a Vanguard in a list, I'm thinking about them as if they are charging or already in combat. Previously "Getting charged" just amounted to the latter, but Overwatch changes things.

 

Your dice rolls were obviously somewhat divergent from statistically expected values (AND I HATE YOU FOR THAT), but wow those guys did their job well. Sure, they all died, but the cost to me was enormous.

Awful has come to recognize what I'm really good at. It's not list-building (obviously), not Water Warrior tactics, and not painting: it's rolling saves. Some twist of fate means I roll 5+ FNP as if I'm rolling 3+. I think I made almost every FNP I was called upon to take for much of the game (failing only one each round of combat with the Paladins, for sure)...that is, after my Vanguard got pasted.

 

Look Out Sir is a silly rule for Paladins to be able to abuse, and I am sorry for using it. I had forgotten that I did use it the one time, but after that I did not use it again.

I remember hearing a rumor that they were going to redact this for Paladins (and Nobz) but I haven't seen or heard anything about it since. Until then, it's fine. They are super expensive and awesome; they should be more bad ass, not less.

 

And finally, this game was absolutely between your Red Shields and the Emperor's (beloved by all) own Custodes. Your guys have spent so much time playing Quality Champion's chaos dudes that an Inquisitor or two suspected some possible corruption. They just asked my golden guys to stop by and check you out on the way back from another errand. Based on examinations of your chapter's faith, martial prowess, and clear blessing of the Emperor (beloved by all) in the form of making 106% of your armor saves, you passed with flying colors.

Thank the Emperor. It's hard when your chapter hovers in at an awkwardly stable population of 200 marines.

 

And thanks again for the game; that was a spectacular time.