Wolf Guard & Power Fists - Not so hot...

[Rune_Priest_Rhapsody]

I'm testing TDA WGPL with WC and C-M/P in my foot list. During the only game I have played with them they worked decently. I think the positioning within the pack is going to also be something I am going to need to work on.

 

I also agree that the axe is a better option than the fist now for hiding within the pack.

 

End of Line

[MalachiOfRuss]

I don't agree that a PF on a WGPL is completely useless. I agree that it isn't he "auto-take" that it used to be. What 6th has given us is tactical choices and that is a good thing, imo. Let's think about this for a few minutes.

 

True, the PF goes at Init 1, but now most weapons that are AP2 also go at Init 1. Yes, you may encounter other squads that have their squad Character with an AP3 power weapon and that will be a threat to you, but I don't think an IG Sgt that hits on 4's and Wounds on 5's with 2 Attacks is an auto-lose situation, even if you are going at Init 1 (a 33% chance that you'll die, says the Assault Calculator - the same odds as failing any armor save with a Marine). Additionally, if someone has their squad Character with a normal CCW I'll still take the challenge. There's also the option of simply refusing. If you know that the rest of your squad will "probably" hold up in the fight without your WGPL, then position him in the back and refuse the challenge (if he's far enough away that he's not even "participating" then he can't accept the Challenge). If the opponent positions his Character near the front, there's a chance that he may die in the combat. Then if the combat is still going next round, your WGPL steps up and does his thing with the PF.

 

Given that 2+ armor got a big boost, and most IC models have access to a 2+ save, I think IC's with a 2+ will be almost universal. Sure, that I5 IC with a Power Weapon is highly likely to carve up your WGPL with a PF. But, will we see a lot of IC's with AP3 Power Swords? Is that what you're going to put on your Wolf Lord? What if your IC with an AP3 weapon gets Challenged by another IC with 2+ armor? Your Wolf Lord will *tink tink* off of his armor and possibly/probably get smushed in return. So you're putting a Power Axe or some other AP2 weapon on your 2+ save IC right? Of course! But now, you're going at Init 1 just like the PF guy. Are you going to Challenge knowing that if you fail your Invul save (assuming no EW) that PF WGPL is going to splat you? But the enemy IC has a 2+, 3++, EW, and a bazillion attacks! Ok, fine... did your WGPL with a PF have much a chance against such a best in 5th? The WGPL with PF still has its place.

 

Other tactical choices include giving your WGPL a Power Sword or Frost Blade to give more attacks at I4 with AP3. This is the "counter" to the guy with the powerful AP2 weapons. Yes the AP3 weapon will *tink tink* off of 2+ armor and then you'll be creamed in return. However, the WGPL with Frost Blade (same cost as PF!) is the "rock" to the "scissors" of the enemy with 3+ (or worse) armor and an AP2 weapon. A model with 2+ armor is the "counter" to the model with AP3.

 

Even the much maligned Power Maul has its place. It is actually the best choice to go up against an enemy with 2+ armor going at Init 1!

 

The more I thought about this change to give Power Weapons different AP value, the more I started to see that GW has done a good job of giving us tactical choices and not easy ones either. There are no "well this is clearly the best" when it comes to choices of Power Weapons - they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

[Olgerth Istaarn]

I suppose that rose-tinted glasses that are sufficiently thick can turn "nerf" into "tactical choice". That is valid enough, but in general, for those who prefer to call a spade a spade, when you can no longer do something that you could do before because your power was arbitrarily cut, it's not a "tactical choice". It's the very definition of a nerf.

 

The essence of any Space Marine army was versatility, we always have fewer bodies on the table, but we are, or I should say were, able to adequately meet most challenges. Grey Hunters distilled that maxim into its pure form, and I don't see anything wrong or needing changes with that. An SM army simply cannot afford to include highly specialized troops units. They cost too much and number too few. By eliminating the ability to equally adequately shoot, fight and take on high-T or AV models, Grey Hunters have been nudged towards specialization and away from versatility.

 

Sure, you can rationalize chances of being killed with mathhammer, or meta your way around challenges until cows come home. I'm sure the tournament scene will come up with a way to game and gimmick the challenge mechanic before long, and then all the cool kids will be doing it. However, you SHOULDN'T HAVE TO. By the way, Malachi's recipe of skipping the first turn by hiding in the back and being impossible to challenge is not going to work - you'll just be challenged in the next round when the wall of bodies is whittled down.

