Wolf Guard & Power Fists - Not so hot...

[Cowmonaut]

One of the most popular load outs for a while has been a Combi-Melta and Power Fist. No more I say! 6th Edition has brought us some changes, and this seems to be one of them.

 

Think about it. Why did you take Power Fists? So you could deal with the occasional Walker or Monstrous Creature and splat any Toughness 4 multi-wound models. These reasons are excellent- for 5th edition. Its a new game and look at what has changed:

 

1) You can hit Walkers in combat with a Grenade based on Weapon Skill instead of needing a 6.

2) Most Monstrous Creatures are also Characters and can issue a Challenge, meaning they'll be striking just your Wolf Guard before he gets a chance to.

3) Likewise, most of the multi-wound models in the game are Characters and can issue a Challenge.

 

Frankly, Power Fists on Characters are kind of bad now. Same with anything else Unwieldy, unless you have a Storm Shield giving you a reliable Invulnerable Save. For less points you can grab a Power Weapon (Sword) and Meltabombs. Most MCs are likely to still splat you before you get a chance of reprisal. Meltabombs are more likely to destroy a Walker than a Power Fist.

 

Frankly, Wolf Guard as Pack Leaders seems risky if they aren't in TDA.

 

There is a flip side to this though. We can still take hidden Power Fists in the form of Grey Hunters. Before it was never worth the points, but now it just may be a bit more useful (though I think Power Axes are the way to go here). With careful positioning you can keep them out of base contact with the enemy, increasing their odds of survival.

 

I think Challenges are really going to shake up close combat, especially for Space Wolves. I forsee more foot based lists with Lone Wolves and TDA wearing Wolf Guard. What do you guys think? How is this going to affect your load out for your Wolf Guard?

[hendrik]

a PW/frostblade will still be lacking against 2+ armoured opponents, take for example a chainfist equiped wolf lord with belt of russ and runic armour VS a chaos lord in TDA with a powersword. the chaoslord will strike first but your lord will still have his 2+ armour save. when our wolflord strikes the chaoslord will have to rely on his 5+inv save to let him live.

one of the best loadouts imo will be a wolfclaw+chainfist. you'll get the extra attack and get to choose what AP you want to use

[Cowmonaut]

Independent Characters is one thing. Your Wolf Lord can also take Eternal Warrior and has multiple Wounds.

 

Wolf Guard Pack Leaders however, are single Wound and only get an Invulnerable if you throw them in TDA or give them a Storm Shield. They can't get Runic Armor either so unless they are in TDA they are vulnerable to AP:3 Power Swords.

 

This is my point. If you are that vulnerable in a Challenge, a Power Fist doesn't make sense. The commonly accepted build, at least on the interwebs, has been a Combi-Melta and Power Fist. I'm saying that is going to need to change.

 

I forsee less Wolf Guard being taken and more emphasis put on HQs or generic Grey Hunters. Wolf Guard are being forced out of effectiveness when it comes to Rhino/Razorback based Grey Hunters, at least if you throw on a Power Fist.

[hendrik]

it depends IMO, wolfguard with TDA will be suitable character slayers . personnally i see razorbacks moving from a transport function towards a gunplatform that acts as a wall for your units. most importantly you'll want a wolf guard in your units to accept those challenges you want to keep your HQ out of. you know which ones i mean, like those in which ragnar gets challenged by a TDA chaos lord, or another 2+ foe ;)

[Lord Ragnarok]

I sadly removed all my almost painted WG in PA models from my drop pod list and replaced them with TDA with Wolf Claw models. It's really a no brainer and will work well in DP GH packs. We are very fortunate that we can field GH's with good effect at max models without WG or field our WG in TDA with sloggers or DP GH packs.

[jester262]

the way I've been thinking is you take a WG with a plasma pistol and power weapon, especially in a unit with an IC. If you get challenged then you can throw the wolf guard at your opponent instead of your IC plus he'll be striking on initiative.

[Lord Ragnarok]

the way I've been thinking is you take a WG with a plasma pistol and power weapon, especially in a unit with an IC. If you get challenged then you can throw the wolf guard at your opponent instead of your IC plus he'll be striking on initiative.

