Fear to tread

[Legatus]

On Monarchia, at one point Lorgar lashes out and strikes Guilliman across the chest with his maul. Guilliman does not retaliate and simply stands up, finishes his task to inform Lorgar of the Emperor's orders, and leaves. Later when Lorgar speaks to Magnus about the incident he expresses how good it felt to strike down Guilliman in his arrogance, to which Magnus seemingly (though not explicitely) agrees that some of their brothers could need a bit of reining in.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

On Monarchia, at one point Lorgar lashes out and strikes Guilliman across the chest with his maul. Guilliman does not retaliate and simply stands up, finishes his task to inform Lorgar of the Emperor's orders, and leaves. Later when Lorgar speaks to Magnus about the incident he expresses how good it felt to strike down Guilliman in his arrogance, to which Magnus seemingly (though not explicitely) agrees that some of their brothers could need a bit of reining in.

 

and we all know how 2 traitor primarchs are the best source for unbiased opinions...

 

heck, even before they were traitors, both Magnus and Lorgar earned the dislike of their siblings. for instance, Corax refused to fight alongside Magnus and his Thousand Sons.

 

WLK

[Legatus]

and we all know how 2 traitor primarchs are the best source for unbiased opinions...

 

heck, even before they were traitors, both Magnus and Lorgar earned the dislike of their siblings. for instance, Corax refused to fight alongside Magnus and his Thousand Sons.

That had been just one of five examples I cited where the authors have their protagonists or factions express a dislike for Guilliman or the Ultramarines. And of course I was mentioning it because of Magnus, not because of Lorgar. (Neither did I cite 'Legion', since the Alpha Legion similarly do have a legitimate history of animosity towards the Ultramarines.)

 

And why should Magnus dislike Guilliman in particular? During the Council of Nikaea it mentions an Ultramarines Librarian who speaks up in defense of the Librarium project. The Ultramarines were known to preserve the culture of the worlds they conquered, and Guilliman was described as willing to learn about the doctrines of others. Ahriman is even speaking of those traits in a seemingly appreciative manner in 'A Thousand Sons'. In 'Battle for the Abyss' when an allied Thousand Sons Librarian uses sorcery, the Ultramarines Captain steps in and defends him when the allied Space Wolves and World Eaters went for his throat.

I can imagine that Guilliman was as weary about the questionable rituals of the Thousand Sons as the next Primarch, but among Magnus's brothers, he was one of the more progressive and open minded. I could even have seen Magnus appreciating Guilliman over Lorgar by a long shot. But in 'The First Heretic' A D-B has him think of Guilliman mainly as one of the arrogant ones instead. (To be fair, Magnus is not very explicite. It is still possibele he was simply "not disagreeing" with Lorgar at that moment and tried to wave away the issue of Lorgar's dislike to go back to the important topics. But it certainly is easier to cite this incident as an example of disapproval of Guilliman rather than to dismiss it on grounds of Magnus simply politely dancing around the matter.)

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I think it has less to do with Magnus' not respecting Guilliman and his ideals and more to do with the fact that Guilliman has always been represented in the fluff as being an exceptionally proud man. He's no vain peacock like Fulgrim, mind, but he has always seemed to me to lack tact when amongst his brothers. A case in point being the chastising he gave Alpharius over the Tesstra campaign, when Horus' simple pat on the back and "attaboy!" was a much better response. So I can definitely see Magnus agreeing with Lorgar that Guilliman's "down a notch"-ing has to do with teaching the Poster Boy a little humility (which is in and of itself hilariously ironic since Magnus is the one who had extreme problems with hubris).

[yhta]

mmmm. i see that he refered to other primarchs went he said that. maybe thinking in other primarch like russ(who can be a little douche sometimes) fulgrim(more arrogance and less noble) and maybe horus. i belive that is more magnus thinking about some of his brothers like that. something typical in this teenager demigods.

[Legatus]

This is starting to go somewhat offtopic, so I just have to remind myself that this issue was initially raised because 'Fear to Tread' hints at the possibility of a cooperation between the Ultramarines and the Blood Angels in the future.

