Fear to tread

[Sublime Heresy]

Glad to see that somebody else thought it just wasn't very good. I was beginning to think I was alone :)

 

Like i said in my post, everybody just felt so shallow and uninteresting. it's a damned shame, and this is why I think Swallow is just not that good. Contrast his characters with ADB, McNeill or even Abnett and there's SUCH a huge difference. You CARE about characters like Talos, Honsou, or the Ghosts. I genuinely wouldn't be bothered if none of the BA ones turned up again.

[Arachnid99]

Exactly it's been months since I read The First Heretic but I have a vivid mental image the character of Argal Tal and Xaphen. The only Blood Angels character I have a mental image of is Sanguinius and that's mostly due to other bits of fluff. All the normal marines except Amit are just placeholder marines like you'd find in a one page piece of fluff in a codex or Imperial Armour book.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Glad to see that somebody else thought it just wasn't very good. I was beginning to think I was alone :unsure:

 

Like i said in my post, everybody just felt so shallow and uninteresting. it's a damned shame, and this is why I think Swallow is just not that good. Contrast his characters with ADB, McNeill or even Abnett and there's SUCH a huge difference. You CARE about characters like Talos, Honsou, or the Ghosts. I genuinely wouldn't be bothered if none of the BA ones turned up again.

 

I have to agree. I didn't feel anything for the characters except Sanguinius and Kano. I think he could have eliminated a few characters, especially the SW's and dug deeper into the motivations of each character.

[warpedphonecian]

@Lord_Caerolion: That's a good point; i forgot that the custodes were dispatched under the emperor's authority in The First Heretic

 

In response to some of the posters saying the characters were boring/underdeveloped: I thought that Raldoron, Meros and Kano were engaging. I found myself wondering how Swallow could portray the BA in light of their 'refined aesthetic sense' in comparison, say, to the Emperor's children...He describes them to be methodical in their sweeping of the first two planets of signus, in an arguably plain manner,

but when the red thirst kicks in, I as a reader became very aware of the stark contrast in the marines' conduct. I liked that the blood angels didn't have too much backstory or drama because I felt it played into the fact that they walk a narrow path between sanity and damnation. you don't need to emphathize with them, you need to know what is always at stake so long as they live.

 

 

This is first loyalist book from the HH that i enjoyed for those reasons; it is easier to flesh out a backstory to justify turning against Terra,, but this is about a legion staying loyal in spite of a grave gene flaw that turns them from civilized, humble warriors into -arguably- world eaters. i love bowden and mcneill, but they hit and miss as well. i think this is definately a direct hit for swallow.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Just over halfway through and I like the book.

 

Lets be clear, Dan Abnet and ADB are the best writers Black library have. However I think many people do the rest of the BL authors a diservice by judging every book as if it should of been written by these two authors, I see this time and again.

 

I have always liked Swallow's work, mainly because I'm such an old timer with the hobby I don't get all hot and bothered when someone dares to write counter to what many see as set in stone fluff. I remember a time when Blood Angels had no special features other than their red armour.

 

So far I have found the book fun and intruiging, I like Swallow's discriptions of chaos and the Astarte's reaction to this sense of impossibility made real. I like how Swallow adapts the "space vampire" theme in a way that isn't cheesey or overwhelming, such as the way he describes the pronounced canines in a conversation between two angels who are talking about how they percieve a brother chapter (and how that chapter may well percieve them).

 

He's not perfect is our Jim, I do feel the characters could of had a bit more work. Swallow is good at battle descriptions, I loved how his characters use proper battle tactics and ho Raldoran is a professional soldier in normal armour and carrying a bolter rather than the rather stereotypical Terminator that seems to be the standard for 1st company captains. In some ways I prefer his style of combat to that of Abnet, however Abnet is great at making you fall in love with a character before killing the poor bastard before your eyes. I felt that the humility and nobility that are the hallmarks of the legion where a bit lacking.

 

Sure, not the best book of the series, but a worthy addition and a good read.

[Arachnid99]

Lets be clear, Dan Abnet and ADB are the best writers Black library have. However I think many people do the rest of the BL authors a diservice by judging every book as if it should of been written by these two authors, I see this time and again.