 

If in PA he will probably die most of the time as most IC's will have a higher initiative. And with our IC's, if in PA they should probably be wearing runic armor. So if the challenger is a fister generally the WG with Initiiative weapon would be a better challenger. If the Challenger has a ap3 power weapon of some sorts your runic armor IC maybe be a better choice for the challenge.

[akahdrin]

Really digging my 33 point wolf guard with a str 6 ap2 power axe packing with his 2/5 save =D

[Lord Ragnarok]

Really digging my 33 point wolf guard with a str 6 ap2 power axe packing with his 2/5 save =D

You mean frost Axe right?

[Russ Brother 92]

Really digging my 33 point wolf guard with a str 6 ap2 power axe packing with his 2/5 save =D

You mean frost Axe right?

 

Also means it has to be 40+ pts due to it needing the Frost Axe, but as Rags states - S6 AP2 is only done via a Frost Axe, Power Axe is S5 AP2.

 

I ran a very small TDAWG setup the other day, Arjac + 4 others, 1 AssCan + Fist, 1 TH/SS and 2 WC/WC, they did quite well but out of my whole army the key one was actually my Lone Wolf, TDA & Twin Claws, he was a beast especially in the 2-3 challenges he was in - brilliant and I shall deffo be using him again ^_^

[Chalx the grey]

I just had a game against tyranids (2000 pts) with a foot list with TDA WG leading almost all squads. The powerfists were brutal to his T4 mutiwound creatures, inc. 4 broodlords, 6 zoans, the parasite, and the doom of Malantai (damn frustrating this one, he was already at 8 wounds when my lord on TW took it down with his hammer!

 

Bottomline, 2+ save and powerfist is awesome for WG in assault, especially with banners. Put them in base to base and watch him soak hit after hit. Not many challengers will want to take a chance against this guy, except MCs and some selected few who strike at initiative with AP2 weapons. And in that event you can still decline the challenge and put those grenades to work.

 

For PA WG though I agree the PF doesn't cut it anymore, but giving him a storm shield makes it already too expensive and a 3++ isn't soooo good in a single wound model.

[LoneSniperSG]

Probably won't affect my WG too much, as I rarely have the points to squeeze in PA WG. Ditto for TDA WG. I also do not have many Power Fists in my army, but I will have to be re-thinking my Thunderhammers now I suppose... I have quite a few of those floating around, including one on my Wolf Lord. I was going to build a third model of him with Wolf Claws and TDA so all is good. I also need reason and motivation to try and get more twin Wolf Claws into my army.

 

Will this change affect Dreadnoughts at all?

[Wulfebane]

Will this change affect Dreadnoughts at all?

 

IIRC, walkers are not affected by the initiative drop from power fists... Unless you're referring to something else.

[Chucku]

I agree that Wolf Guard battle leaders with a PF is not the best option. A Grey Hunter in the squad with a Power Axe and a Meltabomb for the Wolf Guard is probably the better buy.

 

However I don't think the Power Fist is dead. With the rise of 2+ armor saves due to AP3 on many power weapons I think it still has a place because of its' AP2 and likelihood to wound/insta-kill. With the exception of Monstrous Creatures and Walkers it seems just about all AP2 close combat weapons are now I1. So you'll want to protect them however you can, such as storm shields.

[Russ Brother 92]

I think that having a Power Sword/Wolf Claw on your WG is now a better option - allows you to strike at I value, then have a PF on your regular GH meaning he can't be taken out except via precision hits/shots - then you have a decent AP2 weapon that can't be challenged hidden in your unit AND a decent AP3 I4 weapon to take the challenges :)

[Vantius]

Frankly, I am excited about the fact that there will likely be a wire variety of Wolf Guard builds in the time to come. I like this because I think it will help put a little more flavor back into many flavorless Space Wolf Lists. I am the first to admit that I had a part in such list making. I currently have 5 wolf guard, all modeled with combi meltas and power fists. Luckily, I had the sense to magnetize, so changes will be easy. But I am also very excited for my future wolf guard models, and I am seriously considering making large packs of them with different load-outs so that I can have any setup I'd like. Of course, magnetizing helps with this too.