 

Also, this is invalid:

 

But the enemy IC has a 2+, 3++, EW, and a bazillion attacks! Ok, fine... did your WGPL with a PF have much a chance against such a best in 5th?

 

Why, my WGPL had a much better chance in the 5th. For a valuable IC, charging into a unit with a hidden powerfist meant a gamble - either he kills them all or one of them just might splat him. Now, an IC charging into the unit means:

 

- Round one, I kill the sucker with the PF (the only one that could splat me), while his buddies watch

- Round two, I finish his buddies

 

OR

 

- Round one, the sucker with the PF hides from me while I kill his buddies with impunity.

- Round two, I kill the sucker with the PF because he's the last one left.

 

And yes, I absolutely despise the 6th Edition, and am not ashamed of it. To me, there are no redeeming factors to it whatsoever; it is the worst collection of missteps and moneymaker changes to ever have the 40K logo slapped on it. And I have the same right to complain and voice my opinion as those who equally vocally celebrate the 6th as the best thing since sliced bread.

[Quillen]

I too think that 6th edition is a big old pile of poo. And I have to agree with this...

 

Why, my WGPL had a much better chance in the 5th. For a valuable IC, charging into a unit with a hidden powerfist meant a gamble - either he kills them all or one of them just might splat him. Now, an IC charging into the unit means:

 

- Round one, I kill the sucker with the PF (the only one that could splat me), while his buddies watch

- Round two, I finish his buddies

 

OR

 

- Round one, the sucker with the PF hides from me while I kill his buddies with impunity.

- Round two, I kill the sucker with the PF because he's the last one left.

 

Which is the problem. You had different types of weapons in Roguetrader and 2nd edition. But they wee not screwed with Int. Atleast I could remmeber my fists going when swords and axes went. It was 20 years ago or so thou. But now we have an ever worse case of heroe hammer then 2nd edtion was. I use to watch Ragnar bouce sround the board kiling everything back then. It was summed up with phrases like. "Look my Demon just killed everything in your army." "My HQ just splatted half your army." "Look my Psyker just killed your uber heroe before it could splat half my army."

 

In those editions of the game I always carried a vortex grenade to kill off the bull:cuss before it could wreck my list and then my bull:cuss would wreck their list. And Tada we have that again. And now we have it where weapons have a speed to boot. So it's even more lame.

 

Which was the point of 3rd edition to begin with. To get rid of heroe hammer. But these un-original people are just recycling crap to make a buck. And ruining a game which was getting better and more pure. 4th Edition had it pretty good except with targeting through Terrain. Nothing like trees that reach the stars. But it was a better game. These rules are a tragedy to me. So I have to agree. What were they thinking?

 

I am not too worried. I still have my Rogue trader rule book and 2nd edtion booklets and 3rd edition and 2 4th edition and a 5th. So I can play any of them I really want. The question I have been asking my self is, is it worth buying a rule book I can not stand. Is it worth that much money. I have bills to pay. Things to do. So should I piss away 85 bucks on a rule set that is well sucky at best?

 

The weapon types could have been flavored without making them gimped to pieces. Which is the problem here.

 

The good news is in 3 to 4 years max there will be a new rule book and the odds are it will be a rereleased 3rd/4th edition. Cause this one will be like 2nd Edition where elite bullies wonder the board eating model after model. Which brings me to why not just take 2 heroes and see who wins the fight. I know serveral campaign games we had back then I would bug out the minute my heroe bought the farm to prevent a heroe from eating my whole army. Can't run a campaign based on real life reserves and replacements one one guy can kill it in 4 or 5 turns.

 

Power Fists use to go on Int. Then it would still get a bonus to attack for a pistol or second melee weapon. Now they are worthless. Which is the problem. What was GW thinking. Or were they even thinking. And how long till people realise they are getting jerked around by these people and switch to better rule systems which are soming out. I played Dirtside for a time. And a buddy at the local hobby store showed me a new rule set with Moral and true pinning and breaking. Which looks awesome. And the new book which is full of awesomeness only costs 50 bucks. And it's got no codex creep. lol Which is a huge plus.