 

I think it has less to do with Magnus' not respecting Guilliman and his ideals and more to do with the fact that Guilliman has always been represented in the fluff as being an exceptionally proud man. He's no vain peacock like Fulgrim, mind, but he has always seemed to me to lack tact when amongst his brothers. A case in point being the chastising he gave Alpharius over the Tesstra campaign, when Horus' simple pat on the back and "attaboy!" was a much better response. So I can definitely see Magnus agreeing with Lorgar that Guilliman's "down a notch"-ing has to do with teaching the Poster Boy a little humility (which is in and of itself hilariously ironic since Magnus is the one who had extreme problems with hubris).

I dunno. Not only is Guilliman's interaction with Alpharius contrasted by other instances where he appreciated and even adopted the ideas of his brothers, Guilliman's role in the Index Astartes article of the Alpha Legion was written in as a replacement for the Imperial Fists, who had been described as feuding with the Alpha Legion in the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Space Marines. I can only guess that this was perhaps done because the Imperial Fists had already been depicted as fighting through a planetary trap in the Iron Warriors's and their own Index Astartes article, and GW did not want them to go through a similar episode again with the Alpha Legion. So instead of the Imperial Fists opposing the Alpha Legion, they replaced them with Guilliman and the Ultramarines as the "stuck up" and "rigidly organised Legion" to go up against. The consequence is that the references to the "rigid Codex Astartes" and the Ultramarines' inability to cope with guerilla warfare in mountainous terrain (and both Legions having the same amount of Thunderhawks) seem out of place. All of that would have made so much more sense if the Alpha Legion had been pitched against Dorn and the Imperial Fists, who had been described as very rigidly organised in their own article and who were much better at static, pre-planned warfare than at a fluid guerilla/dense terrain type of warfare. So, aside from the Codex doctrine thus being misrepresented as rigid and inflexible, and the Ultramarines not being able to fight effectively in mountainous terrain, this also meant that Guilliman would be represented as dismissing the doctrines of the Alpha Legion. To a lot of players this was a sign that Guilliman was arrogant towards his brothers. To me it was instead a sign that Alpharius' doctrines were truly horrible for the purpose of the Great Crusade.

[Dark Apostle Erebus]

I think it has less to do with Magnus' not respecting Guilliman and his ideals and more to do with the fact that Guilliman has always been represented in the fluff as being an exceptionally proud man. He's no vain peacock like Fulgrim, mind, but he has always seemed to me to lack tact when amongst his brothers. A case in point being the chastising he gave Alpharius over the Tesstra campaign, when Horus' simple pat on the back and "attaboy!" was a much better response. So I can definitely see Magnus agreeing with Lorgar that Guilliman's "down a notch"-ing has to do with teaching the Poster Boy a little humility (which is in and of itself hilariously ironic since Magnus is the one who had extreme problems with hubris).

I agree, I think it's more a perception of Guilliman being proud, aloof and arrogant than anything else. This is seemingly reinforced during the events on Khur, where Roboute stands by emotionless whilst Lorgar and his legion are rebuked, and even though Lorgar is clearly unbalanced by all that has happened, you are left feeling quite happy that Lorgar has struck down old starch arse. In Know No Fear Guilliman is quite different though and it is clear that whilst he doesn't really respect Lorgar (due to him being moody and irrational), he does look at what he had to do on Khur with sadness and regret. Overall it was refreshing from reading the book to see that my perceptions of Guilliman's personality were wrong, to the point that you are left feeling that Lorgar was wrong in his perception of Guilliman but Guilliman was right in t his perception of Lorgar.

[Bulwyf]

What bothered me about this book is that in previous HH novels where we had an indepth look at a Legion for the first time you got at least some historical fluff to explain where they came from, what the Legion was like pre-primarch and how the primarch did on his respective world before the Big E came by and how the Legion changed after the primarch joined them.