 

Call me a perfectionist but I always judge BL books against Abnett and ADB, just like I judge rugby teams against the All Blacks and 100 meter runners against Usain Bolt. They are the best in the field and inevitably all comparisons are against them. I live in hope for the day when we I put down a BL book and I can happily post "this guy blows Abnett and ADB out of the water". Though of course at that point I'd start comparing all BL fiction to said awesome new guy.

[Sublime Heresy]

*Dons flame retardent suit*

 

I actually prefer McNeill to Abnett.

[Crimson Devil]

Lets be clear, Dan Abnet and ADB are the best writers Black library have. However I think many people do the rest of the BL authors a diservice by judging every book as if it should of been written by these two authors, I see this time and again.

 

Call me a perfectionist but I always judge BL books against Abnett and ADB, just like I judge rugby teams against the All Blacks and 100 meter runners against Usain Bolt. They are the best in the field and inevitably all comparisons are against them. I live in hope for the day when we I put down a BL book and I can happily post "this guy blows Abnett and ADB out of the water". Though of course at that point I'd start comparing all BL fiction to said awesome new guy.

 

Perfectionist are never happy. You should consider whether you would really like BAs written by Abnett any better. Many UM and SW fans are critical of his work. Writing for the big name chapters will always be problematic regardless of talent. Their stories have been defined long enough and opinions of the fans have cemented to the point few writers would ever be able to due them justice. Hell even fans don't agree on the background they have read. Look up some of the BA vampire/fangs threads to see.

[Sons of Horus]

I thought Ka'Bandha was supposed to beat the crap out of Sanguinius. Now I don't feel like their showdown on Terra is gonna be any good :)

[Arachnid99]

I thought Ka'Bandha was supposed to beat the crap out of Sanguinius. Now I don't feel like their showdown on Terra is gonna be any good :)

 

So did I, maybe Sanguinius will get beaten up by another Bloodthirster who he can then triumph over at Terra's walls.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I thought Ka'Bandha was supposed to beat the crap out of Sanguinius. Now I don't feel like their showdown on Terra is gonna be any good :confused:

 

This is, perhaps, my biggest disapointment. What made KNF so good wa seeing the Ultramarines broken before they rose up and kicked Word Bearer fundament, it made the victory that much more satisfying.

 

Sanguinius should of had his butt handed to him on a silver plate, tied in a pretty red and bronze ribbon so that his payback on Terra would be so awesome.

[Saa]

I've gotta say....I'm less than a hundred pages through. I've read this this thread with interest. I've read every HH book so far and have vocally expressed my opinions on shining stars such as The First Heretic and Prospero Burns (screw you haters) as well as travesties like BftA (I refuse to type its full name on principal)........but Fear to Tread has got me wet and unecessary ..........

 

Horus and Sanguinius' interplay so far has made the 'end game' so much more painful already...........oh Horus....what did you do ...........

 

Saa

 

....or something like that

[sponsra]

I've gotta say....I'm less than a hundred pages through. I've read this this thread with interest. I've read every HH book so far and have vocally expressed my opinions on shining stars such as The First Heretic and Prospero Burns (screw you haters) as well as travesties like BftA (I refuse to type its full name on principal)........but Fear to Tread has got me wet and unecessary ..........

 

Horus and Sanguinius' interplay so far has made the 'end game' so much more painful already...........oh Horus....what did you do ...........

 

Saa

 

....or something like that

 

Agreed!

[Saa]

I've gotta say too though.....pg 66.....Cador saying 'Throne's sake' made me think.....................uuuuuuuurgh learn your background Mr Blood Angel........or quit Quantum Leaping.....what 'Throne' are you refering to during this time period.............

 

Damn I'm pedantic

 

 

Saa

 

........or something like that

[warpedphonecian]

I thought Ka'Bandha was supposed to beat the crap out of Sanguinius. Now I don't feel like their showdown on Terra is gonna be any good :devil:

 

 

hmm... did i not read carefully? The fight can still be good, but more in response to Arachnid99:

 

didn't sanguinious throw ka'bandha into something of a 'warp portal?' even giving him a message to bring to his 'master?'. i was expecting Sanguinius to have been more gravely wounded, but there may still be a fight btween him and ka'bandha at the eternity gate...