[Valerian]

I like the 6e changes (most of them, anyway). The ones that I don't care for are few enough not to give me too much concern over it.

 

Back in 5e (and 3e and 4e, for that matter), there were "no-brainer" choices. You didn't have to use Pack Leaders, but if you did, most folks agreed that a Combi-Melta plus Power Fist was the smart choice. This setup had every advantage, and no clear drawback, so there was no good reason not to assign a Leader like this to most packs.

 

6e doesn't have the same "no-brainer" choices for characters, whether they are Independent or Upgrade (except for Runic Armour; that's definitely an auto-add now). Every load-out comes with advantages and disadvantages. There is a "risk analysis" that is now required. The game has transitioned from: this > that, to one of rock > scissors > paper > rock. You are going to have to play for the right matchups now, and must understand that there isn't an optimal load. Each situation will determine whether you've come to the fight with the advantage or not.

 

Valerian

[Lord Ragnarok]

I like the 6e changes (most of them, anyway). The ones that I don't care for are few enough not to give me too much concern over it.

 

Back in 5e (and 3e and 4e, for that matter), there were "no-brainer" choices. You didn't have to use Pack Leaders, but if you did, most folks agreed that a Combi-Melta plus Power Fist was the smart choice. This setup had every advantage, and no clear drawback, so there was no good reason not to assign a Leader like this to most packs.

 

6e doesn't have the same "no-brainer" choices for characters, whether they are Independent or Upgrade (except for Runic Armour; that's definitely an auto-add now). Every load-out comes with advantages and disadvantages. There is a "risk analysis" that is now required. The game has transitioned from: this > that, to one of rock > scissors > paper > rock. You are going to have to play for the right matchups now, and must understand that there isn't an optimal load. Each situation will determine whether you've come to the fight with the advantage or not.

 

Valerian

 

Hmmm sounds like a plug for versatility. Which I like!

[Quillen]

No brother that is the point. You have no versitility. If you have a Fist on a WGP he is a deader before he gets a chance to do anything. If you pack bumps into a monsterous creature or Demon prince it is dead before it can hurt it. Basicly it's not Rock, Paper, Scissor because you can not acutally build for the problem. And if you do you have 2 or 3 packs running around and one backing off as the other runs up.

 

It's all good. In 3 to 4 years a new rule book will come along I can get into, maybe. So I guess I will wait and see.

[Wulfebane]

Take a fist for a pack you don't expect to have in a Challenge. Take anything else if you do (at base initiative, etc). Sounds versatile to me. I'm trying to understand how the formerly mandatory powerfist+combi-weapon "cookie cutter" WGPL was more versatile than what we have now. I fully agree with Valerian. Now you have to make a choice and abide by the consequences. If anything, this edition makes all combinations viable in certain circumstances, instead of your "catch-all" pfist+cm combo, even TDA leading GH packs.

[Blacksad]

would you like some cheese with that whine?

 

you know the problem with WGPL's armed with powerfists. work around it. Add a poweraxe Grey Hunter to your pack, and kill the 2+ Ic with that while your WGPL cowers and hides, use the pack leader to tear down vehicles and MC, or weakling IC's. use your imagination instead of crying fire and murder. grow a pair.

[fjgarces]

would you like some cheese with that whine?

 

you know the problem with WGPL's armed with powerfists. work around it. Add a poweraxe Grey Hunter to your pack, and kill the 2+ Ic with that while your WGPL cowers and hides, use the pack leader to tear down vehicles and MC, or weakling IC's. use your imagination instead of crying fire and murder. grow a pair.

 

But you have to think! you have to think your combat formation, where to place the axe and the power fist, taking care of not to die because enemy fire moving towards the unit that you want to assault, you have to attack over the right side of the enemy...

 

This is no autoplay booooooo! :lol:

 

But,

 

THIS IS VERY FUNNY!!! THIS IS STRATEGY!!! :devil:

[vtec407]

Pardon the noobness but is it better to give the WGPL the PF or give it to one of the grey hunters? Because as of right now I have two 10 man grey hunter packs each with one grey hunter sporting a PF.

[Wulfebane]

Pardon the noobness but is it better to give the WGPL the PF or give it to one of the grey hunters? Because as of right now I have two 10 man grey hunter packs each with one grey hunter sporting a PF.

 

I'm guessing you haven't bothered reading the last page and a half of this topic. Had you done so, you'd have your answer.