 

In this book? You got absolutely none of that information. As someone said before in this thread we know just as much about the Blood Angels before the death of Sanguinius as we did before the book came out. I was hoping for more quite frankly. I hope the upcoming Heresy books that feature Legions we haven't really seen much of (Iron Warriors/White Scars) give some information on them.

 

I also found it odd that despite how close Horus was to Sanguinius he made no effort at all to try and convince him to turn. I always found it bizarre that every primarch Horus must have talked about turning traitor agreed to do so and yet we don't have any primarchs that he talked to that refused to do so. If he was closest to Sanguinius and Horus was this master manipulator why couldn't he at least tried to work his mojo on him?

[Blindhamster]

in the book it is explained that he would not even consider trying to convince Sanguinius because he felt that Sanguinius was the only primarch that could become his rival in the eyes of the Chaos Gods he'd thrown his lot in with. Therefore making it easier to aim to take the legion and kill the primarch - it's also possible that he didn't want the constant reminder of who he had once been that Sanguinius would surely have been.

 

I agree that the book was sorely lacking in info on what the legion was like pre-primarch, what changed for them and even how they really looked. Having said that, I guess it is important to avoid sort of 'painting by numbers' and writing each book to the same formula... still I'm hopefully we'll get that information from -somewhere- be it a HH novel or a newer novel, seems likely we'll get some of it in the upcoming flesh tearer novel.

 

god what I'd give for David Annandale to write a full length novel about Mephiston...

[Bulwyf]

in the book it is explained that he would not even consider trying to convince Sanguinius because he felt that Sanguinius was the only primarch that could become his rival in the eyes of the Chaos Gods he'd thrown his lot in with. Therefore making it easier to aim to take the legion and kill the primarch - it's also possible that he didn't want the constant reminder of who he had once been that Sanguinius would surely have been.

 

I agree that the book was sorely lacking in info on what the legion was like pre-primarch, what changed for them and even how they really looked. Having said that, I guess it is important to avoid sort of 'painting by numbers' and writing each book to the same formula... still I'm hopefully we'll get that information from -somewhere- be it a HH novel or a newer novel, seems likely we'll get some of it in the upcoming flesh tearer novel.

 

god what I'd give for David Annandale to write a full length novel about Mephiston...

 

Actually Horus explicitly denied that he saw Sanguinius as a rival; you are inferring that from what the demons said to him when they were taunting Horus. That may be what we as the reader are to infer as the reason Horus made no attempt to sway Sanguinius but Horus never actually said that. I know he insisted to the Word Bearer and the Khorne demon that Sanguinius would never turn but we also saw that Horus made absolutely no attempt to do so. You would think he at least would have tried to feel him out but perhaps Horus was truly jealous of how Sanguinius was viewed by the other primarchs and didn't fancy the competition.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

and we all know how 2 traitor primarchs are the best source for unbiased opinions...

 

heck, even before they were traitors, both Magnus and Lorgar earned the dislike of their siblings. for instance, Corax refused to fight alongside Magnus and his Thousand Sons.

 

And why should Magnus dislike Guilliman in particular?

 

I dont believe Magnus was agreeing that Guilliman needed o be knocked down a peg or two, but was nursing his own grudge and agreeing on the broad topic.

 

like a pair of drunks in a "serious" convo, both are speaking the same language but are focused on themselves.

 

WLK

[Febelcrofas]

I also found it odd that despite how close Horus was to Sanguinius he made no effort at all to try and convince him to turn. I always found it bizarre that every primarch Horus must have talked about turning traitor agreed to do so and yet we don't have any primarchs that he talked to that refused to do so. If he was closest to Sanguinius and Horus was this master manipulator why couldn't he at least tried to work his mojo on him?

 

I think this represents horus really having fallen by now, he sees Sanguinius as a threat to his power should he be turned. He also said himself that he didnt think he could be turned from the emperor. I think if he thought Sanguinius would play ball but still play second fiddle to him he would have tried himself to turn him. Then again maybe horus was scared to try as if Sanguinius said no.......whoop ass......can of............victory goes to?

 

As to second point, let us not forget fulgrim's botched attempt to get ferrus on side, I think horus tried all those he knew he could turn personally and tried what he thought was the best lever to get others, to varying degrees of success!