 

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Not having finished the book yet and having skipped reading the posts here, one thing I'd really like to put out there is:

 

I'm just over halfway through the book and have gotten this far almost effortlessly but I can honestly say that nothing that's happened previously has stuck and that to me is a sign of a poorly written story.

[Arachnid99]

hmm... did i not read carefully? The fight can still be good, but more in response to Arachnid99:

 

didn't sanguinious throw ka'bandha into something of a 'warp portal?' even giving him a message to bring to his 'master?'. i was expecting Sanguinius to have been more gravely wounded, but there may still be a fight btween him and ka'bandha at the eternity gate...

 

 

He did throw Ka'Bandha into a warp portal so Ka'Bandha is still around and can still meet Sanguinius at the Eternity Gate. But it won't mean much now. This was an arc that stretched the 7 years. A naive Sanguinius unaware of the power of the warp gets beaten by the mightiest of Khorne's servants, he then then spend the next 7 years killing traitors and generally taking an A-level in daemon killing before squaring up for a rematch at the Eternity Gate, the keystone of the greatest and most important battle in the history of the universe. That would have been a bloody big deal. A truly iconic moment that echoes through eternity.

That's lost now; in this book we had Sanguinius beat up Ka'Bandha, get knocked over by a trick and then see 500 Legionaries die. He retreats, regroups and comes back and evens the score. Which is a standard bit of storytelling with a variation seen in most heroic fantasy/sci fi books at your local Waterstones, but it's nothing special. Now when Sanguinius and Ka'Bandha meet up at the Eternity Gate Sanguinius will just be doing a repeat performance, banishing a daemon he's already banished once before. I'm sure it'll be a good fight, Ka'Bandha is still a pretty tough adversary but the drama of the moment has been lost. We can't have a scene half way through the Heresy where Sanguinius tells some Khornate daemon to go running to his master (Ka'Bandha) and tell him Sanguinius is ready for a rematch. We can't have the terror in the defenders hearts as Ka'Bandha steps forward, the fear that Sanguinius will lose again, the Gate will be lost and the Palace will fall, Sanguinius is going into the fight as the favourite now, not the underdog. The mountain has become a molehill.

 

[gogmagog]

To be honest, the Blood Angel fluff in the heresy is probably the tightest in all the story. Who ever got the gig would have adhere a fairly strict story line. James Swallow does a great piece of work. Remember Sanguinius is next to Horus in lots of ways, and if kicks several types of :cusse out of some demon,i, BELIEVE IT. His sacrifice is the greatest of all, and thats waht needs to be kept at the front of all retelling.

[warpedphonecian]

hmm... did i not read carefully? The fight can still be good, but more in response to Arachnid99:

 

didn't sanguinious throw ka'bandha into something of a 'warp portal?' even giving him a message to bring to his 'master?'. i was expecting Sanguinius to have been more gravely wounded, but there may still be a fight btween him and ka'bandha at the eternity gate...

 

 

He did throw Ka'Bandha into a warp portal so Ka'Bandha is still around and can still meet Sanguinius at the Eternity Gate. But it won't mean much now. This was an arc that stretched the 7 years. A naive Sanguinius unaware of the power of the warp gets beaten by the mightiest of Khorne's servants, he then then spend the next 7 years killing traitors and generally taking an A-level in daemon killing before squaring up for a rematch at the Eternity Gate, the keystone of the greatest and most important battle in the history of the universe. That would have been a bloody big deal. A truly iconic moment that echoes through eternity.