[frostclaw222]

IMHO, Grey Hunters just got better in 6E, for the same reason they did in previous editions: the hidden power fist.

 

I agree, Wolf Guard need to ditch the hammers and fists, unless they're toting a storm shield. And the shield means giving up the combi-weapon. I'm not sure yet what the final verdict in the SW meta will be, but at this point, I'm leaning towards FW or WC with storm shield on pack leaders, with a fist hidden in the squad. For TDA WG? If we're still talking pack leaders, then it gets a lot more complicated, I think, since the durability of 2+ has gone up, and challenges seriously changes character loadouts. If we're talking squads of TDA WG, though, I think we'll still see a diverse mix, with multiple Look out, Sirs! and serious deliberation on who accepts a given challenge to preserve whatever WG we think is going to be needed down the road. What's more, the way allocation goes down, the rest of the squad can theoretically redirect heavy hits to the stormshield guys, but the fact that WG are single wound models still makes this a risky enterprise.

[Grimtooth]

I never played pack leaders, instead going with 10 man GH packs, dual special weapons. For my melta GH packs, I always went with the powerfist, accepting that I was going to be practically useless after the charge/counter-attack with limited attacks.

 

With the coming of ap2 designations on close combat weapons and the ramifications associated with it, my powerfists will be dropping in favor of power axes. I think the viability of the power axe far outweighs the use of a power fist now, especially with the shift of how I will be using my GH packs now.

[eyeslikethunder]

i am currently very tempted by the meltabombs on my wolfguard as 1 squad member can fire a grenade a turn it might as well be him who buys himslef one

it adds a extra low ap weapon for those terminators that must die but i have already used my combimelta

can be used on monstrous creatures , dreads and tanks in both shooting and cc

 

+because they have armour bane rather than the melta rule you get the 8+2d6 at 8" rather than the 6 " you do with a melta gun

[Chucku]

IMHO, Grey Hunters just got better in 6E, for the same reason they did in previous editions: the hidden power fist.

 

I agree, Wolf Guard need to ditch the hammers and fists, unless they're toting a storm shield. And the shield means giving up the combi-weapon. I'm not sure yet what the final verdict in the SW meta will be, but at this point, I'm leaning towards FW or WC with storm shield on pack leaders, with a fist hidden in the squad. For TDA WG? If we're still talking pack leaders, then it gets a lot more complicated, I think, since the durability of 2+ has gone up, and challenges seriously changes character loadouts. If we're talking squads of TDA WG, though, I think we'll still see a diverse mix, with multiple Look out, Sirs! and serious deliberation on who accepts a given challenge to preserve whatever WG we think is going to be needed down the road. What's more, the way allocation goes down, the rest of the squad can theoretically redirect heavy hits to the stormshield guys, but the fact that WG are single wound models still makes this a risky enterprise.

 

I'm going hidden Power Axe over PF myself. Cheaper, provides more attacks with AP2 and +1S.

[Fire Wolf]

I'm tempted to roll a TDA Wolfguard with a Frostblade and meltabombs and have a Grey Hunter carry around a hidden axe. The more I look at rules for close combat against vehicles and now that you can willingly break combat, having that hidden fist to smash things that we once difficult to wound has just fallen off dramatically.

 

Having an army where challenges are the name of the game also just sounds appealing and properly wolf-like.

[MalachiOfRuss]

i am currently very tempted by the meltabombs on my wolfguard as 1 squad member can fire a grenade a turn it might as well be him who buys himslef one

You can't throw Meltabombs.

[Olgerth Istaarn]

6th Edition is the death of the "versatile Grey Hunter Pack" (8 GH, Meltagun, 1 GH with MotW, Wolf Standard, WGPL with Combi Melta and PF, Rhino). Likewise it is the death of WGPL in general, save for a few situations.

 

WGPL with a powerfist is not "suboptimal" but downright worthless; you could be successfully challenged by an IG character with a power weapon that costs half the points. He will giddily carve up your "mighty" WGPL and his 3+, one wound before the poor bastard can take a swing. Likewise, any multiwound character assaulting your GH pack now has nothing to fear as long as they have initiative over 1. A WGPL with a powerfist is now an utterly useless upgrade that will die in the first round of serious combat (which is why you bought him in the first place) and will NEVER make its points back.