[Blindhamster]

in the book it is explained that he would not even consider trying to convince Sanguinius because he felt that Sanguinius was the only primarch that could become his rival in the eyes of the Chaos Gods he'd thrown his lot in with. Therefore making it easier to aim to take the legion and kill the primarch - it's also possible that he didn't want the constant reminder of who he had once been that Sanguinius would surely have been.

 

I agree that the book was sorely lacking in info on what the legion was like pre-primarch, what changed for them and even how they really looked. Having said that, I guess it is important to avoid sort of 'painting by numbers' and writing each book to the same formula... still I'm hopefully we'll get that information from -somewhere- be it a HH novel or a newer novel, seems likely we'll get some of it in the upcoming flesh tearer novel.

 

god what I'd give for David Annandale to write a full length novel about Mephiston...

 

Actually Horus explicitly denied that he saw Sanguinius as a rival; you are inferring that from what the demons said to him when they were taunting Horus. That may be what we as the reader are to infer as the reason Horus made no attempt to sway Sanguinius but Horus never actually said that. I know he insisted to the Word Bearer and the Khorne demon that Sanguinius would never turn but we also saw that Horus made absolutely no attempt to do so. You would think he at least would have tried to feel him out but perhaps Horus was truly jealous of how Sanguinius was viewed by the other primarchs and didn't fancy the competition.

 

In at least one of the other books, might be more, Horus has noted that Sanguinius should've been the warmaster, that coupled with some of the dialogues in fear to tread and the daemons taunting certainly leads me to believe that the Daemons are correct and it was more out of fear of competition than anything else, though it is also possible that due to Horus' line in one of the first three books about Sanguinius being the one that had the Emperors heart and soul (paraphrased) maybe Horus truly did believe there was no way he could sway Sanguinius?

[Febelcrofas]

In at least one of the other books, might be more, Horus has noted that Sanguinius should've been the warmaster, that coupled with some of the dialogues in fear to tread and the daemons taunting certainly leads me to believe that the Daemons are correct and it was more out of fear of competition than anything else, though it is also possible that due to Horus' line in one of the first three books about Sanguinius being the one that had the Emperors heart and soul (paraphrased) maybe Horus truly did believe there was no way he could sway Sanguinius?

 

This is a good point, I'd forgotten about that. Also it stands to reason that as Horus was so close to Sanguinius he of all people would know if he could be turned.

 

Didn't Horus state in on of the early books, can't remember which one something like "don't worry about sanguinius, I've got that sorted". I remebered it when I read fear to tread and remember thinking that the implication was that Sanguinius would fall in line.

 

Also I think it can't be overstated that Horus would have been pretty nervous about botching the attempt to turn him as Sanguinius is refered to as probably the only other primarch that could have had him in a fight.

[Blindhamster]

Also I think it can't be overstated that Horus would have been pretty nervous about botching the attempt to turn him as Sanguinius is refered to as probably the only other primarch that could have had him in a fight.

 

Actually Sanguinius is noted as being one of three Primarchs that had been able to beat Horus when sparring. None of the others are noted as being able to... Cannot remember if one of the other three was Russ or Angron, but I'm pretty sure I remember Guilliman being the third... though considering how he fared vs Kor Phaeron... maybe not :/

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Also I think it can't be overstated that Horus would have been pretty nervous about botching the attempt to turn him as Sanguinius is refered to as probably the only other primarch that could have had him in a fight.

 

Actually Sanguinius is noted as being one of three Primarchs that had been able to beat Horus when sparring. None of the others are noted as being able to... Cannot remember if one of the other three was Russ or Angron, but I'm pretty sure I remember Guilliman being the third... though considering how he fared vs Kor Phaeron... maybe not :/

 

i've heard Russ could, but could never find it in print.

 

now my inner fan-boy is crying out for proof of this.

 

WLK

[Adra'Melek]

I think in Raven's Flight Corax says he wouldn't be able to beat Angron and said only Horus and Sanguinius could. Doesn't translate on to who could be Horus of course.