[MalachiOfRuss]

But the enemy IC has a 2+, 3++, EW, and a bazillion attacks! Ok, fine... did your WGPL with a PF have much a chance against such a best in 5th?

 

Why, my WGPL had a much better chance in the 5th. For a valuable IC, charging into a unit with a hidden powerfist meant a gamble - either he kills them all or one of them just might splat him. Now, an IC charging into the unit means:

 

- Round one, I kill the sucker with the PF (the only one that could splat me), while his buddies watch

- Round two, I finish his buddies

 

OR

 

- Round one, the sucker with the PF hides from me while I kill his buddies with impunity.

- Round two, I kill the sucker with the PF because he's the last one left.

You must have missed that "EW" in my post there meant Eternal Warrior. That rule is unchanged, so PF's pose no greater threat to IC's with EW in 5th than they do in 6th. The summary above also ignores much of my other points - such as killer IC's not carrying as many weapons that strike at Init because they want to be carrying the AP2 ones. Sure, but that AP3 Power Sword on your killer IC. You can murder PF Sgt's all day - hooray. What happens when I Challenge that IC with a Character with 2+ Armor and an AP2 weapon? It's a new edition, things have changed.

 

 

6e doesn't have the same "no-brainer" choices for characters, whether they are Independent or Upgrade (except for Runic Armour; that's definitely an auto-add now). Every load-out comes with advantages and disadvantages. There is a "risk analysis" that is now required. The game has transitioned from: this > that, to one of rock > scissors > paper > rock. You are going to have to play for the right matchups now, and must understand that there isn't an optimal load. Each situation will determine whether you've come to the fight with the advantage or not.

Spot on Valerian; this was my point.

[LoneSniperSG]

And yes, I absolutely despise the 6th Edition, and am not ashamed of it. To me, there are no redeeming factors to it whatsoever; it is the worst collection of missteps and moneymaker changes to ever have the 40K logo slapped on it. And I have the same right to complain and voice my opinion as those who equally vocally celebrate the 6th as the best thing since sliced bread.

I too think that 6th edition is a big old pile of poo. And I have to agree with this...

 

I am in agreement, even if one of my sorest points about 6th is perhaps the least important. I do not like the new power weapon rules. Suddenly all of my fluffy power axes are now stupid baby powerfists.

 

However, the entirety of the Grey Hunters (and subsequent WGPL) nerf is truth. There is no way around that.

 

It's a new edition, things have changed.

Yes. Things change. Three of us do not like the changes presented as they affect our army in a negative way. 3rd to 4th was a positive change (Although I like 3rd for its weather tables), 4th to 5th was FOR SURE a positive change. Now 5th to 6th is gimping many Marines.

[Wulfebane]

However, the entirety of the Grey Hunters (and subsequent WGPL) nerf is truth. There is no way around that.

 

It's a new edition, things have changed.

Yes. Things change. Three of us do not like the changes presented as they affect our army in a negative way. 3rd to 4th was a positive change (Although I like 3rd for its weather tables), 4th to 5th was FOR SURE a positive change. Now 5th to 6th is gimping many Marines.

 

There ARE ways around it. Problem is you three seem to be "stuck in your ways" unwilling to venture out and come up with new and unique strategies, playing favorites with the old tried-and-true methods, believing that anything else is sub-par. Don't forget, other armies (and players) are in the exact same boat. They're having to adjust their builds and tactics to accommodate the new power weapon rules (among other rules) and will come up with the same issues we're finding. We're still the best army.. and being the best means we don't suffer whiners.

[greendestiny]

I know the Black Templars have the special rule "Suffer not the Witch to live." We must have the rule "Suffer not the whiner to play." lol

[Xeenos]

Eh, im just looking at it as, a Squad Leader should be tooled to deal with Squad Leaders. He is not a 2 + would hero, he is a simple squad leader, so tool him up to destroy other squad leaders, and their minions. To me that says Power Sword, or perhaps Claws, or other at Ini ap 3 weapon. Id not bother with plasma on my WG in Power Armor unless i have a Wolf Priest, burning out on a 1 and losing the special weapon is no good. Putting a PP on a GH is no biggy, as you can spread out the special weapons.

 

Top of my head id think my squads will be something like..