That's lost now; in this book we had Sanguinius beat up Ka'Bandha, get knocked over by a trick and then see 500 Legionaries die. He retreats, regroups and comes back and evens the score. Which is a standard bit of storytelling with a variation seen in most heroic fantasy/sci fi books at your local Waterstones, but it's nothing special. Now when Sanguinius and Ka'Bandha meet up at the Eternity Gate Sanguinius will just be doing a repeat performance, banishing a daemon he's already banished once before. I'm sure it'll be a good fight, Ka'Bandha is still a pretty tough adversary but the drama of the moment has been lost. We can't have a scene half way through the Heresy where Sanguinius tells some Khornate daemon to go running to his master (Ka'Bandha) and tell him Sanguinius is ready for a rematch. We can't have the terror in the defenders hearts as Ka'Bandha steps forward, the fear that Sanguinius will lose again, the Gate will be lost and the Palace will fall, Sanguinius is going into the fight as the favourite now, not the underdog. The mountain has become a molehill.

 

 

 

where is this original version of their rivalry? i'd like to take a look at it. for a reader ignorant of it like myself, i expect to enjoy the ridiculous scale of the demon attack at the eternity gate and Sanguinius being the only one to stand against it. in the same fashion, i take more from the desperate struggle against daemons in hopeless situations at terra and on signus, but that would have been one heck of a story arc.

[lost_angel]

@WP - You should be able to find it in the Horus Heresy - Collected Visions books. Have to agree with Arachnid though;

Sang owned the bloodthirster. In doing this, Swallow's sadly taken away any anticipation I have for seeing round 2 at the eternity gates.

I think part of the problem is that we've already seen primarchs coming up trumps against greater daemons and eldar avatars and come up trumps on nearly all occasions. It seems like BL are reluctant to break this habit now even at the cost of enhancing the overall story.

[The Colossus]

I would have liked to see Sanguinus remain wounded and have his legion fight back the Bloodthirster- at great loss of course. It is difficult though, he was supposed to win the fight, but only just...

[Haranin]

The old version is like being a Trojan, watching Hektor walk out to face Achilles. You *KNOW* he is going to die.

 

And then he wins.

 

The new version is awful. I can't believe they threw out that away.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

Ok, finished the book and I've changed allot of my opinions.

 

I went into this as a proud Blood Angel fanboy who had read collected visions and made the same mistake as many ultrasmurf fanboys did with KNF. I should no better, I've been playing since rogue trader and should expect changes to previously published material. I'm not gonna fill this with spoilers but I will note some salient points. I think FTT is a great book and does Sanguinius and the Blood Angels justice.

 

1) Nobility and Humility.

 

These concepts are, by their nature, quiet and subtle. On first view I found the BA lacking in these divining qualities and then i started to consider what these virtues are and what they mean.

 

Take Raldoran as an example. The first captains of the the other chapters like the Sons of Horus, Death Guard, Ultramarines, Night Lords, Iron Hands and Word Bearers stand out like a sore thumb. They are PROUD of their rank and position and they where armour and sport trophies, equipment and symbols of rank to stand out, to make the point and let nobody doubt who and what they are.

Raldoran wears no special armour, no gaudy symols of rak and position. He carries boltgun, powersword and bolt pistol, the weapons of any other officer. His men know him, respect him and follow his lead. Raldoran is humble by his very nature.

 

Nobility is a hard trait to nail down, at one point does nobility become arrogance? You see the Blood Angels act with arrogance at times, you see their worst natures and their best. However one theme runs through the novel and that is how they treat humans, they treat them with a compassion and respect second only to that of Salamanders. Several times you see Blood Angels risk themselves to protect humans, you see them noble by their deeds on a subtle and understated level. I compare how they are written to other chapters and you do see their nobility and humility shine through. Jim doesn't throw it in your face and I have grown to like that way of portraying the Blood Angels.

 

2) Sanguinius.

 

If one thing and one thing alone can be said about Fear To Tread, it would be that Jim Swallow nailed Sanguinius and nailed it good. The Angel was well written and portrayed with brilliance, perhaps too well as he did overshadow some of the other characters. It could be argued that Sanguinius SHOULD overshadow as he is one of the greatest of the Primarchs and perhaps the only true rival to Horus.

 

His emotions, his humanity, every aspect of Sanguinius was, in my most humble of opinions, brilliant.