[Billuriye]

I think in Raven's Flight Corax says he wouldn't be able to beat Angron and said only Horus and Sanguinius could. Doesn't translate on to who could be Horus of course.

 

Yeah that's about it. Sparring stuff is fan made nonsense.

[Arachnid99]

I can't remember where but someone says the only Primarch who would stand a chance against Angron was Horus and maybe Sanguinius. Going from that my personal ranking system for Primarchs in hand to hand combat is 1. Angron 2. Horus 3. Sanguinius. However Primarch match ups are so dependent on the scenario as to be essentially pointless, e.g. if it's a pitch black maze I'd bet on Corax or Curze over Angron, if Sorcery is involved Magnus is unmatched etc.

[calgar101]

To add fuel to the flames, there was a piece of old fluff that says how Russ and Sanguinius were the only two Primarchs to best him in hand to hand, it goes on to say how Valdor lasted a minute in the sparring session also. However in Primarch v Primarch combat nothing is ever straight forwards and in my mind you can never say who would win. Don't get me wrong certain individuals (Angron, Sanguinius) have an advantage but it is never clear cut.

[Inquisitor Engel]

To be honest, I was just happy Horus sliced Erebus' face off. I liked that.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

To add fuel to the flames, there was a piece of old fluff that says how Russ and Sanguinius were the only two Primarchs to best him in hand to hand, it goes on to say how Valdor lasted a minute in the sparring session also. However in Primarch v Primarch combat nothing is ever straight forwards and in my mind you can never say who would win. Don't get me wrong certain individuals (Angron, Sanguinius) have an advantage but it is never clear cut.

 

please tell me you have a actual source.

 

WLK

[Wade Garrett]

Actually Sanguinius is noted as being one of three Primarchs that had been able to beat Horus when sparring. None of the others are noted as being able to... Cannot remember if one of the other three was Russ or Angron, but I'm pretty sure I remember Guilliman being the third... though considering how he fared vs Kor Phaeron... maybe not :/

 

It's highly unlikely that Horus was shooting Chaos fuelled death beams in the sparring cages, so I wouldn't write Rob off that easily.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

The thing i liked most about this book is the thrice stated name "Phobos", for the Land Raider pattern. I know the term "Godhammer" wont go away any time soon, but it is great to get some ammo for when i fight that battle, again.

[Mykra]

To add fuel to the flames, there was a piece of old fluff that says how Russ and Sanguinius were the only two Primarchs to best him in hand to hand, it goes on to say how Valdor lasted a minute in the sparring session also. However in Primarch v Primarch combat nothing is ever straight forwards and in my mind you can never say who would win. Don't get me wrong certain individuals (Angron, Sanguinius) have an advantage but it is never clear cut.

 

please tell me you have a actual source.

 

WLK

 

Russ could probably win a drinking contest, but that's about it with Horus. Sanguinius benefited from (suffered?) the fact that they could build him up into this near-perfect, golden Primarch that could have been everything great about the Imperium, because he was born to die at Terra. Horus was the same way as he had the 'best of us' qualities, because he was very obviously on the track to become the very worst of them all. So even if something a decade or two old surfaced saying he sparred well vs the Warmaster, I wouldn't read a single thing into it as Horus and Sanguinius clearly had to be the best of the best just to highlight how horrible the final battle was going to be. Not to take away from any other Primarch or add fuel for some insane A>B=C rankings. They were all awesome in their own ways.

 

/Dune: The plot must flow.

 

Back to the book though. Please tell me I wasn't the only one who laughed out loud at the Warden and his 'party bus'? Zipping around a Daemon World on a burned out Mastadon, big bumper sticker that reads 'We Stop For Killin'!', yelling and cheering through the wastes? Paraphrasing, but 'We didn't come to save you, we came to kill them!'

 

Edit: Although I really enjoyed the book, I have to say the Blood Angels having 'preysight' irked me every time I read it. I don't mind them having that same thermal/electromagnetic vision modes, but the name just didn't seem to mesh with me.