 

It gets worse. A WGPL with a Powersword is... wait for it... a one-wound model with a power weapon that can be challenged and killed by anything multi-wound with higher I. Sure, you don't have to fear the big bad IG commissar with a powersword anymore, but how much difference will this upgrade really make in serious combat (that is, where you need high S to either instakill or to even have a chance of scratching the target)? None whatsoever.

 

The only scenario where a WGPL with a Powerfist is viable as more than a sacrificial throw-away is a GH pack that also includes a Rune or a Wolf Priest. The higher-I multiwound character can take challenges, the WGPL waits in the wings until something heavy-duty needs to be smashed. This will work even better if the said multiwound character has Runic Armor upgrade, but now we're getting into serious points-per-squad (200+ for the GH pack with WGPL, 100+ for the character).

 

If you are running a "naked" GH pack (that is, no character joins it), you're better off taking ten men and two special weapons. You can hang a powerfist on a GH, but it's an overpriced gamble (whiffing twice on the charge and once per subsequent round is real easy).

 

In general, the 6th has torn out the good chunk of awesome from the Grey Hunters, and brought them closer to the institutionalized mediocrity of vanilla SMs. Not quite of course, but close enough. As people fond of gravedancing are wont to say, one of the best loyalist units ever has gotten "lovingly slapped around with the nerf bat".

 

I'm sure quite a few people are happy.

[Grimtooth]

6th Edition is the death of the "versatile Grey Hunter Pack" (8 GH, Meltagun, 1 GH with MotW, Wolf Standard, WGPL with Combi Melta and PF, Rhino). Likewise it is the death of WGPL in general, save for a few situations.

 

WGPL with a powerfist is not "suboptimal" but downright worthless; you could be successfully challenged by an IG character with a power weapon that costs half the points. He will giddily carve up your "mighty" WGPL and his 3+, one wound before the poor bastard can take a swing. Likewise, any multiwound character assaulting your GH pack now has nothing to fear as long as they have initiative over 1. A WGPL with a powerfist is now an utterly useless upgrade that will die in the first round of serious combat (which is why you bought him in the first place) and will NEVER make its points back.

 

It gets worse. A WGPL with a Powersword is... wait for it... a one-wound model with a power weapon that can be challenged and killed by anything multi-wound with higher I. Sure, you don't have to fear the big bad IG commissar with a powersword anymore, but how much difference will this upgrade really make in serious combat (that is, where you need high S to either instakill or to even have a chance of scratching the target)? None whatsoever.

 

The only scenario where a WGPL with a Powerfist is viable as more than a sacrificial throw-away is a GH pack that also includes a Rune or a Wolf Priest. The higher-I multiwound character can take challenges, the WGPL waits in the wings until something heavy-duty needs to be smashed. This will work even better if the said multiwound character has Runic Armor upgrade, but now we're getting into serious points-per-squad (200+ for the GH pack with WGPL, 100+ for the character).

 

If you are running a "naked" GH pack (that is, no character joins it), you're better off taking ten men and two special weapons. You can hang a powerfist on a GH, but it's an overpriced gamble (whiffing twice on the charge and once per subsequent round is real easy).

 

In general, the 6th has torn out the good chunk of awesome from the Grey Hunters, and brought them closer to the institutionalized mediocrity of vanilla SMs. Not quite of course, but close enough. As people fond of gravedancing are wont to say, one of the best loyalist units ever has gotten "lovingly slapped around with the nerf bat".

 

I'm sure quite a few people are happy.

 

Ol, you pretty much hate anything to do with 6th edition, noted in your many complaint posts about it as well as your own sig.

 

While your opinion of what was the "versatile" GH pack was always a point of contention in the many conversations about it, it is far, far from dead. While the WGPL concept needs to be re-tooled due to challenges and new power weapon rules, it puts the onus on the player on how he plans on using his GH packs now which coincidentally 6th has made them even more versatile then 5th.

[Mantinel]

I think foot armies will live again. With Wolf Guard Pack Leader in Terminator Armour :-)