 

1 WG with either BP/P.Sword, BP/F.Sword or Wolf Claws.

9 GH

1 Melta

1 Banner

1 MotW (gives some ap 2 chance)

And for the special melee.. well, the Axe is sounding appealing as 'hidden' ap 2, but it would be Axe or Sword.

 

Id not bother with plasma myself unless its (below) or a cheap 5/10 GH with 1/2 plasma for holding objectives.

Wolf Priest Mark of Hunter PP

WG 2xPP

10 GH

2 P.Guns

Whatever else.

 

Always had bad luck with plasma, and i dont need to add more 'luck' to a game that is all dice rules already.

 

That our Wolf Guard in Power Armor cant beat the likes of an HQ with ease anymore is a good change, as this works both ways. Besides, we have more HQ, and Lone Wolves. If we can not beat the pants off any other army with the number of challengers we can field, then we must be doing it wrong. Or they have Abaddon.

[Sev]

I have a crazy idea. If you really want a power fist and are footslogging or podding in (and why not since Rhinos kind of suck now) just putthe Wolf Guard in TDA. A TDA WG with a PF is the same cost as the old standard, trades the single Melta shot for greatly increased survivability (though you can get it or plasma for pods for 5 points more). You have a much better chance of survival vs other sarges with swords/mauls, and strike at the same time as things that can kill you and you can still scare of IC's without EW. The main reason why we didn't do this before is mainly since most of us used Rhinos for our GH packs. You do lose sweeping advance though, which I can live with.

[Valerian]

Wolf Priest Mark of Hunter PP

WG 2xPP

10 GH

2 P.Guns

Whatever else.

 

Xeenos, I'm glad to see that you are considering the "Valerian-pattern" Grey Hunter Pack :)

 

Now if only I can actually get a game in, so that I can use it myself.

 

V

[Wysten]

I am slightly annoyed since I have at least 5 wolf guard with power fists now, but I am sure I can put them to some other use, perhaps as a secondary hammer in a Grey Hunter squad already armed with an axe. Want to call him out? Thats cool, since my pack is still likely to preform epically in combat, if not terribably optimal pricing (power fist Wolfguard with bolter and Axe might make the unit rather expensive.) and if worst comes worst, he will take a fall for the team.

 

It's that or I rip their arms off for Lightning Claws, a weapon I prefered the appearance of anyways. Just any IC character that is tooled for combat is likely to kill the wolf guard anyway reguardless as to weather he carries a fist or not. All these work heavily to our advantage because we are unique in that we have a guy with a power weapon who can't be challanged out. Most codexes have a sargent to carry the weapons.

 

Another good thing is that we are not required to take power fists anymore as much as we were used to anyways. Sure, AP 2 is fantastic and nessiary for dealing with termnatiors, but the dreads are not as such a huge worry as they used to. (any squad can reasonably get into CC and have a chance to kill it, in stark comparsion to earlier) and only a small number of units gain a huge benfit from the weapon changing rules (Termies get tougher to special weapons, but weight of firepower will still bring them down). I would happily say that these changes only mean changing the purpose of the wolf guard to carry a different special weapon, not make their purpose void entirely.

 

 

Plus the challange thing can play out to ones favour. Being able to stop a IC from destorying the unit by giving up one in a heroic battle. Plus termie sarge finally have a use over traditional pa. I am eyeing up my assualt cannon model with some interest now.

[fjgarces]

You better kill more enemy TDAs by shooting plasma in a GH pack than with a lone PF WG in HtH. If you fear the enemy IC, don't let him to charge you early, you can move and fire your bolters and plasma weapons accurately since you: 1) Can move and shoot at long range with rapid fire weapons 2) you can pre-measure distances.

 

Like a Spanish bullfighter, you can make that the TDA assault squad or the terrible IC and his unit following your GH pack, enter into others GH or LF or something fire range and after that, shoot them to the death.

[Xeenos]

Wolf Priest Mark of Hunter PP

WG 2xPP

10 GH

2 P.Guns

Whatever else.

 

Xeenos, I'm glad to see that you are considering the "Valerian-pattern" Grey Hunter Pack ;)

 

Now if only I can actually get a game in, so that I can use it myself.

 

V

 

Shame ive been little more then a theory crafter sense 3rd Ed. or id let you know how it works. Cant see it NOT Working well.