 

3) The Blood Angels:

 

Jim understands the Blood Angels on an emotional level and writes them well (I may well be burned at the stake for these words by my fellow BA fanboys). The battle between their rage and their discipline was handled well and characters where shown controlling it and succumbing to it in descriptive and imaginitive ways. He portrays them as disciplined, professional soldiers who utilise tactics and strategy on a level that would make even an Ultramarine proud. Which makes their bloodcrazed frenzy all the more lamentable and poignant.

 

4) Chaos:

 

Jim did a really good job with the descriptions of the daemons, their tactics, strategy and nature. Often daemons are reduced to disposable bad guys (much the way Erebus seems to be treated), however you really started to know the greater daemons and the Bloodthirster proved to be more than a "hulk smash" stereotype. I found their arguments a bit childish at times but I felt they where well written as a whole. The descriptions of the scenery and effects of chaos was very good and he managed to create a sense of mounting horror and dread using the ordinary humans well in this regard.

 

5) Battles:

 

Jim Swallow is one of the BL's best battlefield authors, every battle scene was well written and fluid without seeming contrived. He manages to balance between details and drama very well. While nothing has yet equaled the rain of baneblades from KNF, several scenes came close, especialy Sanguinius' battle scenes.

[Týr]

It has already been said but it's so fitting it needs to be said again: The book was not bad. Just not great.

 

For me it was the biggest dissapointment since battle for the abyss.

 

There are some main problems with the book. First are the characters which are extremely flat and booring. I didn't care for anyone, and far too few died IMO. The battles was also only medicore. It lacked the detail, care and WOW! effect of KNF, The First Heretic and so on. Instead of the slooow drag towards Signus Prime, I would rather see a prolonged and really dirty battle. Too much of the battle was touched upon too lightly. The Fight between Sanguinius and Ka'Bandha ended far too quickly and abruptly.

 

Then there is the problem ablot the face of the legion. The Legion wasn't introduced properly. It had no soul or character to it. It was just standard codex marines painted red. It was really rare that I Felt: "hey this is really the IX Legion". It didn't have any face I could recognize. The legion felt like the bloody Slender man of Astartes.

 

And the whole thing about the Red Tear's size and crash. First off it felt way too small. Many ships in the Ultra fleet at calth was 10+ km with Macragge's Honour being a whooping 25 km. 15 km would have seen like a much more fitting size for the battleship.

And then the book just became outright stupid when the ship crashed and didn't turn into a crater 100+ km in diameter.

The mass of the starship is so great and it's velocity upon impact so huge, that it would have been completely "annihilated". It would be a Life-destroyer impact. I'm sure the author could have come up with a smarter way to bring the battheship down. Before everybody jumps me and start shouting "hey man it's just sci-fi and fiction". Yeah but that's not an invitation to write a section in the book that is outright stupid and contradicts common physics.

 

Overall the book just suffered som severe lack of immagination. It just felt like a prolonged bunch of standard GW fluff. Dan Abnett did a great job describing warp creatures going crazy aboard Macragge's Honour in KNF. fantastic immaginative things. This book just included a bunch of boring standard GW daemons...zzz...zz

 

Objective not a bad book but not a good one either. Personally I'm very dissapointed. Now i'm done letting out all my BS. Just had to let it out because this book really annoyed me.

[Saa]

Well I finished it and I'm left feeling a little numb.

 

Firstly I've gotta say, this guy writes Chaos well. Really well. Perhaps he should consider branching out deeper into tales of the ruinous powers rather than Blood Angels. Sanguinius was really well portrayed. I've always been a bit anti 'Primarchs exposition' as it humanises these Demi Gods too much for my liking, however this is a Primarch that can be humanised.

 

I bit my lip as he confided in Horus about the BA curse, I gnashed my teeth as Horus told Ka'Banda that his brother had to die and I railed at the heartache Sanguinius felt knowing Horus had betrayed him..........the other BA characters......I couldn't give a rats ass about. That is where this book failed in my eyes.

 

It doesn't suck, I enjoyed it. Quite a lot, I even jacked work today to finish it. It fleshed out a great part of the HH and gave me a Sanguinius I expected and gave me a glorious, dark and majestic Chaos. But the characters just wernt there to pad the void between Primarch action and Chaos glory

 

Saa

 

.....or something like that